Help with air in fuel tank of oil burner after filling

pecmsg

Kris78 said:

I had another department move it 300 feet to place it in a new location.

EdTheHeaterMan

@pecmsg Yes, I read that. I also read the old oil burners were 300 ft away. So the tank was close to the old burners. when the new burners were installed, 300 feet away from the old burners, the tank was moved to 300 feet to the new location. At no time was there 300 feet of fuel line.

But you would know that if you read this:

"My apologies I seem to be making it worse. We had an old crematorium located at point A with a fuel tank. I bought a new burner that had to be located at point B based on it's size. I did not buy a new fuel tank for the new burner. I hired a guy to come in to move the fuel tank from point A to point B so that I could hook it up to the new burner. My reason for mentioning moving the fuel tank is during moving day it got knocked around. Wondering if this caused an issue to the tank that could explain part of the fuel supply issues we have after filling. Sediment sitting in the bottom getting mixed up into the fuel when filling the tank."


So I ask you again, What run? Are you still talking about an imaginary 300 ft that never exists just misunderstood?

EdTheHeaterMan

I'm sorry if you get a reputation for suffering from Connoisseurism, from my previous post. Let's hope that no one reads every comment in a thread.

Tim Potter

Hi @Kris78 ,
I own a 8 bay Goodyear Dealership & we burn our waste oil to Heat the building in the winter. We use a "Clean Burn" branded unit. They burn oil, but use a specially modified Oil burner, not a home heating burner. I am wondering if you contact the Iowa rep for clean burn, if they would be willing to travel to you (because they travel for most service calls) and look over your installation.
It seems like they would be more 'in the know' about some of the problems you are experiencing, being they deal with dirty, fouled oil all the time, rather than the clean oil like home heating service people.
Our tank sits outside in the KC area, and we don't have a problem lighting the furnace even on the coldest below 0 days here.

Tim

Jellis

@Kris78 I'm sorry your having this trouble, it must not be fun telling people they have to wait for their pets remains
where are you located? I apologize if you mentioned it, I did not see where.
Can you post any pictures of your setup? From tank, to burner including fuel line connections?
I would try some water detecting paste to see if any water is in your fuel tank and cross that off your list as a problem.

I hear a lot of mention of changing fuel pumps and not having a qualified tech available.
are you setting the pump pressure on the fuel pumps?

when you have the issue you described using heaters to warm up the lines... did you have no oil flow to the burner at this point? was the fuel line frozen?

WMno57

@Jellis
@Kris78 is in Iowa.

426hemi

No one will work on it? Is it really nasty, if so maybe you should clean up the area and get rid of the rotting animals and maggots ect. If it’s clean make sure to tell the person who you want to come this! No offense but it’s like getting a mechanic to work on a garbage truck clean it up and there’s no problem if you can smell in 10 miles away not many people are going to want to work on it! 

EdTheHeaterMan

Tim Potter said:

Hi @Kris78 ,
I own a 8 bay Goodyear Dealership & we burn our waste oil to Heat the building in the winter. We use a "Clean Burn" branded unit. They burn oil, but use a specially modified Oil burner, not a home heating burner. I am wondering if you contact the Iowa rep for clean burn, if they would be willing to travel to you (because they travel for most service calls) and look over your installation.
It seems like they would be more 'in the know' about some of the problems you are experiencing, being they deal with dirty, fouled oil all the time, rather than the clean oil like home heating service people.
Our tank sits outside in the KC area, and we don't have a problem lighting the furnace even on the coldest below 0 days here.

Tim

It's a good idea however, the fuel pump on your waste oil burner is quite different from the burners on the crematorium Kris is using. There is no compressed air involved and the fuel pump is mounted on the burner, not the fuel tank as is your system.

WMno57

EdTheHeaterMan said:

the fuel pump is mounted on the burner, not the fuel tank

This is also how older vehicles were plumbed. Back in the good ol days, the fuel pump on the side of the engine block would suck fuel out of the tank through the fuel sending unit in the tank. Sometimes the line in the fuel sending unit would develop a pinhole. As the level of fuel in the tank would go up and down the pinhole would be either submerged in fuel or suck air.

I know little about oil heat and oil heating tanks. Is there a dip tube in an oil heating tank? Could @Kris78 have an air intrusion problem because of a pinhole in the dip tube?

