Rookie here. 2 Pipe Steam system with no traps.

neilc

changing the boiler piping we all agree needs doing,
but that won't change the short cycling,
that's more a matter of the boiler being too large for the connected load(EDR)

go back up and read what JUGHNE wrote again,
his orifice solution will be far easier and less invasive than trapping all your rads, I'm sure he or others would help you source the orifice solution.

JUGHNE

I believe part of the short cycling is from lack of air vents as most of them will close early getting hit with steam from both directions.

Carco

@neilc @JUGHNE From all the discussions on this thread the orifice solution might not be enough but I would love to try this solution first as it is far cheaper. That being said, @JUGHNE where can I fine orifice plates?

Also, @neilc have you calculated my EDR? Do you know if my boiler is oversized? If not, do you have an EDR chart I can use to calculate me system?

I was also told on this thread that I need a vaporstat installed instead of a pressuretrol.

KC_Jones

I ran the EDR numbers based on your measurements, assuming all radiators are of similar design to the one you pictured. I came up with ~447 sq ft for the radiation. The IN7 is rated for 542, which puts you at ~21% oversized. The IN6 would have been much more appropriate at 450 sq ft.

The oversizing will cause much, if not all your short cycling issues. It really annoys me that the contractors won't measure the radiation and size properly. In addition to the time you spent measuring, it took me exactly 5 minutes to run these numbers. Yes, I'm beating up on contractors here, but honestly, ones like this one have earned it.

Unless you have an incredible contractor (doesn't sound like it), and the Burnham rep completely sides with you (already mentioned in this thread that's an uphill battle), I fear you may be stuck with this situation. You'd have to get him to admit fault, and be willing to tear it out and put in the proper size boiler.

I think you will be lucky to get the re-pipe out of them.

Also, a vaporstat may be necessary to get the system to work properly, but it's actually going to make any short cycling worse than it is now. This is because it will be cutting out at an even lower pressure and the deadband will be much smaller. Steam boiler sizing is critical to proper operation of the system, I can't understand why contractors ignore this.

ttekushan_3

Another vote for orifice plates. Dan Holohan’s Lost Art … has a drill chart based on radiator size and supply pressure (in ounces- so go with vaporastat). I’m at a loss for a source for plates at the moment but have punched them myself in the past. 

But here’s a quick trick I do on all the screwed up Mouat vapor systems I encounter with one or more replacement valves (and every one has a few replacements just to keep the system reeling out of control). This process sets an arbitrary starting point for calibration  Plus it’s cheap, easy, and effective:

Once you have a vaporstat (and preferably the piping problems incl the returns tied together too high)

• close each radiator valve. 

• for a medium size radiator open the valve 1/2 turn. Make a small mark if necessary. 

• for a large radiator open the valve, say, 2/3 to 3/4 turn. 

• a small radiator, the valve may be 1/3 turn. 

• run the system and fine tune until the radiators heat at the same rate in an even, controlled fashion. This part is seat-of-the-pants but you’ll get the feel of it. Preferably the last section of the radiator will not get steaming hot on a very long run. The last section or two of each rad acts as a post condenser to keep live steam out of the returns.
(This is why many of those systems never had end of main vents or traps. Just drips to the return through a water seal below the boiler water line. )

depending on the new valve characteristics you may need more or less but at least they’re all new and the same. 

You can leave it at that and mark each one in a permanent way, or use it as your guide for installing orifice plates. 

Regardless it gets you in the vapor heating game immediately. 

JohnNY

It's fascinating seeing the results of such fine effort put into installing things improperly.

pecmsg

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@Carco

Any good steam person knows that copper steam piping is not the best, and most all steam folks wouldn't allow copper.

But, Propress is approved for steam. The Burnham rep is likely not going to degrade the plumber for using copper.

He will only comment on the piping configuration being correct/incorrect and the correct size.

Unless you told the plumber you wanted steel pipe before he started your probably out of luck with that.

Also, this may be the only boiler you ever buy. The plumber will buy many more. The Burnham rep does not want to loose the plumbers business which @ethicalpaul mentioned

Pro Press IS NOT approved for steam!

Mega Press with Black Iron is

JUGHNE

I found the article by Henry Gifford....."How to Make a Two-Pipe Steam Heating System Really Work". From ABMA June 2003.
It is a good read if you can find it online somewhere.
The article includes drill sizes based on 2 PSI for 15 to 145 EDR.

