Weil-McLain flipped us the bird

Dave0176

Unbelievably, and without even telling anyone Weil-McLain decided to stop tapping the second riser on the EG series boilers. I couldn’t even do the job because I had to return the boiler. Looks like Peerless will be getting our business now...!!!!!

KC_Jones

Will they let you order it differently? They have to be tapping that section for some of the boilers.

I am guessing due to high demand of lower quality work they made this change. But hey it's cheaper which is what most people want right? They need the money for useless granite counter tops.

ChrisJ

Any chance it was a mistake and somehow that section got shipped?

I guess they will be making a limited amount of tapped versions just for the larger boilers?

@Dave0176 Out of curiosity, have you piped an EG-45 with just a single 3" riser? I think that was the largest that allowed a single, no?

Fred

Wow, that is a big mistake, on their part. It won't take long for them to realize that. Did they also reduce the price of those units or are they saying it helped them to not have to raise the pricing? Lower product cost by these kinds of design changes rarely make up for lost sales volume or lesser market acceptance.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

Wow, that is a big mistake, on their part. It won't take long for them to realize that. Did they also reduce the price of those units or are they saying it helped them to not have to raise the pricing? Lower product cost by these kinds of design changes rarely make up for lost sales volume or lesser market acceptance.

Why?

Fred

@ChrisJ For the very reason @Dave0176 brought it to our attention and says he will move his supply brand. Perception has almost as much to do with selling a product as the product itself.

Dave0176

> @ChrisJ said:
> Any chance it was a mistake and somehow that section got shipped?
>
> I guess they will be making a limited amount of tapped versions just for the larger boilers?
>
> @Dave0176 Out of curiosity, have you piped an EG-45 with just a single 3" riser? I think that was the largest that allowed a single, no?

I kinda thought it was a mistake myself, that is until I called the supply house and they said they found that out yesterday on a Williamson. They then called the Rep and he said it’s no mistake.
This is per the manual minimum
The EG30/35 uses one 2” riser and header.
The EG40/45/50 uses one 2-1/2 riser and header
The EG55/65/75 use one 3” riser and header

Obviously the right end sections have to be tapped for the EGH series so I suppose there going to have two different part numbers now.

Dave0176

> @Fred said:
> Wow, that is a big mistake, on their part. It won't take long for them to realize that. Did they also reduce the price of those units or are they saying it helped them to not have to raise the pricing? Lower product cost by these kinds of design changes rarely make up for lost sales volume or lesser market acceptance.


No all Weil-McLains boiler products rose about 5% this year.

Fred

Dave0176 said:

> @Fred said:

> Wow, that is a big mistake, on their part. It won't take long for them to realize that. Did they also reduce the price of those units or are they saying it helped them to not have to raise the pricing? Lower product cost by these kinds of design changes rarely make up for lost sales volume or lesser market acceptance.





No all Weil-McLains boiler products rose about 5% this year.

A prime example of Corporate greed. Lesser product for more cost. Maybe this is a phase out strategy for the EG series products? Diminish demand while selling what you can to those who will still buy??

clammy

Dave I just did a eg35 bout 2 weeks ago n was surprised to also find only one 3 inch tapping I really don’t use Weil much so it had been a while n I was sadden to only see one tapping. I was doing the install for a buddies company I usually use peerless I did like the weight difference I was tossing that 35 around it felt very light in comparison peace n good luck clammy

ethicalpaul

Is it possible their engineers found that there was no benefit to dual ports for those sizes?

OR

Their research showed them that 95% of units were getting plumbed only using one port anyway (and in copper, and incorrectly laid-out) so they figured why fight it? (As KC basically said)

Dave0176

> @ethicalpaul said:
> Is it possible their engineers found that there was no benefit to dual ports for those sizes?
>
> OR
>
> Their research showed them that 95% of units were getting plumbed only using one port anyway (and in copper, and incorrectly laid-out) so they figured why fight it? (As KC basically said)

Paul, yes from its inception in 1976 the EG35-75 series only had a recommended minimum of one riser. But it was nice having those two 3” tappings there.

