Trane Concealed Steam/Vapor Heat Problem -- Leak

JUGHNE

Big box stores sell a Rigid borescope view camera for $99.00.
It has a 3-4' long flex with camera on the end. Good little color screen you can look at.
Great tool, I use mine more than I ever guessed I would.
(just seeing what fell behind the dresser for instance)

You could drill a 1" hole at the height of your wall plug ins.
Peek inside with the camera, if you don't find what you are looking for, just install a blank plastic electrical plate over the 1" hole. It will look like it belongs there.

You could look in the big bump out and also in the small bump out. 99 dollars won't cover a lot of sheetrock repair if you are looking in the wrong place.

Before I had the camera, I would cut a hole that could be easily covered by a flat return air grill, maybe 14 x 6", If placed high or low it looked like it belonged there. Most people would not question it, no patching, sanding and painting.

LK

@KC_Jones the pipes you labeled in Red both go down the wall, where it bumps out a little. The same is true on the other side of the room. Both pipes go straight down the wall. I thought one of the two on each side was a steam and one on each side was a return (but I am not sure). So, what is confusing, is why would the Steam pipe go down the wall? Where does it end? I assume if the steam pipe was coming back under my basement floor, I would surely feel a ton of heat in that path. That cannot be the case.

I just turned on my heat, and the walls feel warm below where those pipes are (coming down from right under the trap doors). But, because there is tile on the floor, I cannot feel any warm spots on the floor of that room. And, I went throughout the garage and the boiler room, and I cannot feel any warm spots on the floor -- even along all the logical paths of the underground wet return.

@JUGHNE there are 3 ceiling trapdoors in the room next to the garage. One on each of the sides of the room (near each bumpout), and one in the middle.

One question: Will it work to keep the returns at the ceiling all the way back to the boiler room, and then drop down to the above ground wet return (the very short one right behind my boiler, up against the wall)? Is there a requirement that the return be higher or lower than the steam pipe? Thanks.

@Fred the entire basement is finished, with the exception of the garage and the boiler room. Can you please tell me how I would create a new return at the ceiling level? How would it connect to the rest of the system? Is it possible for me to use the abandoned return? And, what do you think is happening to the steam pipes that are in my walls (if those are, in fact, steam pipes)? There are two pipes in each bumpout. Is it possible that both are returns? And, then is it possible there are two returns going down the wall on the other side of that room as well? They look like thick pipes, so I am not sure how they could even be redirected into a different above ground pipe? Thanks.

JUGHNE

You have a 2 pipe system, the steam main goes to the radiator valves, the other end of the radiator drains into a return line.
These are your 2 pipes.

I am thinking that each bump out has the end of the steam main "drip" which would drain the condensate formed in the steam main. It also has the dry return which the condensate water returns to the boiler thru.

You have 2 bump outs and 2 sets of end of main drip and dry return. Probably when the addition was put on they extended the steam in that direction and did the steam main drip and an added dry return in the other bump out.

An end of main steam drip has to drop down into a wet return so that steam will not get into the return lines.
Another option (to avoid) is to have a float and thermostat trap at the end of the steam main. It stops the steam there and will drain condensate into the dry return. Then you would have only one return from each bump out. This would require the new overhead return to hang a few inches lower.

You just have to call someone experienced in 2 pipe steam to look and give you options.
It might be possible to run a return around the finished room on the floor near the wall.

The use of the FLIR camera would let someone find the actual pipe failure. Maybe it is under the floor in the boiler room or garage. Or maybe one spot under the finished floor near the boiler room wall. Until then we are all just guessing.
The warm walls are not a for sure indicator. Hot water under the floor would seep up to the holes left by the pipe.
The end of steam main has to drop a ways below the boiler level before it tees into the dry return pipe.

LK

@Fred I did not exactly follow what you were suggesting. Could you show in red on the diagram how you think I should modify this. I attach below the most recent diagram. Perhaps you could put Cs where a new return could be at the ceiling, and Fs where the new return would need to be just above the floor, and Bs where the new return would have to be buried in the cement floor.

Some questions:

1). Any possibility that the easiest solution is to chip a trench into my garage floor along the dotted diagonal I drew and then install a new pipe there and connect it on the one side under the cindeblock wall of my boiler room (into the short wet return), and on the other side under the cindeblock wall next to the finished basement (meeting up with the pipes at the bottom of the bumpout )?

