Help with air in fuel tank of oil burner after filling

Kris78

We run a animal cremation oil burner that uses the same type of oil burners as oil burner heating systems. We have an issue with our system that every time we have our fuel tank filled we can not run the burners for 2 to 3 days. They back fire & sputter. If you try to bleed the fuel lines through the burners it is nothing but foamy fuel. We have a fuel filter after the fuel tank then everything runs through copper lines to the fuel pumps on the burners. I can not figure out why when the tank gets filled why we get so much air in the lines & have to wait days for it to settle before we can get it to run correctly. Any thoughts, suggestions, ideas? The tank sits on the ground this is an outside system. Both oil burners have their own feed lines & return lines. All connections have been checked for tightness & leaks. Thank you in advance.

STEVEusaPA

One thing it may be is your tank is fouled. There would only be air in a 2 pipe system if there was a vacuum leak.
The other possibility is that it's not air but high vacuum, which can look like air. Stirring up the oil allows some crud to get to the tank outlet restricting and causing blockage/partial blockage, raising vacuum. Then after a little while, and the vacuum breaks, the crud floats away and everything look normal again.
Usually when changing the filter you can get an indication of the condition of the tank, same with pump strainers, and nozzle screen.
When you bleed a burner, bleed off a pint, and let it sit. See if you notice that it looks like pepto bismo (water in the fuel), or is black, or you actually see separation, water on top, clear like red wine oil on the bottom.
So I'd first check the oil, you can even have a sample sent to a lab.
Then I'd check vacuum.
I'm assuming you are getting oil from an oil provider that doesn't have their own storage and gets their heating oil directly from the refinery.
Some companies will pump out an oil tank during a new tank replacement, or get oil from a customer switching to gas and resell it. One load of that in your tank, and you'll have problems for a long time.
If it turns out to be a fuel issue, treat the tank with every delivery until the filter, strainer and nozzle strainer clean up.

EBEBRATT-Ed

agree with @STEVEusaPA

Big Ed_4

Is your tank connection top feed ? One two pipe ? I would assume one pipe ? And at the burner one or two pipe connection at the oil pump ?

Kris78

@Big Ed_4 The tank feeds out from the bottom into the burners is two lines each 2 burners both have inlet & return line. Originally they came out of the tank & then split to run to the burner but because one is considerably higher then the other (the after burner) it caused to much draw so we separated them putting them on their own lines.

Kris78

@STEVEusaPA I purchased the crematorium we are currently using 2 years ago. I did not replace the original fuel tank. I had another department move it 300 feet to place it in a new location. We purchase our fuel from a local company that provides fuel to nearly if not all local farmers. during the summer months we run either #2 dyed diesel once winter hits we run #1 & #2 mix but we had horrible gelling last winter so in October I had them switch us to straight #1 Dyed diesel. It sounds odd because it only does this when we fill the tank, but I would swear I am getting cavitation in the bottom fuel pump. It is very foamy. I bleed it into a can & it sits in a capped waste bucket. The bubbles dissipate with in seconds in the can to nice clear fuel. no separation.

I have wondered about sediment in the tank especially from moving it 2 years ago. That being said my filters are always clean & the nozzles are rarely plugged. The system is not a fan of the cold. currently we are 50 degree days or warmer, that rules out temp.

Everything ran great until the tank was filled. Normally I would wait the 2 to 3 days to let the fuel settle. This is not ideal people want their pets remains back.

SuperTech

It might not be a bad idea to switch to a Tiger Loop de-aerator at the burners.  Maybe some heat tape on the oil line or a nozzle line heater would help too. Or running Kerosene instead of regular fuel oil 

Jon_blaney

Something is happening when you get a delivery. Do you get one large delivery or regular smaller deliveries? I think the tank filling is causing your issues, entraining air in the oil. While a Tiger Loop will not cure the problem, it is a definite workaround.

Kris78

@Jon_blaney We usually fill it at around 1/4 of a tank. It is definitely happening when we fill the tank. It has similar issues if the tank gets lower then a 1/4 of a tank. I made the call to change to half a tank fills, to see if this will prevent or at least shorten the time it needs to settle out.

I have thought maybe something is slightly blocking the line causing the fuel pump to cavitate, but that should be present all the time not just when we fill the tank.

