Weil-McLain flipped us the bird

JUGHNE

Having read many postings and understand the distain towards the Cycleguard, I have a simple question:
Where do all these changed out Cycleguards end up at.
Must be a fair cost to change them out on a new install.
Do these brand new rejects have any future anywhere?
Just curious, thanks.

ethicalpaul

I think they should have run a single on the Williamson and other down brands and kept the two supply on their premium WM brand, but what do I know? Not much! 😂

Danny Scully

The problem I see is that you’re limiting the contractor. I made a decision a long time ago to always use both risers, full size. This is my standard. I get to determine that, not the manufacturer. My reasoning isn’t only for velocity reasons. I find using both risers stabilizes the waterline. When only 1 riser is used you can really see the water in the gauge glass pull in that direction.

coelcanth

i wonder if improper installations that created stresses on the boiler sections caused warranty issues that influenced their decision to go to a single tapping ?

Fred

This WM change can be debated from now on. There are probably many good arguments for using only one or using both riser tappings. At the end of the day and as I said in an earlier post, "Perception" will determine the impact on market share for these boilers going forward. There are some Home owners who won't care or who don't know the difference BUT, it is not usually the HO that installs the majority of these boilers. If the PRO feels a manufacturer is limiting their installation options or the quality of their installations, they will move to another manufacturer. Plain and simple. There are other options out there. It's not like WM has any competitive edge or value add in their product offering, as it relates to cast iron boilers.

Boiler wrestler

I’ve learned much from this forum and TLAOSH. None of what I’ve learned says one tapping on a steam boiler. Use both tappings, never reduce. The manufacturer guidelines are a minimum. I’ve fought many plugs out of EG blocks swearing at them. Never did I imagine it was going to be a fond memory. I’m disappointed.

Dave0176

Spoke to my supply house owner he spoke with the local rep, it is what it is, however what doesn’t make sense is he said the knockdown EGs will still be tapped on both.

Dave0176

> @Charlie from wmass said:
> 25 years is good to me considering the other sludge and scale build up in a steam boilers. As far it limiting piping options this is hardly an issue even in the tightest boiler room. Guys there are bigger problems in the universe of steam heating. Time to fix so heat and I choose wm because it is a good middle ground but also I have successfully installed my long disliked Utica boiler to great success. Quit nitpicking. Steam on.

@Charlie from wmass you make some valid points however @EzzyT and I were talking about this, and you know what we have a certain standard with which each of us works by, and we’re not going to change that standard for anyone let alone let a boiler company dictate what we do. It’s our money, it’s our businesses, it’s our standards we live by.

Weil-McLain just proved to us they don’t care about us, they told no one, they just “rolled with it” that’s in parentheses because that’s exactly how the rep put it. I found out on a job at 8:00 in the morning with a header that we prefabbed at the shop wasn’t going to work now. Needless to people weren’t happy.

From now on Peerless boiler company will get our business.

Dave0176

> @JUGHNE said:
> Having read many postings and understand the distain towards the Cycleguard, I have a simple question:
> Where do all these changed out Cycleguards end up at.
> Must be a fair cost to change them out on a new install.
> Do these brand new rejects have any future anywhere?
> Just curious, thanks.

@JUGHNE they sit on our trucks or in our shops until we get tired of looking at them, then we throw them in the garage.

The cyclegaurd is there to protect against the stupid installer whom doesn’t know how to pipe a steam boiler or skim a boiler.

STEAM DOCTOR

Would never let those abominations sit in my truck. Strait to the garbage for me

ChrisJ

> @Boiler wrestler said:
> I’ve learned much from this forum and TLAOSH. None of what I’ve learned says one tapping on a steam boiler. Use both tappings, never reduce. The manufacturer guidelines are a minimum. I’ve fought many plugs out of EG blocks swearing at them. Never did I imagine it was going to be a fond memory. I’m disappointed.

So you feel an EG-35 needs two 3" risers?
Seriously?

Dave0176

@Charlie from wmass
I put together a steam velocity chart for the EG using WMs single pipe minimum requirements and then what I used on my installs.

Charlie from wmass

If you quit using these boilers due to this I am sorry for your limiting your own options. If you think 2 risers is a one size fits all answer you have abandoned your use of physics. Physics is the scripture of hydronics. It is a none bending fact that we should follow. If you want excessive piping and overly complicated solutions to simple systems you will bring an end to steam heating. But hey what do I know? I just am out here doing it every day. The only answer to a problem is it depends, we will check the Math.

GBart

I had a terrible problem with a WM large commercial boiler once, we had 2 sections cracked and got replacements and they didn't line up to the old sections, we were told that the old sections were cast off and the new ones were dead on, I dunno, I did sections for years and never had any not align, the one where you have to align 3 push nipples, one would be off by 1/16th or so.