2). Any possibility that I could use the 2 abandoned returns that are in the ceiling of the room on the other side of the Garage wall? I found a second one last night (picture attached below) a little to the left of the other pipes. Only issue is that those pipes are above the steam pipes, so not sure how the Water from the "steam main drips" would get into those returns (I'm not sure how that water originally got returned to the boiler, unless there was always an underground return).

3). Is it possible the leak is under the floor of the finished room to the right of the garage? Or, is it much more likely under the garage floor? I ask because I am wondering if the solution should involve keeping in place the underground portion that is beneath that finished basement floor?

4). Do you think there is an underground return in the addition to the house from 1950? I think it is unlikely, since there is a step up coming back from that part of the house into the older part of the house (only in the basement), and I did not feel any warmth in any of the walls in that part of the basement -- but not sure if that could be part of the problem.

5). Do you think that within the two bumpouts in the finished room that the steam main drip and dry return come into one pipe that then leads into the wet return?

Thanks.

JUGHNE

IIWM, the first thing I would do is break up the concrete around the floor pipe in the boiler room. Find out what direction it goes.
If there seems to be "new" concrete for a trench I would follow that across the boiler room or garage.
In these areas, this is an easy later DIY floor repair considering your situation.

Have you looked into the center ceiling trapdoor, can you see any piping there?

LK

Yes, planning to break up the concrete tonight.

There is no new concrete trench anywhere.

Yes, looked inside the middle trap door. I posted some pics the other day. Looking toward the wall shared with the garage, you can see the steam pipe that ends at the Wall and turns to go down the wall (into the bumpout area), and you can see the dry return that does the same. Right above both of those is the abandoned return that goes through the cindeblock wall and is capped on the garage side of the wall. To the right of that (still looking in the same direction) about 13 inches away is a steam pipe that came through the shared wall with the garage and travels 11 Feet across the room and then turns to go down the wall into the narrow bumpout area on the other side of the room. Similarly, there is a different dry return next to that steam pipe that came through the shared wall with the garage and travels 11 feet across the room and then turns down the wall into the same bumpout. And, there is a 2nd abandoned dry return above both of those pipes that goes the 11 feet of the room and goes through the wall into the garage. That one was cut and not capped on the garage side of the wall. At each place where all four of the pipes turn to go into the bumpout, there is a Gorton Vent (the ones I just replaced). The pipes travel down The wall about 13" away from each other, so it is not a straigh line across the room from one to the other.

Fred

@LK , are you saying that a steam pipe (return) drops down at both of those bump-outs? Do either of them come out above the floor? If not, there is a possibility that the buried return is longer that we originally assumed. Is the addition heated with steam? If you don't see an exposed return wherever a steam pipe drops down, the return is likely buried. I am certain there is only one pipe that is buried, because there is only one pipe that comes up out of the floor. The question now becomes how many mains drop down and tie into that buried pipe? At some, like it or not, you are going to have to cut into the lower part of those bump-outs and see where/if a pipe drops below the floor.

If there is more than one pipe that drops below the floor, there has to be a pipe under the floor, which means there could be a leak at any point along that buried pipe. Replacing just a section of it is a waste of time and money as the rest of the pipe will likely soon fail as well. It's all the same age and all exposed to the same conditions.

My point about how to route the new piping was/is, once you determine what is connected to that buried return, you can abandon it and run new pipe above the floor, as long as you stay below the boiler water line with the new pipe. It does not have to go through the foundation but can run above it, and through a plaster or drywall wall, so long as it stays below the boiler water line. Then you can either leave it exposed (if in a utility area) or hide it, in the finished spaces, in any way you like, box it in and drywall over it, build a full or half wall, extending the bump-outs that are already there (making them wider, from side to side, but still looking like a normal bump-out.


Chipping out concrete, all the way around that one pipe that comes out of the floor is the first step. Go down as far as you need to to see if the buried pipe is tied to that pipe only from one side or if there are two or more pipes tied into it. At that point, you will know if you leak is potentially from one branch or if there is a potential for it to be at other branches feeding into that pipe that comes out of the floor. Until we determine that, we are wasting time trying to design a route for a replacement.