Orifices came from Tunstall Corp. 413-594-8695..Chicopee MA.
I had to get them thru a wholesaler in Omaha, they are not in stock and need a factory order.
Depending where you are located someone may have them in stock.
Any supplier that provides Tunstall products could get them.

Sized by union size, I had 1/8" pilot drilled in all of them.
Only in one case I did need less than 1/8".
I recommend getting extras.
I did have some steam valves that had 3/4" riser but only 1/2" spud into radiator....that is rare but was overlooked on the first visit.

Henry's article tells the easy way to drill by holding the orifice in a union with nipple attached while drilling the size.

The house I refer to that resembles yours had 662 connected EDR. The boiler is 225,000 input rated for 571 EDR.
But, 662 EDR X .8 = 529 EDR because of orifice restrictions.

0-16 ounce vaporstat (HG) and 0-32 ounce WIKA gauge were mounted on a double stacked pigtail because of pulsations.
Orifice size was based on 18 ounces from the chart, this was just a guess to start with and worked out well.
We are running maybe 12 ounces, so even less steam is delivered. You can always increase the hole size as needed for particular areas.
The express main across the house is 3", two 2" mains come off the end of that and run around the perimeter full size, almost to the end at the boiler.

6 G-2 main vents total. 2 on each EOM and 2 on returns which are teed together at the ceiling, BTW. This was not changed because of a welded manifold which would have been major labor cost. Again the returns do pass only air and cool condensate so there is no steam collision at that point.

I will try to attach the ounces chart, someone on the wall sent it to me, so will pass it on. Pardon my notes and markings on it.

JUGHNE

You should do your own EDR calculations.
There are different styles that are rated differently.

The chart is source credited to "Fizz With Kids" IIRC.
The sizes marked HG in pencil to the side are the sizes used by Henry for his 2 PSI sizes.
He deals with larger systems running that pressure.
You and I are working with vapor systems under 1 PSI.

Carco

I have to say, I never thought I'd be so fascinated with a steam blog. It's amazing how much everyone here knows and how you all contribute in some way. That all being said, I have an update on the burnham rep meeting today. My neighbor, Dan, who introduced me to this blog educated me on what was needed to be said during today's meeting and boy did it work. 

The plumbing company has agreed to replace all the piping with black threaded piping and also a vaporstat. The will also be installing the drop header installation shown on the burnam spec I provided.  Since I have a IN7 It requires a 3" Header. The will then extend main to line up with the 2" equalizer which will then pipe down to a T then connect to the return.  From that T, nipple then 90 down, nipple, T, nipple, and T again then install a drain valve.  I requested the equalizer and the remaining piping to be 2" so it would be uniform.  The spec calls for 1-1/2" but part of the piping will be already 2".  I'll be drawing this up and shall post it.  

This is huge because all I'll need to do after is install proper venting on my mains. I just installed a Gorton #2 on my return today but will be adding more venting once the boiler piping is resolved. 

I have asked them to recalculate the EDR sizing of my boiler as well as I feel that their contractor was clues. My replaced boiler was 200,000 btu and that was when there were 4 more radiators on the system so somethings not right. 

Everyone has been extremely helpful and I thank you. @KC_Jones thanks for doing the calculations for me.

Carco

@JUGHNE I have reached out to tunstall and I'm waiting to hear back. I'll keep you posted as to what they say.

JUGHNE

Will they bring your 2 returns and EOM ends down to the wet return?
3/4" tees back 16" from the drop 90's would be good for venting.

I think the end of return trap/air vent could be eliminated.

Hopefully others will respond to that suggestion?

Jamie Hall

Fantastic and bravo! And may I say that you must have been quite diplomatic with the people -- and deserve a good deal of praise for that.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@pecmsg
Here you go.

I never said I would use it for steam but it is approved and has been for years

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Carco

Good job I am surprised the plumber went for the repipe, that's a big win

KC_Jones

That is great news and I’m genuinely shocked, and happy to eat my words.

We are all happy to help.

Carco

Carco

@EBEBRATT-Ed the viega copper compression fittings is what they used.

