which way should main steam pipe from boiler pitch?

borowiec

KC, I can't find the link that you mention in your earlier post for sizing my radiators. Would you please post that? Thanks!

KC_Jones

http://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/boiler-replacement-guide.pdf
Go to page 9 of this document. Post back if you have a rad not on the chart and someone could help.

If the boiler is sized correctly awesome! IF it is not, even though they won't do anything, you at least know how to move forward with getting things corrected.

Also don't forget about that water usage issue. 11 gallons in that short a period is way over the top, don't want to kill the new boiler prematurely like the last one.

borowiec

Okay, thanks!

Regarding pressure, the Pressuretrol that's on there was a backup on the old boiler in case the Vaporstat failed.

KC_Jones

The reused an old safety and didn't reinstall the vaporstat? The boiler comes with a new pressuretrol so I would think they would have installed it.

Vaporstat is a separate purchase item that they would have had to add.

borowiec

The plumber was just here and agrees with the diagnoses that I reached with your help: the issues being the drip return and the pressure being too high. We did not discuss boiler size.

He's going to reinstall a Vaporstat so we can set the pressure low enough and replace the main (and only) steam vent , which is ancient and may explain the water loss. There are no leaks of steam or water anywhere else in the house.

He says that attempting to flush out the drip line would just create additional problems, as the pipes are as old as the house. i.e. 106 years, and are likely to break rather than unscrew. So he's going to give me a price for replacing that whole line, but I will have to open the walls myself to keep the cost down. As there are multiple elbows and several tees in the line, there are probably multiple blockages.

In truth, I think lowering the pressure by going back to a Vaporstat should help a lot, as we didn't have hammering with the previous boiler.

I will do the radiator/boiler size calculation at some later date, I've already lost a lot of time on this issue.

Many thanks to all of you for your help in figuring this out!

Jamie Hall

Did you by any chance keep that mercury Vapourstat? If not, the company that put in the new boiler effectively stole it. Those things are good forever, and are quite expensive. They should either return it in the same condition, or should replace it with a new, calibrated one plus a low pressure gauge on their dime.

ethicalpaul

> I will do the radiator/boiler size calculation at some later date, I've already lost a lot of time on this issue.

I had to chuckle at this because since I found this resource and Dan's book, I have spent an awful lot of time (and some dollars too), but I've not considered it a loss

JUGHNE

Before I would go thru the grief cutting open walls and replacing the return....which BTY will not guarantee fixing the problem, I would flush from the boiler end.
If it does not work then nothing lost.

The old piping ends in a tee with I assume has the water fill line in the top branch. The new copper connects there and it would be easy to disconnect that new male adaptor and connect a temporary drain hose fitting with a valve. Then use the manual water fill to back flow into the return. Again back and forth with water and wash sludge out. Replacing the return would require cutting the copper out anyway.

In either case whoever does this will wish there was a low drain port/hose (as there should have been) to drain out the wet return....not just the boiler.

The first filling of the boiler would have washed water back into the return and might possibly caused the blockage, if there is one.

As far as water usage/loss, is this hidden return pipe such that a leak would show itself on the floor?

Does your sight glass show too high after the boiler has been off for several hours.....possible slow condensate return.

That extra water could be trapped in your piping with each cycle and not return at all.

Is the darkroom rad heating or could it be full of water?
Is the return for that connected to the suspicious pipe?

You can do the feel the pipe temp test from the vertical drop to the boiler. Any cold pipe in between each end may be the blockage.

I have been called lazy for looking for an easy way out, trying to avoid repair work like this and attempting to just fix something.

Occasionally though, someone will insinuate that I work smarter not harder.

borowiec

The plumber has returned and installed our old Vaporstat. However, now there is something else wrong: the boiler will not stay one for more than 50 seconds. On the plumber's suggestion I bypassed the Vaporstat (the Pressuretrol is still on there too) but that didn't make a difference. We're now shivering and waiting for the plumber.