This more than likely was a money saving effort, they don’t have drill, tap, or purchase and install the 3” Ward plug any longer.

They’ve been doing this all along on the SGO oil series of boilers, only one 2-1/2 tapping from the SGO3-5 series then on the 6-9 it’s tapped.

Fred

In the past, their single tapping was to meet minimum requirements but allowed an installer the option to do better than "minimum". At this point, they seem to be saying minimum is good enough and the only option so they could save a few manufacturing dollars. We'll see how that flies.

STEAM DOCTOR

O wow. Not good. Williamson has been my go to steam boiler. Guess that I will also be switching to Peerless. I guess now they are truly peerless. For what it's worth, the Weil Mclain brochure still lists both supply trappings. Do they still have the return tapping on the right side?

Dave0176

> @STEAM DOCTOR said:
> O wow. Not good. Williamson has been my go to steam boiler. Guess that I will also be switching to Peerless. I guess now they are truly peerless. For what it's worth, the Weil Mclain brochure still lists both supply trappings. Do they still have the return tapping on the right side?

You know I wanted to see but I didn’t feel like taking the side jacket off the boiler off.

Phil53

Wonder how many EG's sold were steam vs water and if this had anything to do with it.

ethicalpaul

I assume your supplier was OK with taking it back?

Dave0176

> @ethicalpaul said:
> I assume your supplier was OK with taking it back?

Yep they took it back, I never took it off the crate. Just opened it.

Dave0176

> @Phil53 said:
> Wonder how many EG's sold were steam vs water and if this had anything to do with it.


I don’t really see EG boilers being used for hot water anymore, some instances, however Weil-McLain has the CGa water boiler that’s a third of the size and cost a lot less.

Dave0176

Apparently the right side return is no longer tapped either. Smh

STEAM DOCTOR

@Dave0176. I could be wrong but I don't think the right side return tapping was ever listed in the brochure or installation manual.

STEAM DOCTOR

My local supplier stocks Peerless boilers so I am okay. Of course my estimates will need to go up and I am a greater risk of being out bid. Maybe someone can convince peerless to get rid of that stupid Cyclegaurd and to use a 24v LWCO instead of 120V. One thing that I like about Peerless is that they do not plug their tappings and they have 1" tappings towards the bottom of the block. I also find their jacket to be easier to get on and off.

Dave0176

STEAM DOCTOR said:

My local supplier stocks Peerless boilers so I am okay. Of course my estimates will need to go up and I am a greater risk of being out bid. Maybe someone can convince peerless to get rid of that stupid Cyclegaurd and to use a 24v LWCO instead of 120V. One thing that I like about Peerless is that they do not plug their tappings and they have 1" tappings towards the bottom of the block. I also find their jacket to be easier to get on and off.

The cyclegaurd is the only drawback, however that'll be replaced before the first fireup...........

JohnNY

Weil-McLain's Head of Training and Technical Dept called me on this a few weeks ago and asked if I thought WM would have a problem with this change on the smaller boilers. My answer was simply "Only with the people to whom the dual-riser drop header has become a religion. But there are a lot of them out there. Watch HeatingHelp.com for blowback because you're going to get it."

He replied, "I didn't think of that. There's no reason whatsoever to use a second tapping on boilers this size but I guess I'll watch what happens online."

And that was that.

STEAM DOCTOR

Not just a matter of using two tappings. There are many times where piping right to left is much more convenient then piping left to right. Also, whenever the header is running side to side(as opposed to front to back) it is always more convenient to have a return tapping on the opposite side.

DZoro

Looks like that few cents that they saved on a second tap is going to cost them much more...…. How much really is a bushing plug, compared to lost sale of an entire boiler.....

I don't know, I'm just a heating guy.

EzzyT

Well now I know I won’t be installing any of there smaller EG boilers.