Carco

@Jamie Hall To be honest, without all of your help as well as the help of my neighbor I wouldn't of been able to go into the meeting and ask for what I need to be done in order for me to be satisfied. 

Carco

@JUGHNE The plumber has agreed to bring the two pipes down below the water line and connect to two t's that will have a drain now.

neilc

man,
go buy some lottery tickets

neilc

it's somewhat promising that the contractor has been made aware of the "irregularities" and will correct them,
but as others have said, some times the fix is just another distorted botch,
does sound like your guy is trying.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Carco
Viega copper crimp fittings are called "Propress". The stainless steel crimped fittings for black pipe are called "Megapress"

Both are approved for low pressure steam (under 15psi)

They both use a rubber O ring and are similar technology.

I don't want to speak for anyone else but I think most on this forum would not use either for steam.

If your plumber is re-piping with black pipe that is good but I would ask if he is going to use threaded fittings or Megapress.

Either Propress or Mega Press can be used for lo pressure condensate return piping below the boiler water line in my opinion

JUGHNE

You said he agreed to use threaded black pipe.. very good.
Why be part of an experiment for press fittings.
There is a long list of "new" methods that have been involved with lawyers years later. Threaded pipe has been around for more than a century and probably no lawyers involved.

You are very fortunate to have the Burnham rep on your side on this. And that the contractor will fix this up....I would guess withholding final payment has introduced some incentive on his part. I wonder if any factory reps ever look here for the disasters of replacements that show up using their products.

So are you getting 4 pipes dropped down to the wet return?
Clean outs in that wet return are a standard as that is the mud trap before the boiler, a valve or drain on each end would be good.
Then a skim port with nipple and ball valve is necessary.
That may be labeled in another diagram for the boiler, called skim port or blow down port.
Then for main air venting, if you look in the Lost Art book it will show you the best place for main air vents.
I would go for a tapping into each of the 4 drops. Maybe you don't need all of them but you can imagine trying to add them later.

IMO, I believe you want to vent the end of each of the two steam mains separately. This will get the air out of the steam main and deliver steam to the end so that each rad will have steam to it as soon as possible. You want the steam to come all the way to the end of each main separately without one main crossing over to the other to close a vent early......you have this now.

Then again IMO, I believe you want to vent the dry return separately to avoid the same cross over as mentioned above.
All the air in the radiators will come thru the dry returns.
Hopefully no steam....but if it somehow finds it way thru it may close the air vents and not vent the radiators if cross over happens. If you have the awareness of the system operation then you need no air vents on the returns....rather just an open pipe riser to vent air. I have done this in some much larger systems and use the air vent pipe to look for steam passing thru traps and isolate which section has the problem.....but if you have orifices in each valve and keep the pressure to your design point then you should pass no steam.

The point is that if each of these 4 returning pipes have their "feet" well under water in the bit of wet return you have, then they cannot affect (kick) any of the other 3.

Is your main leaving the boiler room 3"?

dobro23

carco- sent you a direct message. i live and work in the area.

Dave T_2

Without orifice valves to control the flow of steam into each radiator, steam pressure is building up in both the supply and returns. Once the return pressure equals the supply pressure, steam no longer flows and the system short cycles on pressure with little movement of heat.

Installing orifice or metering valves now may prove too challenging on a number of fronts.

If I was stuck with this scenario my first thought is to install a adiator vent on each radiator on the end oppisite the piped end.
There may be an accessible tapping available now, great, use it, if not drill and tap a 1/8" pipe thread to install the vent. Your system will work in spite of the bad piping.

Carco

@JUGHNE the main leaving the boiler room is 2-1/2" and then ts off to 2". Update: plumber is doing the repairs on December 5th. I'll take photos of the work once completed.

Carco

@dobro23 thanks. I'll reach out to you soon.

Jamie Hall

I'm afraid I can't agree with @Dave T_2 "s suggestion to put vents on the radiators. Yes, they may work. After a fashion. No, it won't work well. It won't balance well. Since this is two pipe steam, one could even ask what "at the end opposite the piped end". It may hammer. And so on.

The effort to drill and tap and put vents on is much greater than getting a bunch o orifice plates, undoing the unions and putting them in.

Do it right, or don't mess with it at all.

And I understand you have been in contact with @dobro23 . Carry on. I haven't seen his work personally, but I do know him and he is patient and does good work -- and does it right.

