Help with air in fuel tank of oil burner after filling

DanHolohan

This in one of the most interesting and educational threads I have ever read. Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge and experience, and for striving to help someone you just met. You are all wonderful human beings. And Kris, thank you for soothing those who have lost best friends.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Well said, @DanHolohan.

Robert O'Brien

http://rolliesystems.com/heaters.php

Jamie Hall

Um... before you start throwing solutions at this, it would help to figure out what the actual problem is... the symptom is clear enough, but what's the problem?

I can see several possibilities.

Actual free water in the fuel.
Entrained water in the fuel (a completely different problem).
Excessive viscosity due to gelling or just cold fuel.
A vacuum leak (going back to @STEVEusaPA 's very first response).

And that list is not complete.

At this point I'd go right back to square one. When does this happen? What are all the conditions when it happens (time of day, air temperature, fuel temperature (or a good guess), whatever). What possibilities may be less likely based on the conditions?

For example (and just for example!): if it's just as bad, or nearly so, on a 50 degree day as it is on a 20 degree day, it's unlikely to be ice from entrained water or excess viscosity. Or if it always, or almost always, happens shortly after a delivery, regardless of the other conditions, it's very likely something about the fuel delivery (at which point, of course, the question is what?!).

This is going to take some sitting back and evaluating what might be causing the problem -- no matter how far fetched it may seem -- and then systematically eliminating possibilities. Don't assume anything!

DanHolohan

At this point I'd go right back to square one. When does this happen? What are all the conditions when it happens (time of day, air temperature, fuel temperature (or a good guess), whatever). What possibilities may be less likely based on the conditions?

@Jamie Hall wise advice.

EdTheHeaterMan

Ok, so tomorrow is Monday and your maintenance day for the appliance. Will you have time to install the pressure gauges and vacuum gauges? Here are the suggested locations for a permanent install of the gauges.

Once you have these in place, you can see what is happening and have the necessary information for locating the problem(s)

Now we are all wearing this old hat

You should see it on Dan. It looks good on him

Zman

Not knowing much about oil heat, my experience with diesel and other fluids makes me suspect gelling and vacuum leaks.
The gelling can be mitigated by additives. You may have a hole that is so small that the viscous oil will never leak out but air quickly rushes in when the pressure in the line goes negative. This was very common in automobiles before they started putting the fuel pump in the tank.

Kris78

@WMno57 regardless of size the burner is never run for less than 1.5 hours. You have to allow the system to make temp & it can not do that even on the honest day of the year if it only runs for 30 minutes.

They system has a thermostat that tells the brain what temp it is at to know when to apply fuel and when not to apply the fuel. The fan is attached to the oil burner it's self both top & bottom burners. My old system we attacked a second fan to assist with combustion burning. it was attached directly to the body of the unit blowing into the body. This system does not have that.

The system goes up to 1400 degrees shuts down the fuel. Once it drops down to just under 1000 degrees it kicks back on until time runs out.

Kris78

@Sootmaster When we call for fuel we stop burning & shut everything down. The system sets for 48 hours or longer depending on the day filled. (we prefer close to the weekend) This allows the system time to settle and normally works well to keep it running correctly. Winter takes us longer to get back up and running.

I recently replaced both fuel pumps this has helped for the most part. It still has issues some days. I swear on the good days you have to stand facing the wind, spit on the ground 3 times, & touch your nose while starting it to get it to take off. I might be missing a step lol

Kris78

@RyanD I have not but that is an excellent idea. I will give it a shot as I swear something if off with the tank.

Kris78

@Jamie Hall those very steps have been taken time & time again. That is what led me here.

I am not a guesser as to how to fix an issue without knowing what caused the issue. These are my thoughts:

2018:
The system is 2 years old. It had issues from the start. Top burner would run bottom wouldn't shut the top off the bottom works. (Original set up had split fuel lines as manufacturer recommended). My thought if they will not run at the same time then one is always taking away from the other. Cure separate the lines allowing each one to have it's own access to the fuel.

That one is just an example of how my brain works.