Jughne, thanks for your suggestions. As we don't have heat, I can't try some of them at the moment, and am going out of town for a week tomorrow, so I will do so upon my return. If there were a leak from the return line, it would have to be in a section of pipe that is inaccessible, buried in the ground or concrete under our front porch: it exits from the darkroom at the question mark and re-enters the house in the closet by location E. Plumber suggested that it could have been leaking for years, we would have no way of knowing as there wasn't a counter on the old water feeder.

Jamie Hall

A few thoughts. First, check the leveling of the vapourstat. They are very sensitive to being off level, and it is quite possible that it is. There are two ways to do this: in the case, on the back, there is a plumb bob. That is a good way. A double check is to put a short level -- say a 6 inch -- on the top of the case. It should show level. Double check by reversing the level, as always.

That, however, is not likely to be the problem, as you say the problem continued when you bypassed the vapourstat. So... what you need to do is to find out exactly which control it is that is stopping the firing. Not difficult, really, for someone who has some idea as to how to use a multimeter...

borowiec

Well, first I determined that the controls were working fine, and that the boiler was stopping with either one in use. Then I noticed that the analog pressure gauge was showing 2 pounds, and that was when the boiler was turning off: the pressure was unusually high, despite being set at 1/2 psi on the Pressuretrol and at 2 ounces on the Vaportstat. Eventually I remembered that yesterday, in addition to installing the Vaporstat, the plumber also installed a new steam valve, as the old one was spewing steam. And that was the problem: the pressure was building up because the new valve was defective, it wouldn't open. Now there's a new valve in place and things seem to be working fine...

Charlie from wmass

Plugged return

JUGHNE

At this point it is looking like you might need a new wet return if there are places a leak would not be visible. If a tee, isolation valve and hose connection was cut into each end and then do the back flush.

If after flushing, you could isolate the return and a clear open top vinyl tubing was installed on the hose connection on each end the "U" of piping and then filled with water you could see if the water level falls. Indicating a leak underground.

Just an idea, each end of the return will have to be cut into in any event.

That would eliminate any guess work of whether or not you have a leak.

borowiec

I'm back in town. The plumber refuses to do any flushing, he says the only solution is to replace all the piping in that return line, for $. I can try to find another plumber willing to cut the lines to flush it out, but in any case that will have to wait for warmer weather. If there is a leak, it could only be in a section of the return that is buried underground and completely inaccessible.

In the meantime, we have another problem: the boiler keeps cycling on and off, so that it takes hours for the house to reach the set temperature. The Vaporstat was disconnected for the past two weeks, the boiler was being controlled by the Pressuretrol. I have put the Vaporstat back on line but don't know what it should be set at. I asked the plumber, but he just said they left it at what it was set at on the old boiler and did not offer any suggestions. Those settings were 12oz on the main and 5oz on the diff. If I understand correctly that means that the boiler will come on when the pressure drops to 7oz and will shut off when the pressure reaches 12oz. That seems high to me, I thought a two-pipe system required much lower pressures.

Charlie from wmass

We do not discuss prices here. The issue with trying to flush underground pipes is that in my experience it frequently opens them up and increases the leakage Underground. I would tend to agree with changing out the return piping rather than wasting time and resources flushing the piping. If it is underground it is as old as the original heating system and is far overdue to be replaced.

Jamie Hall

Agree with @Charlie from wmass on the underground return. Not worth the effort.

On the cycling. The pressures you have set seem quite reasonable, so I will ask: how long after the boiler fires up does it go until it starts to cycle? What are the cycle timings? I still don't see what the system EDR is, nor what the boiler's EDR is, so I can't comment on how oversize, if any, it is... and without that, it's kind of hard to decide whether the cycling is inadequate venting or just simply an oversize boiler.

borowiec

My apologies for mentioning price!

The return lines that would be replaced are not underground, they run around the outside wall of the basement. There are no visible leaks but our water consumption since mid-November has been 12 gallons, so that's why it's been suggested that there's a leak in the underground part.

On the cycling: the boiler runs for a minute and a half to two minutes, then shuts off, then starts up again a minute or so later. This goes on for hours until the thermostat temperature is reached. The old boiler didn't do that and the new boiler is exactly the same model as the old one, therefore the same size, but obviously something has changed.