MikeL_2

While I don't consider myself a steam expert, I have worked on similar systems ( with the help & advice from this forum ) in the Danbury area. Several neighborhoods of large, vintage residences from the teens & 20's still have a few homes with original steam & gravity hydronic heating systems.  Many of these homes have been converted to forced hot air. 
      Carco, I was wondering if there are missing radiators, or perhaps you could add some to get the EDR closer to the size of the new boiler? Also, I would be interested to see the before & after near boiler piping if you wouldn't mind me stopping by?

Carco

@MikeL_2 Sure. You can stop by and have a look. And as far as adding back some radiators I can one. Send me a DM and we'll set something up. When I moved it, I had one removed near the door and one in the bathroom upstairs. In the playroom, I could potentially add it one back if needed. 

Carco

@Jamie Hall I will not be installing vents at the radiators. Once the boiler piping is installed to spec with black threaded piping, my plan is to add even venting at the end of the mains and add steam traps to all radiators. 

JUGHNE

FWIW, the new steam valves you have do not respond well to adjusting the flow into the radiators. They were not designed that well to throttle steam flow. You might get them adjusted but the expansion and contraction of valve stems will make them "walk" open and shut from your setting.
The rad traps will allow steam to go completely across the rad if the run time is extensive. Possibly leading to over heating in some rooms.
Most rads are over sized in heat capacity and not meant to necessarily heat completely across.

In some cases I have installed 60 to 80 % orifices for systems that already had traps. This meant that the traps never had to operate (therefore not needed).

Happy Thanksgiving!

Steamhead

Jamie Hall said:

I'm afraid I can't agree with @Dave T_2 "s suggestion to put vents on the radiators. Yes, they may work. After a fashion. No, it won't work well. It won't balance well. Since this is two pipe steam, one could even ask what "at the end opposite the piped end". It may hammer. And so on.

The effort to drill and tap and put vents on is much greater than getting a bunch o orifice plates, undoing the unions and putting them in.

Do it right, or don't mess with it at all.

And I understand you have been in contact with @dobro23 . Carry on. I haven't seen his work personally, but I do know him and he is patient and does good work -- and does it right.

THIS!

Carco

@JUGHNE as much as I want to explore the orifice option, I can't seem to find that option accessible. If I had somewhere to buy them I would then test them first before committing to $30 traps for each rad.

Steamhead

Carco said:

@JUGHNE as much as I want to explore the orifice option, I can't seem to find that option accessible. If I had somewhere to buy them I would then test them first before committing to $30 traps for each rad.

https://www.tunstall-inc.com/macon-controls/steam-radiator-inlet-orifice-plates/

JUGHNE

When I called Tunstall at (413) 594-8695 and was told someone would call back, I thought yea, maybe.
Soon, I get a call from one of the family owners ...T.P. Tunstall himself.
I was amazed with the friendly service provided.

They gave me the name and number of the wholesale supplier whom I could order the plates thru. I did not have an open account with that supplier but just paid with credit card.

They would sell to you if you sound like you know what you need......12 to 15 or so 3/4" copper cup type inlet orifice, drilled to 1/8" or even blank if they have them.
(Tunstall-CCTIO-75)


I am sure some suppliers in your area might even stock them.
If I can get them out here in flyover Nebraska with 2 phone calls, I am fairly certain you can get them easily on the East coast.
Drill sizing is actually quite easy in the field.

I have never seen a reputable radiator steam trap for $30.
More like double that price.
Plus a fair amount of labor involved for install.
The existing spud will have to be cut out and the remaining elbow unscrewed.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Tunstall
is located in the town I live in. They have always been good to work with. Give them a call.

The orifice route will be less expensive than traps but while traps may be the sure fix orifice's may require a little experimentation.

I agree with @Jamie Hall and @Steamhead don't go the airvent route

Dave T_2

Thanks to all for sharing. I learned alot about this oriface style of steam heat. In my area in North Central MA steam is very common and in the 45 years I have worked in the field I have never encountered one!

Question: can an oriface plate be purchsed that will simply fit into the valve union of most radiator valves?

Thanks again,

JUGHNE

Dave, all the orifices discussed above will fit in supply valve unions. I have come across only one where it would work.

You can do a search on this site for "Orifices" and there are other discussions on the matter.