As for those abandoned dry returns, above the garage ceiling, if they are above the main, they likely were not dry returns but may have been radiator run-outs that were abandoned when the remodel was done, either radiators removed, radiators relocated or new run-outs installed, for some reason. It is even possible there were more than one ceiling radiator in your garage. They are not usable as returns if they are higher than the main itself, so that is not an option. I am sure there was a dry return up there originally, given the remnants left behind (pipe hangers, one plug through the masonry wall, etc) but it may have been completely removed.

You can bury a new return in your garage floor although I would prefer that be minimal. Garage floors crack and settle, which could stress and break a buried pipe, those wet returns are always filled with water and while that water will be warm and not likely to freeze, there is always the possibility that an expended power outage or gas line failure could make them subject to freeze and burst.

JUGHNE

Fred, I am thinking there is a main drip drop and dry return drop at each bump. So 4 pipes.
They could tee together at the bottom of each bump, but above the floor and then one wet return per bump.
The tee would have to be of course below the water line.

Then maybe only 1 buried tee some where.

The easy way to see would be the faux return air opening on the bump wall a few inches above the floor.

Fred

Jughne, That's what I was trying to say too. I believe there is only one buried pipe but given he sees a main drop at each bump-out and if I understand his pictures, the bump-outs are at opposite ends of the room, the leak could be anywhere along either buried branch. I too believe (hope) those pipes are Tee'd together above the floor.

JUGHNE

It is possible that the small bump wet return (newer) is just buried over to the next bump (garage side) and was tied in to original wet return just above the floor in the big bump out.
Perhaps original wet return angles across garage floor.

It would be an early Christmas if the leak was only under the garage floor and the "newer" return from small bump to big bump is still good.

LK

@Fred There is a steam pipe that drops down into each bumpout -- @JUGHNE called it a Steam Main Drip Drop. Neither of the steam pipes in the bumpout come out above the floor. I don't see them coming out anywhere. I won't see where they go until I open that bumpout. Why does that indicate the buried return being longer?

Are you saying replace the underground pipe in the finished basement room, and replace the pipe buried in the garage/boiler room, and maybe replace the pipe buried in the 1950 addition? Is it possible the 1950 addition only has dry returns in the ceiling, or would the definitely be underground returns running under the length of the basement floor? If there any way to know if the underground pipe from the small bumpout to the larger bumpout (in the finished basement room) is still good?

Issue I will have is there is no physical way to get from the finished basement room with the two bumpouts into the garage and over to the boiler room -- if that pipe has to stay below the water level -- without burying part of that pipe (since there are several doorways to navigate).

How would you suggest getting from the finished room in the basement to the other side of the garage and into the boiler room?

And how would I get from the 1950 addition to the other side of the basement and then across the rest of the finished basement and then into the boiler room and around the water heater (again, if the pipe needs to stay below the water level). It seems the only way to do this would be to bury another pipe, which would require ripping up a tile basement floor.

At that point, it has to be more advisable and cheaper/easier to scrap the steam system and install a new boiler with hot water coils added to my AC air handlers.

Fred

A few more questions for you: You have a Hot Water loop on your boiler, using copper pipe.
- Are any of those pipes buried under the floor? Especially in the raised area under the 1950's addition? If they do, and you can turn that loop off and run the boiler, if we are really, really lucky, the leak is in that hot water loop and not in the wet return.
- Do you really think it would be less costly to replace the steam heat, with what I think would require two furnaces than it would cost to replace the basement tiles?
- Understand that while crossing doors is more of a challenge, it is certainly doable. If we can find all the drops that go below the floor, we can then try to lay out a route that can be maybe 90% above the floor and only need to cut into the concrete and drop that return below the floor to below those doorways. Remember, wet returns can go up and down anywhere along their route as long as the highest point stays below the boiler's normal water line.
-

KC_Jones

I am getting lost with the whole thing at this point. All the steam pipes return. All those drops you posted pictures of return to the boiler, so are there any other pipes returning to the bottom of the boiler other than the one you show coming through the floor?

If the answer to that is no then all those pipes are joined together into a common wet return "somewhere".
It seems like the leak is under the floor, honestly who really cares where? The pipe is done it should just be abandoned in place and have new pipes run above the floor, most likely in the wall. I'd just abandon all the returns and do them over. The exercise of breaking up concrete and finding pipes will satisfy curiosity, but won't fix anything. That is unless you are thinking of burying the pipes again, for me that seems foolish. Even if you find 1 leak, the rest of them will most likely be close behind and this could turn into a never ending cycle.