Fred

@Charlie from wmass , I truly respect your knowledge and skill set and I realize the WM change is not your battle to fight. Having said that, I also respect the skills and knowledge of the other Pros who are weighing in on this subject. It is not at all about physics alone. It is also about the standard a Pro sets for him/herself, individually. It is about the option to plumb using the right or left riser tapping or the right or left return, based on the requirements of specific installations. In my mind, if an installer has to use as much pipe and labor to design a longer header to get to a main or a longer return or to build out the equalizer because the only WM option is the single tapping or removal of a return tapping, I don't see a downside to using other boilers that better fit the installation and/or the Installers standards? In my mind, it really isn't much of a discussion, except to maybe hope WM actually does want feedback. They made a business decision and each and every Pro is entitled to that same decision making right, for themselves and their businesses. I don't think it will take too long for this to play out, once these changes become common knowledge in the industry. At a minimum, WM and/or their distribution channels should have published revised specs before shipping the new versions of the product so that Installers aren't taken by surprise at a jobsite, customers aren't inconvenienced when they expect heat and have to wait an additional day or two for a different boiler and dealers/distributors don't incur the cost of returns and the logistics associated with that.

Charlie from wmass

I respect the skill of many here, but it is physics and cost. That is why people have steam to begin with. Steam was the cheaper option for heat in it's day. It was the fin tube against the premium option which was gravity hot water. Steam is the Ford, hot water was the Lincoln. Knowing the truth of it's place in the hydronics history puts it in proper perspective.

Tinman

If anyone out there really believes WM is the only hydronic manufacturer that makes unannounced equipment changes, you're not paying attention. They all do as far my experience dictates.

KC_Jones

I am not going to get into the 2 riser debate on this subject. What I would like to comment on is the terrible customer service here.

I work for an OEM manufacturer of industrial HVAC and Refrigeration equipment. There is no way, absolutely no way we would change a product and not tell people about it. If a change is to be made to any product that potentially impacts the installation of that equipment a bulletin is sent out notifying customers of the change before the change is implemented at the factory. I can't imagine just dumping on a contractor like that.

Customer service is the cornerstone of any business that actually values their business.

"Excellence is achieved by caring more than most people think is
normal and expecting more than most people think is reasonable."

That is one of our company slogans (borrowed from somewhere) and is printed at the top of our employee review sheet. One of the standards that every employee is "graded" on.

Tinman

@KC_Jones - Props to your company for understanding!!!

Danny Scully

You need to dust your books off @Charlie from wmass. And maybe sell the stocks you clearly have in Weil McClain

BobC

It's their company and they can do whatever they want with it - that includes putting the steam boiler division under.

I'm not a pro but I think the real fault here is not one or two tappings, the problem is doing it without alerting people of the change. There are instances where having that second tapping makes a difference in being able to pipe a boiler in tight quarters.

WM has egg all over their face, this was a stupid move on their part.

Bob

ratio

Just think of the savings from not purchasing & installing that plug, let alone drilling & tapping the casting! All that green can go to someone's pocket.

Would've been a better idea to just stop supplying the plug, although I suppose that it would have made some ...creative... piping arrangements that might have been a little simpler if there was just a single tapping open.

Charlie from wmass

@Danny Scully show me a paper from an engineer that shows an issue with a single 3" riser for these tiny boilers. the idea of insisting upon to risers was created by the boiler manufacturers using 2-inch tappings on the residential boilers so that the sections of the boilers could also be used or hot water systems without requiring large bushings. And for the number of leaking II bushings on small boilers because people are too lazy to break out the right size of wrench I don't blame them for removing that tapping. In fact I commend them for it.

Danny Scully

I meant dust off your books on steam and it’s place in heating history. And I already explained why I use 2 risers, it doesn’t only have to do with velocity. And again, I never use bushings. Both tappings, full size. There’s no right or wrong here it’s preference. I have no preference for Weil McClain. Hey, more stock for you @Charlie from wmass

Dave in QCA

I have just sent a link to this thread to the marketing department at Weil-McLain. If they aren't already aware of the complaints, they should be.

I wonder if they are considering eliminating one of the skim tappings? I hope not!

One thing that I would add to this raging argument is that the use of 2 risers, when not absurd, as it would be in the case of an EG-30 for example, would be that 2 risers would have the effect of reducing the horizontal velocity as the steam approaches that end section. Anything that can be done to let the droplets settle down in these tiny steam chests is beneficial to some extent. That said, the minimum piping requirement is acceptable, as is every other factory minimum that comes with these boilers. The best installers out there have figured out how to make them perform better than the "minimum" standard.

The only other thing I have to add is, be nice. This thread has taken on a tone like strangers arguing politics on Facebook. You all are better than that.

SeanBeans

I think if some dead-men took a vote on having one versus two risers on the WM EGs I think 100% they would go with the two...