Current issue that we have been dealing with since the system was put in. If the tank is allowed to get under 1/4 tank of fuel the system will not run correctly. Easy cheap fix fill the tank when it gets to 1/4

Every time regardless of time of year, day, temp, hour that the tank gets filled you must shut everything down & allow the system to set unused for 48 hours at the least or it will not run correctly after filling the tank. If the system is running at time of fill the system will fail & shut down.
Winter makes this issue worse & last longer then 48 hours. At times like last winter the system was down for over a month.

I have made many thoughtful attempts at fixing the issue. Nothing is the 100% fix. Regardless you will always have trial and error on any issue if no one knows how to actually fix it. It's the only way to learn.

Kris78

@DanHolohan Thank you we pride ourselves in our work. Everyone has been ever so helpful & I am very applicative of them sharing their knowledge. This was not a line of work I would have ever imagined myself doing. That said I love my job.

Kris78

@EdTheHeaterMan that is the plan for the afternoon. Fingers crossed to receive helpful information. (Goes off to find her hat)

Kris78

@Zman I have checked the lines to see if we have gotten a leak. I have found none. The other issue with this is it would be a consistent issue not just when we fill the tank or weather conditions. Those are the two factors that are happening when the burner fails.

Jon_blaney

Could it be an issue with the tank vent?

EdTheHeaterMan

Jon_blaney said:

Could it be an issue with the tank vent?

I remember an outside above ground tank at a church we delivered oil to. I thought the loose-fitting plug on the top of the tank could let rainwater in. After completing the delivery, I got pipe dope and tightened the plug to keep the rain out.

3 days later I got a service call and went out to find an hourglass-shaped tank. There was no vent, Dah! Installed a proper vent on the tank and the burner worked just fine.

Dodged a bullet on that one.

Mr. Ed

Kris78

my system:

































Just for fun: Coworker from the wastewater plant thought it looked like a bobsled the day we installed it.

Jon_blaney

Is there only one return line going to the top of the tank?

Did the bypass plug get installed when it was switched to two pipe system? I do not like the design of the supply system. One burner is stealing fuel from the other supply. Back flow from the second burner is easier than drawing fuel through a filter.

pecmsg

I thought the tank was further away?

Jellis

@pecmsg
no you misunderstood a few times... her tank used to be 300' away... she had it moved closer.
@Jon_blaney the return line's on the burners are Teed together and return through the top of the tank.. the supply lines connect back to just after the filter.

I suggested to @Kris78 to move the suction lines to individual top feed lines and filters at the burners.

pecmsg

Thank you for correcting that. 

Why do I see what appears as oil stains on the wall and the ground by those couplings?

STEVEusaPA

That's a lot of fittings...I'd still vacuum check the system, and check running vacuum, especially after you get a delivery and fire it up.
Keep in mind everything is outside, so any moisture will freeze and create problems.
Especially, if you think about it, you get most likely a warm delivery on a very cold day, so you will get condensation, and that will freeze.
I'd wrap (actually I would fix) the whole assembly with heat tape and insulation.
I'd also run that tank pretty low, and get the rest sucked out and the tank cleaned. Then I'd treat every delivery with the proper additive.
I also wouldn't tee the returns together. Any restriction will blow out both fuel pumps.
I'd add nozzle line heaters.

pecmsg

I’d add why No isolation valve on the filter inlet?

T the 3/4” and install Isolation valves and 2 Filters. Another valve to each gun. 

2 separate returners to the tank.  

NO joints between the filters and the guns. 

EdTheHeaterMan

pecmsg said:

I thought the tank was further away?

You really don't pay attention to me!

EdTheHeaterMan

pecmsg said:

Thank you for correcting that. 

Why do I see what appears as oil stains on the wall and the ground by those couplings?

Kris is having problems with the oil system. Every time a fitting is opened to check for oil or air or a clog, I guess some fuel spills and that fuel can make a stain. At least that is what happens when I open live fuel lines during a service call. I carried a variety of containers to minimize spillage, but even I am not perfect.

pecmsg

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Thank you for correcting that. 

Why do I see what appears as oil stains on the wall and the ground by those couplings?

Kris is having problems with the oil system. Every time a fitting is opened to check for oil or air or a clog, I guess some fuel spills and that fuel can make a stain. At least that is what happens when I open live fuel lines during a service call. I carried a variety of containers to minimize spillage, but even I am not perfect.