The fuel tank is on the ground. Our next thought is maybe raise it up.

STEVEusaPA

Did I hear you right, you are over 300 feet from tank to burners? You definitely have a vacuum issue.
You probably need to switch to a booster pump/day tank set up .

Kris78

Oh no, we moved the fuel tank 300 feet from it's original location. I am concerned the move knocked some crap loose. It is only 6 to 8 foot away from the crematorium.

STEVEusaPA

Kris78 said:

Oh no, we moved the fuel tank 300 feet from it's original location. I am concerned the move knocked some crap loose. It is only 6 to 8 foot away from the crematorium.

Ok...then back to my first post.

426hemi

So it was over 300’ away form the burner before and it worked ok? Even assuming a 2 stage pump that’s one a hell of a pump! 

Kris78

My apologies I seem to be making it worse. We had an old crematorium located at point A with a fuel tank. I bought a new burner that had to be located at point B based on it's size. I did not buy a new fuel tank for the new burner. I hired a guy to come in to move the fuel tank from point A to point B so that I could hook it up to the new burner. My reason for mentioning moving the fuel tank is during moving day it got knocked around. Wondering if this caused an issue to the tank that could explain part of the fuel supply issues we have after filling. Sediment sitting in the bottom getting mixed up into the fuel when filling the tank.

Kris78

The day it went down was 2 days after filling the fuel tank that day the temp was warm 50+ temps. Today we are a balmy 21 degrees. The burners wouldn't even try. We ran salamander heaters pointed at the lines to attempt to warm them up. We managed to start the bottom burner. It ran for 30 minutes. While running we shut down the heaters. On restart it went back to sputtering. Spoke with someone who has dealt with oil burners. He suggested raising the tank on the fill side so that if there is any water in the fuel tank it will flow to the opposite end alone with anything else that shouldn't be in the tank. adding bigger copper fuel lines with filters in the intake lines. (We do not currently have filters on the lines because they manufacturer said they where not needed. our old system we had them) The hole system is outside with the crematorium under a roof. So, possibly insulate the lines as they are either running against the brick wall of the building or over the concrete. Tomorrows adventure replace both fuel pumps on the burners, heat the area & pray it starts working again.

Aside from that any thoughts on what was suggested?

426hemi

You need a filter on the tank/line first I whould take the supply line off of the tank and drain a fuel sample into a clear container see what your dealing with if you don’t have sludge or water in the tank, are you adding a antigell to your fuel? Ideally  should add it before the fuel is added to the tank so it mixes real good. If you have sludge in the tank you can try raising the pickup and putting a drain valve on the bottom of the tank so you can drain the water/sludge off. The fuel lines/fuel should not need to be insulated and/or heated in temperatures above about -15F but antigell must be added every time it is filled. Drain about a gallon off the bottom of that tank into a clean container and look at it! Without looking at the fuel it’s a guessing game! This will give you the answer! 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Move the oil lines to the top of the tank and pull oil 6" off the bottom. Pipe the burners to a 55 gallon drum (temporarly) and see if the burners run.

You need filters @426hemi I agree with his last post

STEVEusaPA

Without a qualified tech to first check what I mentioned in my first post, and properly check the other burner components, you’ll never solve the problems.
Replacing parts, bigger oil lines, etc. is an exercise in futility, although if you change enough parts eventually you could luck into it.

Big Ed_4

If you have crud or sludge in your tank , the tank was not installed the correct way . If water can collect somewhere other than catching in the service filter it was installed to fail ....

EdTheHeaterMan

How large is the tank?
What is the firing rate of each oil burner?
Do both the burners ever operate at the same time?
How often are burners fired?
How often is the tank filled?
What size are the fuel lines from the tank to the burner?
What fuel pumps do your burners use?

I'm thinking you may have something different from a normal residential oil burner. I know you did not say you have a residential type burner, However, some here might infer that from your statement about using the same oil as home heating oil.

The gear set of the fuel pump may move a much larger amount of fuel than what a residential fuel burner may move. If your burner pump moves a much larger amount of fuel then the suction may be greater than the fuel pump is designed to handle. What size fuel lines are in the installation instructions?