What is EDR?

Jamie Hall

Does it start cycling like that right away when it starts, or does it wait a while -- say 15 to 20 minutes -- after it starts and gets warm? Makes a big difference in the diagnosis.

It would be useful to know which of several safeties is shutting off the boiler...

EDR is "equivalent direct radiation" and is a measure of how big the radiators are. It's also found on the boiler rating plate, and is a statement of how much radiation the boiler matches.

The fact that the new boiler is the same as the old boiler is not necessarily good -- the old one may have been oversize. They often are.

borowiec

When the boiler first comes on in the early morning we are too far away to hear it, so I don't know if it cycles right away. I know that when I come downstairs it's cycling and it takes several hours before it reaches the set temperature. Also, if I turn up the thermostat to make it come on, it cycles right away.

Is this the boiler rating plate?

Dave0176

borowiec said:

When the boiler first comes on in the early morning we are too far away to hear it, so I don't know if it cycles right away. I know that when I come downstairs it's cycling and it takes several hours before it reaches the set temperature. Also, if I turn up the thermostat to make it come on, it cycles right away.

Is this the boiler rating plate?

@borowiec That is a BIG boiler 770 sq ft of steam output (EDR). You really need to measure the radiators to come up an EDR. Here is a chart I use which has most of the basic radiators listed.

Dave0176

Also your draft damper is installed in the wrong location, is supposed to be installed on top of the draft hood.

borowiec

It is a big house (4500 square feet) and there are some very big radiators, 10-feet long in the living room. Still, I will measure and do the calculations, and will post the results.

About the draft damper, could you re-post my photo showing where it should be?

Charlie from wmass

Old one may have had a leak so it never built pressure.

Jamie Hall

The fact that it starts cycling right away when you turn the thermostat up, and that it didn't do that with the old one, makes me just a wee bit suspicious of some other safety than pressure making it cycle (although @Charlie from wmass has a very good point about leaks). Such as, for instance, a misbehaving or poorly placed low water cutoff?

borowiec

If Charlie means that the old boiler had a leak, that is correct, that's why it had to be replaced after only 15 years.

How would I know if the low water cutoff is wrong?

Dave0176

@borowiec is there a way to get one us pros to your house to get a good assumption of what’s going on. Biggest question, were are you located.

borowiec

Dave0176, I'm in Akron, Ohio. The only contractor that shows up in the listing on heatinghelp is in Cleveland and they told me a few years ago that they wouldn't travel to Akron, or I would have hired them a long time ago.

borowiec

I have bypassed the Vaporstat and now the cycling is less frequent, the boiler runs for about four minutes before shutting off, then restarts after a minute or so. It's controlled by the Pressuretrol, set at 1/2psi, with diff at 1.

I don't know if this is related, but our gas consumption for November was about 50% higher than the previous year with the old boiler.

I'm going to measure the radiators this morning to calculate the system EDR.

Dave0176

Yes in Ohio @gerry gill is it.

neilc

has main venting been discussed here yet ?

borowiec

I suppose I could contact them again, that was a few years ago, maybe they've changed their policy.

KC_Jones

I thought @gerry gill went to Akron? Maybe he just had enough work in Cleveland?

borowiec

Re venting, it's been mentioned that the draft damper is in the wrong place...

neilc

Steam Main Venting,
I think I see a riser on the return that's over the boiler,
and I think that is possibly a main vent on top there,
or it's a dry return.
But in all your pictures I don't think I see any steam main vents.
What do you have for steam main vents?
cause that will be affecting your pressure cycling.

borowiec

Answers to questions:

EDR: the total square footage of all the radiators is approximately 614.5. It's approximate because there were a couple of radiators that were not in the Weil-McClain guide but I interpolated between two adjacent sizes.

DRAFT DAMPER: am I correct in understanding that the damper should be at the location I've circled in the photo below, instead of on the pipe above it?




