Trane Concealed Steam/Vapor Heat Problem -- Leak

Fred

@JUGHNE , I guess we were on the same brainwave, I was only two minutes slower than you!

JUGHNE

As long as all of your vertical drop steam or dry return pipes connect to your new wet return piping and that piping stays below the boiler water line then the water should drain back into the Hartford Loop connection at the boiler.

Each of those pipes have to be connected separately below the water line that is formed by the single wet horizontal return pipe .....that is each of them have to have their "feet" under water. Not connected together up high in the bump outs.
That water seal keeps the steam from going back up to a dry return and causing water hammer problems.

LK

Plan is to connect each pair in each bumpout into a T at the bottom of each bumpout; then join those into 1 pipe at the hole through the garage wall; which will run through a trench in the garage floor; which will then poke through the boiler room wall; into the wet return under my boiler. I think all of that new piping should be below the water line. Do you agree? Thanks.

In the past, I have had to run at higher than recommended pressure, in order to reach my far away convectors. I am saddled with an oversized boiler from the prior owner, and determined that I was rapid cycling at low pressure. The boiler kept turning off well before the far away rooms got heat. So, through trial and error, I determined that setting the temperature differential on the thermostat to 2 degrees and setting the cutoff pressure higher -- actually tricked the boiler into staying on longer to properly heat the entire house. I know this goes against steam heating best practices, but the alternative was many cold rooms. Never during this time did water shoot out of that vent. I agree, I would have seen water coming from the floors, etc. Earlier today, I turned the cutoff pressure way down, and I still had water spewing out of the holes in the vent (the water started coming out before the pressure cutoff kicked in).

So, somewhat confused if there is another issue here. Perhaps the uninsulated steam pipes that were insulated with asbestos until yesterday is contributing to the water spewing out?

Could I tape closed the holes at the top of the vent and run the boiler to see if I can get heat without water spewing out of the vent? Can I damage the vent by doing that? I don't want to remove the vent, because it is very difficult to get in, since it is wedged into a very tight spot.

Thanks.

JUGHNE

I doubt if tape will stop it.
How far away time wise is your steam/pipefitter repair event?

IIWM, I would remove that vent and plug the opening.
You can't heat very long with the water shooting out.

When the wrench turner redoes this, he will open that union below the vent. I would add a reducing tee with the small branch opening pointing towards the white pipe then go up to relocate the vent to a place accessible in the future.
I would review where all the vents are located. These are items you want to inspect/change in the future.
They can be piped to a place where you can easily get your hands on them. They just have to be piped so the horizontal pipes have a slope to drain any water back to the main pipes.
If a good spot does not allow you to rotate a large vent, then a union can be installed to change vents without unscrewing them in place.

LK

Could be a week until the pipes get done. It took me an hour to get that vent in.

JUGHNE

Is the leaking vent in the bump out between the finished basement walls?
A method to direct water leaks into a bucket has worked for me.
Tie a long rag or towel around the leaker, have the end hanging down and then position a bucket under the tail. The cloth gets soaked, contains the spray and the water will drip down into the bucket. Even a form of gutter will direct it where you want.
Pretty red-neckey but has saved a lot of finished surfaces.

Another thought, does it freeze in your garage? I see you have hot and cold water pipes there that are insulated. If the garage was subject to prolong freezing the insulation would not keep the H&C from freezing.
For the large bump out at the garage wall, you could perhaps have pipes brought thru the wall into the garage for your air vents in that bump out. Up high, visible and easily changeable.
Again they need to drain condensate back into the lines.
Maybe the tees added to the vertical drop would work.
Usually air vents are on the horizontal, I wonder if the steam gods would frown upon vertical taps?
I believe they will work for air venting.

I recall you said to change all the vents took most of your day.
Make your future life easier, IMO.

LK

Yes, the leaking vent is at the bend of the smaller bumpout (the side further away from the garage). I taped it, and it contained most of the water. Been running the heat for an hour. At least this is getting my house warm again. The vents on the side of the room closest to the garage seem to be working fine (for now).

I will try your idea with a towel, when the tape method breaks down. Thanks.

Any thoughts on how likely the new wet return is to solve the water through the vent problem, given the pressure issues I described? Thanks.