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Thank you for correcting that. 

Why do I see what appears as oil stains on the wall and the ground by those couplings?

Kris is having problems with the oil system. Every time a fitting is opened to check for oil or air or a clog, I guess some fuel spills and that fuel can make a stain. At least that is what happens when I open live fuel lines during a service call. I carried a variety of containers to minimize spillage, but even I am not perfect.

and I clean UP that mess for the next G U Y ! ! !

EdTheHeaterMan

@Kris78 Were you able to get the vacuum gauges on the fuel pumps today?



Easy to put them on those pumps. BTW they are Wayne EHA oil burners if you wish to purchase parts from someone other than the manufacturer of the appliance. Wayne oil burner parts are available from local oil burner/HVAC/Plumbing suppliers and amazon.com

Zman

If this was a diesel vehicle there would be a low pressure pump at the tank and a high pressure pump at the fuel rail. They are designed that way to mitigate issues like this. I wonder if this is ever done in the fuel oil world. It is a similar fluid and in this case very similar conditions with a cold tank and line.

EdTheHeaterMan

Since the control/electrical system is designed to be plugged into a standard 120V 20Amp outlet, the installation instructions do not include electrical wiring connection diagrams or instructions. The control that operated the burner(s) is proprietary for incinerators and do not come equipped with standard primary controls to stop the fuel pump operation when there is no flame.

Furthermore, there is an oil valve that will allow the main burner fan to continue to operate to provide combustion air for the burn even if the fuel solenoid is off due to over temperature. This means the fuel pump will circulate fuel during the entire burn even if the fuel is not needed. (not the best design since the fuel pump and oil filter will be in use when of by the "high limit")

The second burner (or After Burner) is there to incinerate any biohazards that are not destroyed in the main burner chamber. This burner will operate even if the oil valve for the main burner is off.

All this looks like it should work flawlessly as long as the fuel system provides enough fuel.

I am not a fan of all the fittings on the fuel line. If I had that service customer with over 2 years of problems, I would bite the bullet and install a duplex fitting at the top of the tank. Run 2 new fuel lines direct to the burner with no seams, joints, or fittings. Then I would install a tiger loop ultra at each burner (includes filter) and give the customer a bill and tell them if it does not solve the problem you don't have to pay for it. But that is the way I work. I might even give some credit for the unsuccessful service visits in the past year. I would even bet on operating the burner during a fuel delivery with that setup.

I don't think that is gambling. I think that is what will work.

RyanD

Is the oil supply actually coming off the bottom of the tank? 

Earlier in the thread I think everyone was under the impression it was a dip tube from the top of the tank. Just curious since this would increase the chance of water/sludge getting pulled into the supply lines.

rick in Alaska

I am going to go out on a limb and say the wet spots on the ground are from snow melt.
Almost every tank here is an above ground tank, and I never have problems with the cold, so heat tape and wrapping pipes seems like a big waste of time. Also, since it happened at 50 degrees out, I am also eliminating a freeze problem.
However, I can not quite tell, but the looks of the picture kind of looks like the supply and return on the pumps might be crossed. Maybe you can trace each supply line from the filter to each burner and make sure they go in to the inlet ports.
Those lines are all so short, I would be very surprised if it was any kind of vacuum restriction, unless for some reason the bottom of the tank has some kind of blockage, which would be found if you had the vacuum gauges installed. Also, I am assuming each one of the pumps has the return line plug installed??
There is definitely something really simple being missed here. This system should work just fine the way it is piped, unless something is crossed
Rick

EdTheHeaterMan

pecmsg said:

and I clean UP that mess for the next G U Y ! ! !

As you should! LOL

Kris78

@Jon_blaney Yes, I installed the by pass plug & I make sure it gets installed on any replacement fuel pumps prior to installation.

The lines are separated so that they don't compete for fuel.

Kris78

@pecmsg those because the lines use to be joined & split there. When I changed them over to individual lines there was still fuel in the line as I disconnected them.

Kris78

@EdTheHeaterMan & everyone else: yes, they are on. I actually bought them from Amazon. What girl doesn't buy her crematorium parts and accessories from Amazon? lol

Yesterday all readings where good but yesterday she ran like a champ. Today might be a different story.