Kris78

@426hemi Really? I have a very clean system & would never allow such things to occur. We have a very large freezer for storage. The area is kept clean as we go. The burner receives regular preventative maintenance every Monday before starting the week. I thank you for you input though far from the issue. We have 2 companies here that could work on it. Both state they know little to nothing about the system based on it being a crematorium. One of the companies is a one man band privately owned. He just has some odd theories on what could happen to him while being near the crematorium.

Kris78

@EdTheHeaterMan Sorry for my absence. Holidays & a ton of snow have kept me on my toes. I said screw it and bought 2 new fuel pumps. That has helped though I know it's only temporary. I also purchased to fuel pressure gages for the pumps. The burner has it's good days & bad. Honestly it's more moody then the one who assumed it was rotting mass murder around my unit.

I will still get those pictures taken & posted. I am proud of this system even when it fails to work correctly. I hand picked it. The system they had when I started was like comparing a moped to a Harley.

I thank you all for your input it has been very helpful to have a place to brainstorm and get input back.

pecmsg

Do you know how many gallons are required for each burn?

EdTheHeaterMan

Thanks for your PM reply @Kris78

Did you get Vacuum gauges also? https://www.supplyhouse.com/Ashcroft-25W1005H02L-VAC-2-5-1005-Series-0-30-Vacuum-Gauge-w-PowerFlex-1-4-Bottom-Mount
This measures the amount of suction required to move the fuel thru the fuel lines. (the opposite of pressure)

The fuel pump has a range of up to 12 inches Hg. of vacuum that is an acceptable operating range. If the Vacuum is greater than that, the burner will fail to operate properly. The pump can no longer create pressure if the fuel entering the pump is being restricted.

Think of it as a straw in a drinking glass. If the glass is full of milk, your suction is relatively easy. If the glass is filled with a milkshake, the suction needed is greater. If you get a lump of ice cream stuck at the bottom of the straw, then the straw is blocked. Nothing moves until you get the ice cream to melt or moved away from the bottom of the straw.

measuring the vacuum is important in diagnosing the problem.

Jamie Hall

Ice. You not only have a gelling problem -- bad enough -- but an ice problem. No, you won't see it. No, it isn't because of visible (and drainable) water. It is small amounts of water actually mixed with (not really dissolved in) the fuel. It forms tiny needle like ice crystals -- which then get caught on your filter and make a felt-like mat and block the fuel flow.

How do I know? Same thing happens to our skidders and forwarders any time it gets cold (big Cat diesels).

You may find that an anti-icing additive such as Prist (it's really made for airplanes, but... it works!) may help. It's not added to normal heating oil -- you have to do it yourself.

Kris78

@pecmsg I do not. It has always been something we have wanted to know. The fuel level is a float so that tells me little to nothing. There are no other readings on anything till I bought the gages but not for measuring amount used.

pecmsg

You should have a stick for the tank to manually measure the level as a back up.

Do you know the size of the gun nozzles, you can get a rough estimate from that.

I agree with @EdTheHeaterMan you need a vacuum gauge for it vital information.

Kris78

@Jamie Hall Thank you that is helpful. Everything I have found for an additive that I can put in myself was going to cost about as much as the fuel does or more every time I filled the tank. I will look into this. I have found signs of gelling on the smaller filters in the pumps themselves before.

Kris78

@pecmsg o gun nozzle it's a 500 gallon tank on the ground in a box. One end is capped for filling the other has my gage float on it. Then the vent stack that's it. filter and lines are on the same side as the fill port.

Jamie Hall

Kris78 said:

@Jamie Hall Thank you that is helpful. Everything I have found for an additive that I can put in myself was going to cost about as much as the fuel does or more every time I filled the tank. I will look into this. I have found signs of gelling on the smaller filters in the pumps themselves before.

Yeah... Prist isn't cheap. However, it keeps our machinery running -- and airplanes flying, so there is something to be said for it.

Here's a link for it (it won't be at your farm supply store -- at least it's not at ours). https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/FBprist.php
Your burner people won't have heard of it -- but we use it in the concentrations suggested.

pecmsg

Kris78 said:

@pecmsg o gun nozzle it's a 500 gallon tank on the ground in a box. One end is capped for filling the other has my gage float on it. Then the vent stack that's it. filter and lines are on the same side as the fill port.

Then the manufacture can tell you how many gals per hour.