The residential tiger loop idea may not be compatible with your commercial burner.

retiredguy

It is time to call in a good service company and stop the guessing game. If they are good with oil fired burners they will have you up and running quickly. If you need help finding one there are many good contractors at this site. Look them up and give them a call.

Robert O'Brien

STEVEusaPA said:

Did I hear you right, you are over 300 feet from tank to burners? You definitely have a vacuum issue.
You probably need to switch to a booster pump/day tank set up .

I was waiting for you to pick up on that!

Kris78

@retiredguy I would gladly call in a good service guy. It would seem we don't have one. We have been running pet cremations through oil burner systems for years. The companies who make them are no where near us & the local pluming & heating businesses don't have any answers. Reason for my presence here.

Kris78

@EdTheHeaterMan
How large is the tank?
500 Gallon

What is the firing rate of each oil burner?
Rate I can not speak for. This thing came with 3 sheets of printed instructions & light info. No actual manual. The top burner (after burner) is continual burn when you set the timer dial.

Do both the burners ever operate at the same time?
Yes, The bottom (main burner) has a brain. the top is on a timer. settings are between 30 & 2 hours for the bottom it will heat up to 1400 degrees then cool down to 900 & restart it will do this until time runs out. The top burner (after burner) runs 30 to 60 minutes longer that the bottom burner is set to run.

How often are burners fired?
we run in Monday through Friday as needed to cremate citizens pets.

How often is the tank filled?
Tank is filled usually once a month but can vary based on need. We have always wondered how much fuel is needed per burn. No way to tell on the system. unless you really like math.

What size are the fuel lines from the tank to the burner?
3/8 copper line. this is manufacturer recommendations. It has been thought to run larger line, get them off the concrete & insulate them. We have also considered a day tank (guess we would learn how much fuel is needed per burn then.)

What fuel pumps do your burners use?
here is the fuel pump they only offer one: Can't post links it thinks I am a spam bot. Farmer Boy ag . com is the place that sells them & the parts. it is listed as a cow incinerator.

We bought the system from Farmerboyag J & D Manufacturing Easy Burner. They also sell the fuel pumps R & K incinerator fuel unit for burn-easy incinerator oil burner

All of out parts come from Farmer Boy & any assistance we need we call BurnEasy for over the phone advice. You are correct it is not a home oil burner. We contacted a local heating guy for our old system that is long gone. We needed new burners & could no longer buy from the manufacturer of the old system. He said the burners are the same as home oil burners so that is what he ordered us. This system's burners does not have CAD eyes. (that's something I dislike) that is the only thing I can see different between the two.

We replaced the fuel pumps yesterday & slightly elevated the fuel tank. Ran heaters around the area. They finally started bled the lines little to no air in them. Started right up. Ran for an hour but only made it to 1050 degrees before puttering back out on us again. it's 23 degrees out and this system hates winter as much as I do. I would gladly call someone in for service if I could find someone. the good old boys here have reservations about working on the system that cremates animals.

pecmsg

It appears the issues started when the tank was moved. Yes a day tank will help.

EdTheHeaterMan

I looked up the type of equipment you were using. The oil burners are installed on an appliance that is designed to operate outdoors. This means the oil burner is exposed to the cold temperatures.

This is a unique situation for most oil burner mechanics because 100% of every oil burner I have ever worked on was inside a condition space. Namely the furnace or boiler room of a commercial property or inside the home of a residential user. Even the Thermopride and Armstrong package units have a cover over the burner to provide shelter and some warmth to the burner compartment

There is no literature easily available from the manufacture JND on the actual oil burner. So getting the fuel pump specification and nozzle size is difficult.


You do have one point of leverage, you are a fuel oil customer and a customer that purchases a significant amount compared to the average homeowner. Use that leverage to your advantage by switching to an oil dealer that will provide burner service

Warming the oil in a day tank will help

retiredguy

You do not need a company who specializes in cremation ovens, you need a good oil burner service tech. We used to work on incinerators for body parts in hospitals. The burners that they used were regular oil fired units . The only difference was the operating temperature of the incinerator and the temperature of the 2nd chamber and some controls to guarantee that the incinerator operated as the state of Pennsylvania specified.

WMno57

I have no experience with oil heating. I do have experience with diesel fuel and winter.

1D has less BTUs than 2D.

Wax crystals start to form in 2D at 20 F.