Waiting for it to act up again. I refuse to give up & put up with the issue. Though I realize now if I manage to figure this out by making changes. (Which I am only making one change at a time no use making a bunch & not knowing what I did right or wrong)

Top feed does seem like a direction to go. I have also considered having the tank cleaned as it might possibly be half my age. (don't ask) Separate filters would allow me to rule out or prevent both burners going down at the same time. I could also eliminate the thought of the tank being the issue if one is running great & the other is not.

@RyanD Yes, the tank is the only part of this system I did not get to hand pick. It was here years before I was & to save money as I was told the tank & supply have never been the issue we did not make any changes to it or replace it. That is the only part of my whole system that is older than 2 years. The filter is new just replaced it a week ago. (just saying incase someone thinks I was not smart enough to change the filter)

@EdTheHeaterMan I agree I never liked the fittings. I had the system plumed by a local pluming & heating company. When I separated the lines I followed suit with the fittings to get around. I would say I was just as guilty about using fittings at they where. I did not have a pip bender to use when I changed it. I think making them direct without fittings is a great idea.

MY OLD SYSTEM: had CAD eyes that would sense the flame. If no flame burner fail & shuts down. This system does not have that (very much disliked not having them on this one.) The top burner is continual burn. Meaning if I do not make damn sure it lit there could be fuel being dumped & not burned. or if no fuel the system just keeps running the igniter trying to light it. Also you get a TON of smoke & soot blow back through the top burner when it is not running correctly. This is really my only indicator.

The bottom burner: Has a control panel AKA the brain. It works by temperature. there is a rod thermostat located just above it & wired into the control panel. This temperature reading tells the control panel when to give fuel and when to take it away for the burn cycle. If there is no fuel the system will time out & give error burn fail.

@pecmsg my apologies for not cleaning up old stains. I have multiple job titles & responsibilities. Cleaning up the stains takes a back seat on a busy 8 hour plus days of everything going wrong. Also there is no next guy for me unless I am cleaning it up for the day I retire. They are absolutely not fresh & not leaking.

@rick in Alaska Not going down the road of heat tape & insulation again. I did that last winter hoping it would help even had a tank heater on the side of the tank. It was all money wasted & later I found out not permitted by the EPA.

I would almost swear on my life the issue is that old tank needing cleaned. The lines are all run correctly outlet is low at the filter & return dumps back into the top of the fuel tank. We get good fuel return as well.

The plan: 1. Keep an eye on the gages see what happens if & when it acts up.
2. get what I need to check for condensation in the tank.
3. replace the lines eliminating connections. & possibly changing draw location on the tank.
4. Have the tank cleaned or say screw it & replace the damn thing.
5. if all else fails give up & pay someone to come all the way to Iowa & deal with it. (hasn't happened in 8 years so we will see lol)

I very much want to thank you all again. I have not once ever found this much information in all my research. You have all been very helpful. No worries I am not abandoning this forum any time soon or this post.

JUGHNE

Has it been determined if the tank filling process creates a problem that adds air (foam) or stirs up sludge on the bottom feeding the supply lines?

Probably too late to mention, but is NG available there?
I am "only" maybe 300 miles west of you but know little of oil burners.

EdTheHeaterMan

So the tank is less than 12 years old. not that old!

JUGHNE

But it has lived outside with Iowa temp changes, easy 40* TD overnight.
Would that be an issue for internal condensation?
IDK, not an oil guy.

EdTheHeaterMan

JUGHNE said:

But it has lived outside with Iowa temp changes, easy 40* TD overnight.
Would that be an issue for internal condensation?
IDK, not an oil guy.

Yes, it would be however I was replying to the OP quote "Top feed does seem like a direction to go. I have also considered having the tank cleaned as it might possibly be half my age. (don't ask)"

So since water is heavier than oil, the water will be on the bottom. Easy to remove annually at the bottom tank tapping. and easily avoided with top feed (properly installed)

There are inexpensive tank cleaning chemicals that can be added. My favorite was Hot 4 in 1. Super Heat is another. and both are available on Amazon.Com Check often for the lowest price!

JUGHNE

So it seems that the top feed would be the next step?
Nothing wasted as if she went with a new tank as it too should be top feed?