Jack

Having just heard from some long time industry mates who told me the only reason “climate change “ is a topic is that scientists are only trying to protect their funding, I can say that this place is a cake walk...thankfully, but this IS a friendly place and it is YOUR job to keep it that way. I love reading the steam sections. I haven’t worked with it for decades and life being a humbling experience I know what I don’t know and realize what I forgot or missed, so thank you all. This is what I have gotten having read this thread. I worked with manufacturers and yourselves for 30 yrs, so here goes. A W-M engineer has stated that there is no technical or operational reason for the dual risers on this size unit. W-M’s offense seems to be not leading with the information and training on why they have done so. That, is effective market protection. Cost reduction both for them and you are critical issues. W-M should make a concerted effort to justify the change with training and technically defend their action. To my mind, that is their mistake. I am not aware of steam boiler pricing, but it appears from the comments that W-M has had a better price point. Perhaps their decision is an attempt to HELP the steam business, but again they were ham-fisted in making the change, especially...especially with this steam crowd;). They should have led with the information and training. Their action is “engineering in the bubble” and not appreciating what you all go through. Care must be given in the orientation of appliances and having been a rep for 30 yrs I rarely got to see the good jobs, but boy, did I see some others. Equipment choices are not one-size-fits-all. Does a single riser fit the bill or is it necessary for a dual riser? You are in business. What is good for you...and your customers, especially as the news today is that things may be slowing down. Is a dual riser over-building? Again, I don’t know, but as a cost benefit, in business, being how damned hard it is to make money in contracting, should you look at this again?

Dave0176

I never intended this thread to pit pro against pro, however for all, we believe in certain things and stick to certain standards, your way is not better then my way, and my way is not better then your way. In the end we take what we read from @DanHolohan books and we apply the knowledge to the field, “my thoughts are different from your thoughts” but in the end we’ve put together a system that’s taking many hours from thinking, to wrenching, to the finish, and if my job cost more then your job, so be it, in the end our customers got the best workmanship this day and age is capable of providing. Cheers to all our wonderful wallies and contractors for keeping this wonderful art of steam heating alive and well.

Danny Scully

There’s no malice in this thread, I’m confused as to who is not being nice.

nicholas bonham-carter

I think there is only great disappointment that a manufacturer would alter the design in such a way as to make it more difficult to install, and then not making that change more known before the boiler is sitting in the basement!
Even if you favor the use of the one riser layout over two, for such small boilers, you may miss the option of piping on one side or the other of your choice, instead of the manufacturer’s.—NBC

ChrisJ

Danny Scully said:

There’s no malice in this thread, I’m confused as to who is not being nice.

Emotion is often lost, or confused via text.

Personally I thought a few of the exchanges weren't nice but I could be completely wrong.

ChrisJ

SeanBeans said:

I think if some dead-men took a vote on having one versus two risers on the WM EGs I think 100% they would go with the two...

I've seen quite a few original boilers piped in the 20-30s that didn't have hartford loops or a header. If you asked most of them to vote on how to pipe an EG series they wouldn't care.

They just wanted to earn a living and go home. Most of them would've used propress, pex and PVC if it was available too.

Ironman

Steve Minnich said:

If anyone out there really believes WM is the only hydronic manufacturer that makes unannounced equipment changes, you're not paying attention. They all do as far my experience dictates.

It's that little line in every manual and spec sheet: "We reserve the right to make changes without notice".

It stinks; and any contractor whose been in business very long has been bitten by it.

My experience with almost every manufacturer I've dealt with is "we really don't care about how much grief it causes the contractor. We saved money".

The Steam Whisperer

Ironman has it right IMO. I've only had one boiler manufacturer stand out from the crowd when it comes to relationships to the contractor and that was Slant Fin. It's pretty much the same everywhere. Of course in some cases it has seriously come back to bite the manufacturer. One I heard of was Hoffman's unannounced change to the manufacturing process of trap discs where they would no longer work in vacuum. I've been told on some large jobs here in Chicago, the couple thousand brand new Hoffman trap capsules all had to be pulled and replaced with a competitors model. I'm pretty sure the contractors and engineers that got stung on those jobs to the tune of a couple hundred thousand dollars don't use Hoffman anymore. I've had the same experience with a vacuum pump manufacturer and it's no wonder one of their competitors is having record breaking sales of vacuum pumps and related equipment. Unfortunately everytime one of these stunts is pulled, you end up with dissatisfied customers and that pushes them that much closer to tearing out thier steam. The manufacturer's are often times doing a very good job eliminating their own market. Its the same story all the time......get rich quick mentality and to hell with the future of the industry and even their own company's future.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Dave0176 said:

I never intended this thread to pit pro against pro, however for all, we believe in certain things and stick to certain standards, your way is not better then my way, and my way is not better then your way. In the end we take what we read from @DanHolohan books and we apply the knowledge to the field, “my thoughts are different from your thoughts” but in the end we’ve put together a system that’s taking many hours from thinking, to wrenching, to the finish, and if my job cost more then your job, so be it, in the end our customers got the best workmanship this day and age is capable of providing. Cheers to all our wonderful wallies and contractors for keeping this wonderful art of steam heating alive and well.

