which way should main steam pipe from boiler pitch?

Charlie from wmass

You need to document why it is cycling. Is it pressure or water level? Have you clocked the meter? Some gas valves come through miss adjusted.

borowiec

Thanks, I guess I'll try to find someone who can add the gas valve as well as the Hoffman vents.

Charlie from wmass

I am not ready to condemn the installers ability to improve the performance. I am also assuming that work beyond the scope of the original contract will be additional money

Charlie from wmass

Btw changing the valve would not be an option for my clients as it is not code compliant to alter the equipment and could void your warranty.

Dave0176

Charlie from wmass said:

Btw changing the valve would not be an option for my clients as it is not code compliant to alter the equipment and could void your warranty.

It will void the warranty. WM Rep told me so, however I would rather chance it then deal with cycling. I and many others have converted these boilers with much success. And yes Massachusetts is just insane with rules, thankfully I don’t work there.

Charlie from wmass

We use National Fire Protection Association code. So it is against code many places and voids underwriters laboratories certification. I prefer to not open clients to insurance companies loopholes. Also combustion is not well controlled in chimney vented boilers by simply adjusting gas without changing excess air.

Jamie Hall

Umm... why on earth would you want to mess with something like changing the gas valve, which may or may not work and may or may not leave you uninsured on your house, never mind no warranty, than "deal with the cycling"? Cycling never hurt anything. It may not be absolutely the most efficient way to deal with an oversized boiler, but the efficiency hit is small -- perhaps 1 percent -- and it doesn't create any other problems.

borowiec

Thanks for all the help. I guess I will try to find someone who can install the gas valve, as well as Hoffman vents.

borowiec

Sorry, I missed seeing the comments on the third page and re-posted my thanks, thinking my post hadn't gone through!

I was under the impression that the cycling resulted in higher gas consumption, partly because our bill for November was about 50% higher than last year's. If it doesn't use more gas, it's less of a concern. The cycling itself if not that bothersome now that I've disconnected the Vaporstat—the boiler will run for about four minutes before shutting off, instead of 90 seconds on the Vaporstat, so the house does get heat. On the Vaporstat it was taking 3-4 hours to rise from 62F to 68F in the mornings.

I didn't realize adding a gas valve would void the warranty; I doubt I will find a plumber willing to do that.

I'll talk to the installer about the cycling tomorrow, I guess at the very least I will bite the bullet and have him install a better vent, or a second one.

And some time next summer I suppose we'll have the problematic return line re-piped...

ethicalpaul

That 6 degree nightly setback isn’t helping your cycling situation...can you live with 3 degrees?

borowiec

If raising the thermostat to 65 at night reduces the cycling, I'll do that. Anyway, now that gas is so cheap, I'm not sure the setback thermostat is all that important.

lchmb

How about a picture of the site glass on the boiler? i think I'd be skimming it a few times..then again..is there a skim port added into the boiler? I may have missed it.. the only other issue I see, if everything on the boiler is exactly the same, with the exception of the new blocks, maybe it's time to consider the blocks...

Jamie Hall

Couple of thoughts. First, 3 to 4 hours to raise the temperature degrees is, perhaps, a bit long -- but not outrageous (a 3 degree setback on the main place I run takes well over an hour).

Second keep in mind what I said about cycling. If this cycling is occurring after the boiler has been running for a while, and the radiation is mostly or all filled with steam, that extra two and a half minutes of fuel burn (comparing the vapourstat at a minute and a half to the pressuretrol at 4 minutes) is entirely wasted fuel. All you have accomplished is to raise the pressure of the steam that is already in there -- the steam isn't going to condense any faster, nor the building heat faster (at least not at the pressures we are concerned with here, for the exact types reading this).

Think about it.

Or compare it to stop and go traffic. If you are in stop and go traffic, and the semi ahead of you is stationary, no amount of revving your engine and pounding on the horn is going to move you one inch further forward.

Charlie from wmass

I strongly suggest that you change the return piping as soon as you can. It is a source for many of the issues

Fred

@borowiec , forget the Hoffman vent (probably a Hoffman #75). They are way too small for almost any system, especially one as large as yours and where cycling is an issue. Main vents are sized based on the diameter and length of the main(s). That tells us how much air needs to be evacuated, as quickly as possible, which reduces boiler run time and hence reduces pressure build up. Tel us the size of each main and we can tyell you which vent to use. My guess is at least one Barnes and Jones Big Mouth which has almost 3 times the capacity of the Gorton #2 and 5 or 6 times the capacity of the Hoffman #75. All of which cost about the same.
If you are going to pay a plumber to change a vent, make it worth your money.

ethicalpaul

> @borowiec said:
> If raising the thermostat to 65 at night reduces the cycling, I'll do that. Anyway, now that gas is so cheap, I'm not sure the setback thermostat is all that important.