Bio Diesel has problems with algae growing in it. Bio Diesel is a bad choice anywhere it sits around in storage.

Could you wrap some electric heat tape around your lines?

Kris78

@EdTheHeaterMan Thank you for looking into my system. Yes, it is outside. I however am not a fan of standing in the elements & since we preserve the ash to give back to the owner we don't want it getting wet. I had a roof built over it (A carport if you will) I put up cattle panels with privacy tarps (thicker & not plastic) this keeps us & the burner dry but does not keep us out of the cold. Nozzle on the main burner is 2.0 Nozzle on the top burner is 1.5

Leverage would be fantastic if I had an alternative. We are small town so only one option to obtain fuel without paying someone in a surrounding city to bring it in & they would be over an hour away.

Kris78

@retiredguy you are correct that's how ours runs I have to meet Iowa EPA regulations. We do not have a cremation specialist in town. Just a couple of pluming & heating companies. The staff all get the willies when we ask them to assist. One of them is convinced he will get cancer if he touches our system.

Kris78

@WMno57 You are correct in the summer months we run #2 dyed diesel (being city we are allowed dyed diesel) in the winter I was running a winter blend of #1 & #2 in October I asked my supplier to start my winter mix. He dropped off #1 only said he thought it would help. We had a mild start to the winter but it did seem to run a bit better. We had it filled on 12/8 with straight #1 again but we have not been able to get the dang thing to start up correctly since. We have tried wrapping the lines in heat tape, even put a magnet heater on the enclosure around the fuel tank near the filter.

Attempts to get it to run:
1. bleed the living day light out of the lines
Failed
2. switch fuel pumps (these things are stupid simple filters where clean) elevate the tank.
Worked for an hour
3. say screw it & replace the filter on the fuel tank even though it looks good & is not that old.
That is todays adventure so we will see.
Possible things to try:
1. bigger fuel lines & get them off the concrete. Insulate them.
2. additives to the fuel tank (pricey & has to be repeated with each fill.
3. day tank if we can get it done without violations.
4. new fuel tank that is elevated allowing for gravity assist to easy up on the fuel pumps.
5. find the person who decided cremation services would be a great addition to an animal shelter & kick them.

Willing to take any other things that might help outside of ... well we will not go there I don't think I am cut out for prison LOL

EdTheHeaterMan

It appears that you are getting an education on how the oil burner works. At least on how to "prime the pump". In order to get the needed information on how the fuel system is doing, you can install a vacuum gauge on the fuel pump inlet.

Are you currently using a single pipe fuel line system or a 2 pipe fuel line system?

Assuming a 2 pipe system, this is where you can install the vacuum gauge depending on the inlet and outlet tubing. It can be permanent if you add a valve. Do not use Teflon tape on oil burner fuel line fittings. Use an approved pipe joint compound.

The height of the tank should not be an issue for the upper burner if you are using a 2 pipe system. The oil temperature is more important.

If you do not have this exact pump, A2VA 7116 can you tell me the model number of the pump that you have or take a picture of each pump?

Gauge available here
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Ashcroft-25W1005H02L-VAC-2-5-1005-Series-0-30-Vacuum-Gauge-w-PowerFlex-1-4-Bottom-Mount
Valve
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BVT025-1-4-Full-Port-Threaded-Ball-Valve-Lead-Free
Other fitting needed
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BLN025-150-1-4-x-1-1-2-Black-Nipple
Thread sealant
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Hercules-15605-Real-Tuff-Thread-Sealant-1-1-oz-Tube

You can also use an elbow to make it easy to install and read the gauge.

If the gauge goes above 12, then you may be able to get the job done with a different pump. Model number B2YA pump will go up to 17 vacuum.

EdTheHeaterMan

It is tough to know the problem without gauge readings. It is unfortunate that none of the locals are interested in helping you.

I hope this gets you closer to resolving the problem.

rick in Alaska

With a two line system, you do not need to bleed the pump. When you turn the burner on, the pump will self bleed. That is assuming the fuel lines are tight, without leaks, no major restrictions in them, and the bypass plug is actually installed in the pump.
I would also try draining off some fuel on those really cold days when it doesn't want to seem to run, and see if you are getting either sludge, or possibly, very little fuel. If there is water in the fuel tank, it might be partially blocking the flow of fuel, but works again after the outside temp warms up.
Please take a picture of your tank and burner setup and post it. When the cleancut pumps first came out, they had bad solenoids on them which had a nasty habit of shutting down when they got warm. Probably not your issue, but it might be a secondary issue.
I am also assuming that the nozzle in your burner is not gunked up. Have you changed or checked it?
Rick

WMno57

Bump

Pin hole in the dip tube?