I'm asking so we can determine the size of a day tank. It may be something small say 15 or 20 Gals!

Kris78

Jamie Hall said:

Kris78 said:

@Jamie Hall Thank you that is helpful. Everything I have found for an additive that I can put in myself was going to cost about as much as the fuel does or more every time I filled the tank. I will look into this. I have found signs of gelling on the smaller filters in the pumps themselves before.

Yeah... Prist isn't cheap. However, it keeps our machinery running -- and airplanes flying, so there is something to be said for it.

Here's a link for it (it won't be at your farm supply store -- at least it's not at ours). https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/FBprist.php
Your burner people won't have heard of it -- but we use it in the concentrations suggested.

Thank you the City also owns a small airport so maybe they have some or might be willing to go in on a bulk buy with me.

Jamie Hall

Kris78 said:

Jamie Hall said:

Kris78 said:

@Jamie Hall Thank you that is helpful. Everything I have found for an additive that I can put in myself was going to cost about as much as the fuel does or more every time I filled the tank. I will look into this. I have found signs of gelling on the smaller filters in the pumps themselves before.

Yeah... Prist isn't cheap. However, it keeps our machinery running -- and airplanes flying, so there is something to be said for it.

Here's a link for it (it won't be at your farm supply store -- at least it's not at ours). https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/FBprist.php
Your burner people won't have heard of it -- but we use it in the concentrations suggested.

Thank you the City also owns a small airport so maybe they have some or might be willing to go in on a bulk buy with me.

Most likely, if they refuel jet or turboprop aircraft in the winter. It goes in Jet A (which is sort of halfway between #1 and #2 diesel).

Kris78

@pecmsg that is exactly why I wanted to know. 2 years ago right after I put the system in we had hired a new guy. He did not check the fuel level before starting a 3 hour burn.

He ran the system dry (no fail safe if it's not getting fuel) He burned up both the pumps.

There for I need the info to determine what is needed for size to prevent a repeat that costs me more.

EdTheHeaterMan

pecmsg said:

Do you know how many gallons are required for each burn?

I did some math.

One oil burner has a 1.5 GPH nozzle the other has a 2.0 GPH nozzle and the burns are anywhere from 1 hour to 3 hours max. each burner has separate fuel lines from the tank. (so no need to add both together) If the pump pressure is at 140 or 150, as you may find on many oil burners, the total oil you can expect to burn on one cycle is less than 15 gallons.

I think that should answer your question.

As far as putting a Day Tank indoors to keep the fuel warm, I believe a 25 to 50-gallon tank would be more than adequate. If that is the direction you were thinking.

pecmsg

EdTheHeaterMan said:

pecmsg said:

Do you know how many gallons are required for each burn?

I did some math.

One oil burner has a 1.5 GPH nozzle the other has a 2.0 GPH nozzle and the burns are anywhere from 1 hour to 3 hours max. each burner has separate fuel lines from the tank. (so no need to add both together) If the pump pressure is at 140 or 150, as you may find on many oil burners, the total oil you can expect to burn on one cycle is less than 15 gallons.

I think that should answer your question.

As far as putting a Day Tank indoors to keep the fuel warm, I believe a 25 to 50-gallon tank would be more than adequate. If that is the direction you were thinking.

Thats exactly what I was thinking.
If your #'s are right it doesnt even have to be a auto fill, manual will work just as well. Im guessing the pumps are drawing close to 12" if not lower.

Kris78

@EdTheHeaterMan Thank you for doing the math on that.

25 gallons I could do a movable warm tank in & out of the building on a cart if I go up to 50 lbs. it will need to be stationary.

25 gallons weight is 175 lbs.
50 gallons weight is 350 lbs.

both out weight me plus add that the building has a make shift ramp that I had made. Yep, going for drilling holes in the building lol.

Thinking out loud about my physical restrictions as a short woman.

I do want to thank you all this has been more helpful then I can express. I don't have a supportive sound board when it comes to the burner.

EdTheHeaterMan

A comment was made about insulating the fuel line. (might have been on a PM). To be clear, Insulation, by itself, does not heat up the fuel lines. Insulation will actually keep the fuel lines colder during operation because the fuel is colder from being in the outside tank overnight during the coldest temperatures of the 24-hour cycle we call a day.