Yes, plus you are using a lot of gas to raise the temperature of all the mass in your house back up to 68 anyway

neilc

I think you need to concentrate on main venting before anything else now.
You need to get the air out of those ends of mains or it just pushes back on the steam, and builds your pressure, and is part of your cycling concern.
If you at all handy you could swap that one above your boiler yourself.
The vents you need at the ends of mains are a bit more involved.
Someone would need to break into the pipes, or drill and add service saddles.
For this I think your plumber may be your guy.
He really didn't do a bad job at the boiler. He just didn't do the whole system, as that job.

borowiec

I certainly can swap out the vent on the dry return above the boiler myself. The question is, what to replace it with? From what I'm reading, a Barnes and Jones Big Mouth air vent is the best option, right?

As for adding vents to the ends of the main pipes, I would have to get a plumber to do that. However, the principal main end is in my darkroom (see photos on page 1 with hanging radiator), so that's a problem: that's not a room into which I want to release steam. As it is, I have a dehumidifier running almost all the time in there to keep down the humidity so that negatives and photo paper can be stored properly.

One consequence of turning up the thermostat at night is that now the condensate in the return doesn't have time to drain away past whatever blockage is there. We used to not get hammering until late morning, now it's all night and pretty much every time the boiler runs.

borowiec

Jamie, about your traffic comparison: with the Vaporstat and 90-second heating cycles, it takes much, much longer for the house to heat up than with the 4-minute cycles on the Pressuretrol.

Dan_NJ

borowiec said:

... I suspect he will discount any suggestions I pass on that I found on the internet.

This place is not just the "internet", it's a gold mine of expertise, information and experience, and people willing to share it when it comes to steam. It's getting harder to find all the time as you know from experience. Send him a link if he dismisses your suggestions.

borowiec

I'm done arguing with that plumber. I just spoke with Gerry Gill in Cleveland and he's coming down here to look at things on Thursday! They didn't use to come as far as Akron but he said they do now. It will be a huge relief to have someone who knows what he's doing involved.

Again, many thanks to all of you for your help and suggestions! Dan_NJ, I completely agree with you about the value of the internet.

JUGHNE

As far as the vent in the dark room, it should not release steam, however it will pass warm humid air.
The tap could be in the dark room and a 3/4" pipe extended thru the wall into another room. It just must have slope back to the main to drain condensate back.

Darkroom...hobby or business?
I dabbled in that years ago, was fun.
My SLR's are gathering dust since digital.

Charlie from wmass

I prefer gorton 2 vents in areas where accidental discharge of condensate would cause damage. Big mouth vents have no safety floats.

borowiec

Charlie, Gerry Gill uses Gorton vents according to his web site. In any case, I will defer to his judgement, same with how to vent the main in the darkroom.

JUGHNE, yes I'm a photographer. If you search by my name (first name Andrew) you'll find my web site.

Fred

@gerry gill is one of the best! Great choice. I'm sure Gerry uses Gortons but I know he is a big fan of the Barnes and Jones Vari-vent that allows him to balance mains. I think that vent was the result of a collaboration between him and Barnes and Jones, @Sailah

iPipefitter

I know this is kind of a gravedig post, but maybe hire a certified mechanical contractor pipefitter/steamfitter in your area. Contractors that have union backing, usually do outstanding work. I was in the new construction field as a union steamfitter near Chicago for many years, now I went in-house and plan to start a business someday. I personally would never trust a plumber to work on anything steam related or even natural gas related. Just my opinion. If you go union or non union make sure they have pipefitting background not just general HVAC or plumbing. There's so much to know about steam and how to make it work to it's full capabilities.

Charlie from wmass

@iPipefitter I am a plumber.pretty sure people would trust me.

Jamie Hall

Charlie from wmass said:

@iPipefitter I am a plumber.pretty sure people would trust me.

Sure would, Charles!

AdmiralYoda

I just read through all the comments patiently waiting for the outcome from the advice/solutions of @gerry gill .

I'm thinking the problem was solved quickly as the original poster @borrowiec stopped posting.

Anyone know what the culprit(s) was?

pecmsg

iPipefitter said:

I know this is kind of a gravedig post, but maybe hire a certified mechanical contractor pipefitter/steamfitter in your area. Contractors that have union backing, usually do outstanding work. I was in the new construction field as a union steamfitter near Chicago for many years, now I went in-house and plan to start a business someday. I personally would never trust a plumber to work on anything steam related or even natural gas related. Just my opinion. If you go union or non union make sure they have pipefitting background not just general HVAC or plumbing. There's so much to know about steam and how to make it work to it's full capabilities.

As a retired UA Local 638 NYC Fitter it would be an honor and a privilege to work with Charlie. The Union has nothing to do with it. There are many Non Union men out there that you could learn a thing or 2 from!

Charlie from wmass

@pecmsg thank you. I respect and appreciate what the union has done for our trades and I do wish that the non-union shops would value training as much as the union does. Back in the early 1960s my father was in the plumbers and pipefitters Union out of Pittsfield Massachusetts. Had I not taken the path of being self-employed I would most likely be in the union today.