If the plumbers in your town are few and far between, would a mobile ag repair service be able to fix it? They might have some experience with outdoor diesel tanks.

Kris78

@EdTheHeaterMan Thank you for all the research. Yes that is our fuel pump SUNTEC A2VA-7116 Image A is our set up. We did find that the fuel pump for the top burner needed replaced. My vender sent me a rebuilt pump that, if it was rebuilt whomever did it. Didn't do it right it was locked up.

They sent another one & an extra to keep on the shelf this made some improvements to the system. I do very much like the idea of adding a vacuum gage.

We have been blessed with some warmer weather this week. Hoping that will assist us to at the very least get pet cremations caught back up.

We changed out the filter on the fuel tank again. I did not find any gelling of the fuel but the filter though only a few months old seemed like it was starting to pull a part. My thoughts it was new but old. The new filter allowed the bottom burner to start running correctly.

It would be nice if I had someone around here that was willing to at the very least try to assist. I have 9 years using oil burners for cremations. I have always argued the temps effect the burners. As soon as I think one think helped fix the issues, either something else goes wrong, or it was only a temp fix. I haven't given up yet.

@rick in Alaska I am aware they are self priming pumps. You can't see fuel in closed copper lines. Best way to see the fuel and it's consistency bleed it.

Water in the tank has been a very big thought. We do drain off the fuel & check it to see if it is sludging/ thickening / gelling up. I have found very little indication of this happening. So little that what I do find just makes me wonder more. It's a speck or two from time to time.

Lines are locked up like Fort Knox. I have checked, checked, & rechecked. At this point I am developing a complex looking for issues over & over where there are none.

Any time the burner starts to act up we start with fuel from beginning to end. Check nozzles, spark, fuel lines, air. The system also gets a general maintenance work order on Monday mornings just to view the conditions of the whole unit. I keep plenty of spare parts as nothing for this thing other than filters can be bought locally.

I will try to get some pictures of our set up this afternoon. I am pretty proud of it in comparison to the system they had when I started. I hand picked this one. Yes, I am still proud even with the issues lol

pecmsg

3 burners and a 3/8" supply line?
300+ feet pull.

Get a small Day tank, 10 - 15 gals tops

Jon_blaney

Can you post a picture of the fuel line connections at the tank? Do they share any components?

EdTheHeaterMan

pecmsg said:

3 burners and a 3/8" supply line?
300+ feet pull.

Get a small Day tank, 10 - 15 gals tops

You missed something. Only 2 burners in close proximity to the tank. (tank was moved closer when the replacement system was installed) and there are separate fuel lines (4 total) for each of the burners. If I read everything correctly.

The entire system is outdoors, the tank, and the burners. a carport is covering the burners to keep them dry, but the carport is not heated.

I believe the tank is old and when the move happened, the Tank Bottom Deposits (TBD) were disturbed. Now every time there is a fuel delivery, the TBDs are agitated and cause problems.

Maybe time for a new tank or at least a tank cleaning, if anyone does tank cleanings around those parts of the country. But it still won't solve the cold oil problem.

@Kris78 may want to try a different fuel pump. B2YA-8916. It has the same external connections but just a little more guts inside to combat those problems.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=suntec b2ya-8916?searchText=suntec+b2ya-8916

Depending on who is providing the pump, the price may vary drastically. Even from the same supply house.

pecmsg

Even 3 sets of lines, 3/8” is small for that run. 

EdTheHeaterMan

pecmsg said:

Even 3 sets of lines, 3/8” is small for that run. 

What run? Are you still talking about an imaginary 300 ft that never exists just misunderstood?

I believe that You may have been consuming too much product from your commercial water heater customer with the Noritz water heaters. OOPS If other posters on this site read only this post you might be thought of as an alcoholic... or at least a connoisseur of fine wines

Of course, this comment should be marked as "off-topic" but who is reading these anyway,