STEAM MAIN VENTING: I don't think there is a vent on the main line, only on a return that is over the boiler, see photos. The plumber did propose to make a tee and add a second vent next to that one but, when I contacted him to do that, he had already been paid and now wanted to charge me extra. He also suggested that a Hoffman vent would be more effective but that, too, would be a lot of money. It seems to be that the proper functioning of the boiler should be included in the cost of installation, as the issues are all issues that were not present with the old, identical, boiler.

Jamie Hall

Argh. That is probably what passes for a main vent. It's way too small -- for a system with a boiler that size, regardless of mains, you need at least two Gorton #2s.

Now as to location. If, and only if, the mains have crossover traps at the ends which go into the dry returns, you can -- and should -- get away with having those main vents more or less where that one is. However, if you don't have crossover traps -- never did, or someone took them out -- you must have main vents at the ends of each of the steam mains.

The difference in the cycle timing is another clue to inadequate main venting. What is happening is that with the inadequate vents the pressure rises to push the air out. The vapourstat senses that -- that's what it's supposed to do -- and shut things off until the vents can catch up. The pressurestat operates more on the bigger hammer principle, and just fires longer to build more pressure to force the air out. The extra firing doesn't help with the heating, so I fuel you don't need to burn. If you had adequate main venting.

On who is responsible for what -- the boiler and the rest of the system should be regarded as all parts of one big system. However, if the job contracted for was to replace the boiler, and that's what your man did, then I can see his point that the venting problems aren't part of the boiler installation. Sorry about that.

And the boiler is about 25% oversize for the rest of the system. No help for that, and not unusual...

Dave0176

@borowiec So 614 EDR, you’dve been better off with the EG65 at 654 sq ft. Remember the 770 sq ft rating is net, so according to the DOE output your boiler actually outputs 1023 sq ft.

My recommendation would be to install a two stage gas valve along with your vaporstat. What this does is, once the boiler starts on regular fire it’ll run until it builds pressure to say 10 oz steam, then the vaporstat will click and operate the low fire solenoid so pressure will either drop or maintain, I usually set the low setting on the vaporstat to 4 oz, if the pressure should drop to that point it’ll kick back up to regular (High) fire.

Also you most definitely need waaaay much more venting, if this is a vacuum system then you’ll need a couple Hoffman 76 main vac valves.

borowiec

Jamie, there are no vents at the end of the steam mains. The only vent in the entire system is the one in the photo above.
I don't know if there were traps at the ends of the main at one time but I don't see any now. Here is a photo of the main pipe at the opposite end of the basement from the boiler, it just goes into a riser to upstairs radiators.
So my plumber's suggestion to add a second vent in a tee next to the one that he already installed makes sense? Note that the vent that he replaced was very different from the one he installed. I don't know the brand but it looked like photos I've seen online of a Hoffman vent, only it was painted green.

borowiec

Dave0176, I don't think there is much I can do about the boiler being too big. The plumber claims that he sized it correctly fifteen years ago when he installed the earlier boiler. Even if I get him to agree that the one he just put in is too big, he's not going to replace it!
He has already offered to put in a Hoffman vent in a tee next to the existing vent but I doubt I can get him to put in a gas valve, as I suspect he will discount any suggestions I pass on that I found on the internet. So it would be better to have two Hoffman 76 valves side by side, rather than just one plus the existing valve?
I confess that at this point I don't have much confidence in the plumber, but I can't find any recommendations for another option in my area.

Dave0176

borowiec said:

Dave0176, I don't think there is much I can do about the boiler being too big. The plumber claims that he sized it correctly fifteen years ago when he installed the earlier boiler. Even if I get him to agree that the one he just put in is too big, he's not going to replace it!
He has already offered to put in a Hoffman vent in a tee next to the existing vent but I doubt I can get him to put in a gas valve, as I suspect he will discount any suggestions I pass on that I found on the internet. So it would be better to have two Hoffman 76 valves side by side, rather than just one plus the existing valve?
I confess that at this point I don't have much confidence in the plumber, but I can't find any recommendations for another option in my area.

Not saying replace the boiler, it’s brand new, however if you still have cycling issues, remember that the gas valve is still an option. And no I wouldn’t put much confidence in that plumber, he really hasn’t a clue about steam systems.