JUGHNE

Early in this project did you replace some very small main vents with the G-2's? Did you notice any improvement in heating. Lack of heat distribution is often the fault of small main vents.
It is possible that you may need 2 G-2's at some places.
Another reason to make the vents accessible for the future.

LK

I replaced the vents with the same ones that were there (3 Gorton #2s and 1 Gorton #1), because I thought that perhaps that was the source of the water loss. Turned out not to be the case (new vents did not solve my problem). Then, this morning, I replaced the Gorton #1 (that had the water shooting through it) with a Gorton #2 (that instead has water shooting through it). I agree that perhaps I need 2 G-2s where the one is leaking, but there is literally no room there for anything more.

Fred

This is not a venting problem. It is a blockage and possibly a system pressure problem. If you actually have a Trane vapor system, the pressure should never be over 8 Ounces. Turn the Pressuretrol down to .5PSI Cut-in and a differential of no more than 1PSI. If you have a Vaporstat, which is what you should have on that system, set the Main at 8 ounces and Differential at about 4 ounces.
Turning system pressure up makes steam move slower so while you can keep the boiler running longer, it takes more time for the steam to move where you want it.
Having said that, we need to stay focused on the immediate problem. You have a return leak and probably a blockage that is preventing condensate from returning to the boiler. That has to be fixed if you want heat this winter. We can discuss why your steam distribution is poor after we have a running system.

JUGHNE

As Fred says, you need to get the leaking fixed ASAP.
What I am stressing is to have your venting modified while the piping repairs are being done. So you have more room and accessibility for vent service.

LK

Thanks. I agree. But on that side of the room, there is a closet on the other side of the wall, and no extra room in the bulkhead. Only option would be to have a vent sticking out into the finished room?

Fred

LK said:

Thanks. I agree. But on that side of the room, there is a closet on the other side of the wall, and no extra room in the bulkhead. Only option would be to have a vent sticking out into the finished room?

The vent does not have to be at the end of the Dry Return. If you have more access at some other point, along that return, that will work.

LK

Good to know. Thanks. How difficult is it to tap into an existing
ceiling level pipe somewhere in the middle to install another vent? How do you get the threading in there? Thanks.

Fred

LK said:

Good to know. Thanks. How difficult is it to tap into an existing
ceiling level pipe somewhere in the middle to install another vent? How do you get the threading in there? Thanks.

You can have the plumber do this, if you order the saddle clamp and gasket (see string and picture):
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/167449/main-vent-install-with-saddle-clamp#latest

LK

I am leaning toward version 2 for my piping, since I am pressed for space on the one wall of the finished room (diagram attached).

Question: would you pipe in one or more hose bibs to be able to flush out any of these new pipes? How critical is this? Where would you suggest those hose bibs be placed?

Also, any suggestions of how to secure the pipe to the wall in the finished room and the garage wall?

Thanks.

Fred

You're a glutton for punishment. I would not put a pipe, full of water exposed or even insulated, in an unheated garage. You are asking for an eventual freeze issue.
Put a hose bib on at the start of the new pipe in that far bump-out and one in the pipe just before you turn up to go into your Hartford Loop. While you have that pipe loose, at the Hartford Loop, also put a full port Ball Valve on the vertical pipe that goes up to create your Hartford Loop. That will allow you to isolate the boiler while you flush the wet returns.

There are a whole host of pipe clamps that you can use to fasten the pipe along the wall. Just go to the hardware store and find one you like and the size you need. If it were me, I'd probably let the pipe lay on the floor and just clamp it to the wall at each end of each wall and a clamp in the middle of the wall. If you mount the pipe off of the floor, a few more clamps will be required to support the pipe filled with water.

JUGHNE

IIRC the hot & cold water lines for the kitchen are in the garage.
Is the garage still heated? There was a ceiling rad in there, I believe.

LK

Thanks. I agree with the garage issue, but I really need that space in the room, and I already have many pipes in my garage ceiling with water in them (hot and cold water in copper pipes, dry returns, steam pipes -- so I already have that risk.

Can I use the hose bib that is already piped in right where the old pipe is coming up from the floor, and then add 1 new one at the far bumpout?