Thanks, @Dave0176. Well said.

Jack

Jim R. Okay, here you go. When I was a kid my neighbor was Bill Walton of Collins & Walton a big and successful mechanical contractor in Elmira, NY. I spent a summer working with them when I was16 & 17 (65 & 66) When I ran out of money to finish college, I got a call from Bill telling me that Local 109 of the United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters was accepting apprentice applications. I applied and forgot about it until I got a call from Harry Bauer, the BA for 109 telling me to report to Hogg Nichols tomorrow morning with a 6’ folding rule, a torpedo level and a pair of Channel locks. I told Mr Bauer that I was working for the railroad on the section gang and had to give notice. He said, “It’s your choice.” I showed up at HG and began my apprenticeship in 1970. I met some wonderful men, journeymen, my fathers contemporaries, WWII veterans. There was one fellow, Lou Ferrara, who I credit with getting my head together to finish the program. The day I finished my 5 yr apprenticeship I put my travel card in Beaumont , TX, just across the river from Vidor, the hometown of the TX Chapter of the KKK. Many stories there. . Sarnia, Oswego, Pasco, Edmonton, Craig, Fargo, Tucson, Omaha, Sioux City, Healdsburg and others as a nuclear grade welder. There was a time I could pass any test anywhere. In ‘78 I quit the trade and went into the contracting business in the Napa Valley. In CA I am a licensed GC, Plmgb, Solar and other trades contractor. I had a great opportunity there, but I just cratered. I got so I hated the business. I didn’t go belly up, but it was so close that today, I can’t tell the difference. I had an opportunity to go back east and have a Union job at Cornell. I was supposed to run a crew there, but it became apparent that no one I was supposed to run had any interest in anything but making the job last. Having been self employed I knew that at the end of the day you have to produce. I quit that job with nothing but a wonderful woman and a 2 & 5 yr old. I went back to working with the tools and went to a shutdown at the Fitzpatrick nuclear facility in Oswego(85) My previous shutdown was at a plutonium plant in Pasco (77). Interestingly, last year I got a letter from the DOE asking that I get a physical. I have to kinda chuckle at that. I do have a bit of Cobalt in my thyroid and elsewhere, but perhaps that will offset the asbestos I worked with in my teens. Who knows! After that shut down I was back in Ithaca, NY, finally back with my girls and I ran into an old college classmate. He offered me a job covering the 6 New England States for him in his rep business. I began my career as a Manuf Rep. That is what I think a lot of people in the contracting business should do. I did n’t know I’d be good at it, but with my successes and definitely, my failure, I saw that I could do this really well, and I worked my **** of to be successful at it. In my business as a Rep I never took success for granted because at that point I definitely knew what it was like wonder how you were going to pay the rent. I was lucky. I had a woman who could turn nothing into something.. To this day, I work scared. When things went sideways with the rep company I was working for I was able to get out on my own. My first line was Metalbestos, then Z-Flex and the I introduced Rinnai to the New England Market.. that was in ‘91. I had 20 yrs as a rep who understood the relationships of the homeowner, contractor, distributor and manuf. my early experience working with the tools and my failure as a contractor helped me be successful. I frequently, in training classes with contractors would say that I failed as a contractor, but I had had 20:yrs to think about it, so perhaps they should listen to me. I have great respect for those people who have been successful at the contracting business because I didn’t do it, and that still bothers me. I began to see that I was running out of patience with the “new “ managers to whom I was reporting and knew that I was perfectly capable of turning a good thing into nothing, so I told my business partner that I wanted out. Both my children were in CA and as I have girls I will say that they can run but they cannot hide. We moved west in ‘11 and until 4/18 I worked on a consulting basis with Rinnai. Today, at 70, I am newly retired and trying to come to terms with it. It is not easy. I miss the people. I miss the action. Jim, I will lay a lifetime of failure and success out there hoping that it is taken the right way. I am out of the business...regretfully, but time tells its tale.
I know it is the internet and I shouldn’t take offense, but, Jim, I am highly offended by YOU and your accusations. Someone said it was my responsibility to maintain a sense of decorum here...but your accusations are so deliciously low.

BobC

A good rep is a Godsend, I worked with several good ones in the electronics trade in the 70's and 80's. The best was Kieth Blackie out of HP in Lexington, he would do anything to help a customer and it made mo difference how large the account was.

Bob