Since the burner is used during the day time, the insulation would restrict the warmer daytime temperatures from getting to the fuel lines. The only good that insulation will do for the fuel lines is to keep heat in if the fuel lines were wrapped with heat tape. Then the heat from the heat tape will be retained by the insulation.

Kris78

@EdTheHeaterMan that is an excellent point. I did try heat tape on the lines last year. I have a while 2 outlets & those are for the burners themselves.

I would prefer to avoid heat tape. So, I will avoid insulating the lines.

WMno57

"How much fuel is used in the burn process?

Average fuel consumption is between 2-2.25 GPH. Fuel consumption will vary due to the fat content of the animal. Less fuel is required for animals with a higher fat content. The cremator utilizes the fat for fuel and helps reduce the actual fuel consumption."

found the above under the pull down FAQ on this page:
https://jdmfg.com/product/biosecure-cow-cremator/?application=biosecure-cow-cremator&application_cat=dairy

pecmsg

WMno57 said:

"How much fuel is used in the burn process? Average fuel consumption is between 2-2.25 GPH. Fuel consumption will vary due to the fat content of the animal. Less fuel is required for animals with a higher fat content. The cremator utilizes the fat for fuel and helps reduce the actual fuel consumption." found the above under the pull down FAQ on this page: https://jdmfg.com/product/biosecure-cow-cremator/?application=biosecure-cow-cremator&application_cat=dairy

Totally Agree 
spent 10 years at the Plum Island Animal Disease Center.  When the burned, from outside you know they dropped a full 600# pig in the incinerator. You could hear the roar!

Kris78

@WMno57 You are correct high fat on the animal means quicker burn time. The incinerator get hotter faster when I have a plump animal in there.

The skinny ones take more time more fuel.

EdTheHeaterMan

@WMno57 The fat content of the animal will not affect the burner operation in any way. So that does nothing for problem resolution. But I like the way you are thinking. Fuel is Fuel!

Unfortunately, we can't heat the space or any water with that fuel.

WMno57

Right, the burner can't sense how rubenesque the deceased is. I think there is a temp sensor that will cycle the burner during the cremation to maintain a combustible temperature. I think there is also a fan providing combustion air during the entire cremation.

The 2 to 2.25 GPH is an average for a 12 hour cow cremation. A pet cremation would be shorter and the burner might not cycle.

Only mentioned because you guys were trying to estimate fuel consumption and "your mileage may vary".

rick in Alaska

I seriously doubt it is a freezing line issue, especially when it did it when it was 50 degrees out. Diesel trucks run cold fuel and can handle quite a bit a bit of cold.
Just bite the bullet, switch to a one pipe system, with a tigerloop
and filters. This will stop the really cold oil from cycling through the fuel unit as the tigerloop will help heat it a bit, and will help with any air issues it might be having. And while you are at it, unless you have already done it, change out all the lines and fittings so as to eliminate any potential hidden problems there.
Rick

Sootmaster

Does it have a “snorkel “? That was a bandaid when the bottom of the tank gets sludged up. It was a tank guage that has a pickup on it and takes fuel off the top of the tank. Maybe it’s sucking in the foam while it’s being filled? Try shutting everything off while they are filling it? Just a thought.....

RyanD

Have you tried using a water detecting paste to check the tank it's self for water? Something like this. https://www.amazon.com/Gasoila-Regular-Water-Finding-Paste/dp/B016ZXZW94

EdTheHeaterMan

Although warming the fuel may not apply in your situation, the Tiger loop solves other problems and maybe the answer. I have used Tigerloops to solve problem jobs and also included them on every new oil burner I installed since they were available in the 1990s It gives you a clear viewport into the condition of the oil right at the burner. You would need one for each burner.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Westwood-Products-S220-Tigerloop-Oil-De-aerator-TN-Model-UL-Listed

page 16 thru 20 here for description
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Westwood-S220-8-Brochure.pdf

STEVEusaPA

They also make oil line heaters.

EdTheHeaterMan

STEVEusaPA said:

They also make oil line heaters.

Are you talking about the one that Carlin mounts on the high-pressure nozzle assembly line?
I believe the outdoor above ground tank temperature with outdoor oil lines and outdoor oil burners need more than that.
OR
Are you speaking about something else?

STEVEusaPA

I should’ve said nozzle line heater, the Carlin ones. I did see pickup line heaters (trade show?) but never saw one in the field.
Seen a lot of heat tape wrapped around oil lines.