Thanks.

Fred

Those two pipes that tie into the pipe coming out of the floor, in your boiler room will have to be removed from the buried pipe and tied into your new pipe as well. Hopefully you understand that?? In essence, that buried pipe and the pipe out of the floor will be completely abandoned. The two pipes that tie into that pipe, out of the floor probably don't have a hose bib at the other end of them so putting one on them, near the boiler isn't going to serve a purpose BUT, when you disconnect them to tie them into your new wet return, you should put a full port ball valve on each of them and on the common pipe that then goes to your boiler so that all those can be closed and isolated when you need to flush the new wet return. otherwise, you could be washing crud from the new return into one of those two older pipes or into the boiler. The new hose bib should be on the horizontal new pipe, at each end as I stated above.

LK

Yes, got the point about the old pipe being disconnected and the new wet return connected. I assumed, though, that the pipe that is there (right behind my boiler) would remain, and after the old wet return that comes from underground is cut off, a new T would be put on the existing pipe to connect to the new one coming through the garage wall. Does that sound right? Why would the rest of the wet return that is behind my boiler have to be abandoned?

Thanks.

Fred

LK said:

Yes, got the point about the old pipe being disconnected and the new wet return connected. I assumed, though, that the pipe that is there (right behind my boiler) would remain, and after the old wet return that comes from underground is cut off, a new T would be put on the existing pipe to connect to the new one coming through the garage wall. Does that sound right? Why would the rest of the wet return that is behind my boiler have to be abandoned?

Thanks.

That is correct. No piping behind your boiler and above ground needs to be abandoned. I was just suggesting that you have full port ball valves put on them so that you can close them and isolate the new piping whenever you want to flush it out. That will keep crud from being flushed out of the new pipe and into the older returns instead of being flushed out through the hose bibs.

LK

Question: I am planning to have the piping from the small bumpout on the far side of the finished room run along the garage wall, and then meet up with the piping from the larger bumpout that will poke through the garage wall right behind where it is now. Should I go straight down at that point right into the trench (so, use a T on its side there), or am I better going down the wall a little (with the T facing upside down), and then have the pipe turn 90 degrees into the trench?

Thanks.

LK

Still working to get someone to do this work. Someone came today to look at it and insisted that it is much easier to do this repiping with copper piping instead of black pipe (and a local heating person I spoke to on the phone said the same thing). I have other copper pipes in my garage that have water in them and have been fine, even during winter power outages. He said the copper pipes are not more likely to burst than the black pipe. Everyone here has said to replace with black pipe. Thoughts?

Fred

You are paying the bill. Easy isn't one of the conditions of a long lasting fix. From a system perspective, copper, below the water line if fine for steam. From a freeze perspective, I'll take black pipe over copper every time but you are the home owner and have to decide how much risk you are willing to take. Keep in mind that pipes split/break during the thaw process when the water expands and has no where to go. In this case, your pipe will be open on both ends (boiler on one end and vertical return on the other). The issue is, if the thaw starts somewhere along that line, in the middle, between still frozen water on each side of the thaw, you have a problem.

KC_Jones

Not everyone said to use black pipe. @Steamhead what do you think about wet returns?

KC_Jones

If you are getting estimates, let us know where you are we might know someone really good in your area. Plenty of good steam men on this site, get one of them on site they will probably figure it out.

Steamhead

KC_Jones said:

Not everyone said to use black pipe. @Steamhead what do you think about wet returns?

As long as water fills them, I don't have a problem with copper. In fact, it is the best bet for underground returns.

JUGHNE

LK, we haven't heard from you lately...anything new to report?

LK

So, finally got someone to fix this yesterday and my problem is 99% solved. Big thank you to @JUGHNE @KC_Jones @Fred and everyone else for your brilliant insights. Your steam smarts helped me diagnose this from a distance. Very kind of you all to spend the time. I am very grateful.

Unfortunately, one small issue remains. In the far bumpout, we tapped into the 1" vertical return line at some type of large nut. In retrospect, we probably should have tapped into it at the 90 degree elbow, which is only 8 inches above the nut, but that would have been more difficult to access. So, after the person who did the repair left, I noticed a very small leak from the upper part of the large nut, which is the part that was left in place, but must have been disturbed by the sawing and banging to get the pipe out from the lower part of the nut.