ChrisJ

> @EzzyT said:
> Well now I know I won’t be installing any of there smaller EG boilers.
>

Do you feel a single 3" will impact the performance of an EG-35?

EzzyT

That small of a boiler not really but that both the supply and return on the same side of the boiler yes

ChrisJ

EzzyT said:

That small of a boiler not really but that both the supply and return on the same side of the boiler yes

The amount of water coming back even on EG-55 is awfully small. No?

STEAM DOCTOR

@ChrisJ. Issue is not the amount of water. Issue is piping convenience. Either header needs to run front to back or you need to make U-turn to get equalizer back to left side of boiler

EzzyT

So I have to adjust my standards of operation of installs because a manufacturer wants to be cheap because some pencil pushing numbers guy figured a way to save the company I’ll pass on that.

EzzyT

You guys and gals already know from my install pictures that I post that I don’t stick with just one manufacturer, I go with the boiler size that is best suitable to the application. So if a manufacturer is gonna pull this kinda crap then I’ll just move on to the next one.

Dave0176

> @STEAM DOCTOR said:
> Not just a matter of using two tappings. There are many times where piping right to left is much more convenient then piping left to right. Also, whenever the header is running side to side(as opposed to front to back) it is always more convenient to have a return tapping on the opposite side.

That’s the thing, even people using one tapping had the option to move to the right should the job require that, and in Weil-McLains older I&O manual they always stated the return must be on the same side as the supply tapping. Now there is no choice other then the left.

Dave0176

> @JohnNY said:
> Weil-McLain's Head of Training and Technical Dept called me on this a few weeks ago and asked if I thought WM would have a problem with this change on the smaller boilers. My answer was simply "Only with the people to whom the dual-riser drop header has become a religion. But there are a lot of them out there. Watch HeatingHelp.com for blowback because you're going to get it."
>
> He replied, "I didn't think of that. There's no reason whatsoever to use a second tapping on boilers this size but I guess I'll watch what happens online."
>
> And that was that.

I do hope they read this @JohnNY

Tomorrow morning I will call our local WM rep and let him know my displeasure, and that I’ll be moving to another manufacturer. Weather he cares or not is not my problem. I have other options and my supply house carries other boiler brands.

ChrisJ

Is Peerless the one that has a heavier block and no pins above the water line?

EzzyT

Chris yes you are correct

Charlie from wmass

Steam velocity numbers before we form a lynch mob please. Excessive pipe size means extra air to purge on a cycle and more heat loss from surface area even with insulation in place. Bigger is not better, we learned that with boiler sizing. Why are we forgetting that with pipe sizing?

The Steam Whisperer

Yes, I'm definitely with Charlie on this one. Running 2- 3inch risers on a tiny boiler doesn't make sense to me. I say, put that money into the system or TRV's. A 3 inch riser will allow water to drop back down up to about 200,000 btu/hr boiler input. With dirty water there may be a little carryover, but a good header will take care of that. We run 3 inch risers up to 350,000 with a good header ( 4 inch if possible) and don't have problems on Peerless 64's. I think you're better off with the Peerless with push nipples and heavier sections anyway. It seems the plastic gasket life is only about 25 years on the LGB's, not sure how well they hold up on EGH's. On the EGH's we tend to see cracks at the top of the legs going into the water jacket and eventully bad gaskets or rot out.

STEAM DOCTOR

It's not only a matter of using the second riser. It's a matter of being limited to supply and return tappings on the left side of the boiler. Makes the piping significantly more difficult. Especially in small boiler rooms. I typically use one riser on smaller boilers but almost always Supply from one side and return on the other side.

Charlie from wmass

25 years is good to me considering the other sludge and scale build up in a steam boilers. As far it limiting piping options this is hardly an issue even in the tightest boiler room. Guys there are bigger problems in the universe of steam heating. Time to fix so heat and I choose wm because it is a good middle ground but also I have successfully installed my long disliked Utica boiler to great success. Quit nitpicking. Steam on.