I know that what I should do is cut out the old pipe all the way up to the 90 degree elbow, and restart from there (splicing in the extra 8 inches of new pipe) -- but I know it is going to be tough to get this person back to do this tiny extra work. So, do you think there is a way to tighten that nut at the top part, or seal up the tiny leak somehow? The water that comes out from where it is leaking is miniscule, and it mostly evaporates from the heat of the pipe, but I still need to fix it. I'm not sure how that big nut works. It looks like if I turn it to tighten the upper side, I will be loosening the lower side. Thanks.

Pictures attached. First picture looking up. Next three pictures closeups of the large nut with the water dripping down. Last picture looking down.

neilc

I think you just found your last vent location.
the last picture, looking up, past the new copper,
you can see staining on the wall, and that 90 looks like your other, with a plug in its top.
Bet money a vent should be there.

the leak ,looks like the union shifted or even loosened when the copper was tightened in, one more time with the wrenches in there.

JUGHNE

Welcome back LK! Glad to hear you got something done.

You always need 2 wrenches on a union for that very reason of only moving the big nut.
Actually a 3rd hand with a hammer rapping on the big nut as you tighten may help.
If no extra hand then hammering on opposite sides of the nut first and between nudges might give you some movement.

A new union would have been good and still might be the fix.

We might hit the 200 postings yet!

LK

Thanks. How does the union work? Do the pipes thread in the same direction? If so, then if I try to move the union, I will be tightening one side and loosening the other. Should I put the wrench on the upper pipe and try to turn that? If I do that, I will potentially loosen that piece of pipe out of the 90 degree elbow it connects into on the other side when I tighten the part that goes into the union.

JUGHNE

You should only move the big nut.
Looking from the top down, the big nut should tighten clockwise.
If you are lying on the floor looking up it would be CCW.

The lower part with the copper screwed into it should be held stationary.
Sometimes the top part with the old iron pipe in will want to turn with the big nut.....you don't want that.
Soaking the big nut with PB Blaster may help.
The penetrating oil has to flow up into the big nut threads, and down from the top where the nut has friction on the top part,
cleaning the gap on the top and bottom with a sharp pick will help the upward flow of the capillary action of the PB spray.
The hammer helps also.

If you are unsure, as you get your spray at the store, go look at a threaded union of any size and take it apart for study.

Cheater extension pipes to extend the length of pipe wrench handle help also.

LK

Thanks. But if I hold the pipe above the nut and the pipe below the nut, and then turn the big nut to the left (when looking straight at it) -- then won't I be, at the same time, tightening the bottom part of the top pipe and loosening the top part of the bottom pipe?

Fred

There are 3 pieces to that union. Put a pipe wrench on the big center nut and a pipe wrench on the upper or lower nut that would loosen so that you can keep it from turning and tighten the big nut. The other smaller nut that might tighten a little (if at all) won't leak being a little tighter. looking at your pictures, it looks like the plumber really wrenched down on that copper fitting and probably didn't hold onto the bottom section of that union and probably loosened up that large nut. Of course, you do have the option of calling him back to fix the problem.

JUGHNE

If you go look at a new union, it consists of 3 parts.
2 of the parts screw onto the 2 stationary pipes you want to join.
The third part is the large nut, (always remember to put the large nut on the correct part of one of the two parts...I know this ).
The reasoning for using the union is that your two pipes are stationary and you do not want to rotate them.
The only part that should rotate is the large nut that screws unto the matched threaded part of the union.
So as you tighten the nut it is opposing the lower matched threaded part. That should be kept stationary....thus the reason for the second pipe wrench.
The upper part should not turn as it will loosen the piping.
This can happen if the large nut has enough friction to rotate the stationary part....thus the reason for the penetrating oil.

JUGHNE

Fred, I type too much.

LK: your wrenches should only be applied to the union parts...no wrenches on the pipes.

Fred

@JUGHNE , me too

LK

OK. Will try this. Is it possible that something cracked in there, or unlikely? Thanks.