You know where the boiler is, you found your return drops. You have both ends that need connected. Unless there is some really obvious detail I am missing this seems pretty cut and dry.

As far as feeling heat, every system is different. My wet returns are very short and only exist right at the boiler and most of the time the bare pipe is slightly above ambient if that warm. If it was buried in concrete I wouldn't notice anything. Maybe if you had a good thermal camera that could pick it up, but assuming the floor should be warm isn't a good criteria in my eyes.

The work will require some "destruction" to get done, this is why I suggest not going underground and not worrying about what is down there. The floor, especially tiled floor, will be terrible to fix, but drywall is relatively easy.

Fred

@KC_Jones , essentially this is all about the OP trying to avoid doing any damage to tiled floors in the finished areas of the basement. Initially he had the one pipe come out of the floor but could not find the other end to determine which main it came from. In that process, he has found multiple pipes that drop to below the floor which I am sure all tie into a single buried pipe but we need to determine how best to route any new piping to pick up those drops and, as best as possible stay above the floor or, when crossing doorways, drop below the floor only at those doors.
Also, it is still possible that his hot water loop, which heats the basement and may or may not heat a 1950's addition (with a basement under it that is raised from the original basement floor by 9 to 12 inches may have some buried copper which, if it does, could, in fact, be the source of the leak.

JUGHNE

Early in this discussion I asked him to shut off the 3 ball valves that are in that hot water loop. Assuming they are still off and not part of the equation then that would eliminate that as the cause.

The pipes inside the big bump out could go into the garage thru the block wall. Yes could run on top of the floor into the boiler room but would be a toe tripper at that door (probably used every day) if the garage floor and finished basement level are the same level. You could put a ramp type threshold there, but not ideal. Could bury it with the box/grate. Or bury sch 80 pipe.

The challenge I see is the smaller bump out drops.
That could go out the bottom of the wall into the 1950 step down basement, drop down immediately, run on the floor towards the outside wall, [you build a small landing for your step down floor] jump up and go back thru the wall continue on the floor towards the AC. Then thru that wall into the boiler room on the floor then head to the boiler.
in the boiler room it could join the return from the big bump out.
Could be on top of the floor, minor obstacle to step over.

When I say "on top of the floor" I mean on the floor where the wall meets it.....where your baseboard trim board is.

Now with this thought, I would hold off on the concrete breaking and instead I would cut the sheet rock open near the bottom of each bump out. 14x6 or smaller, just above your base board wood trim.

For future reference, on your drawing which way is north?

LK

@Fred none of the copper pipes for the hot water loop are burried. They go on the perimeter of the boiler room, through a hole on the wall and behind a bathroom wall to the Air Handler for the basement zone. I have already closed that loop off (at the suggestion of @JUGHNE) and, unfortunately, the leak persisted. The 1950s addition starts past the spot of the basement air handler.

I think I would only need one boiler since the house is not that big. The first floor air handler is a few feet away from the boiler. The only issue would be getting the hot water up to the attic, where the 2nd floor air handler is. I have no idea how costly that would be. But the alternative is increasingly sounding like it is not just replacing some tiles to fix this. It sounds like it will be compromising the living space in the finished basement, and then still not having a good solution for how to get the return around the doorways, of which there are a minimum of two to cross to get the water out of the finished part of the basement back to the boiler.

The other issue is the 1950s addition has no trap doors anywhere. So far, I don't know anything about that.

LK

@KC_Jones I do not think there are any other pipes returning to the bottom of the boiler except the one that is underground.

@KC_Jones If I run a new wet return around the perimeter of the finished basement room and connected the two return drops, how would you suggest I then get from that spot back to my boiler. The seems difficult to determine, since my garage is in between the room with the return drops and the boiler room (and there are 2 doors to contend with). Going the other direction (the very long way) also has a door in the way).

LK

@JUGHNE in between the small bumpout and the rest of the basement (the 1950s addition) is another cindeblock wall, side that wall was the outside of the house until 1950. So, won't be so easy to go from the small bumpout into the 1950s basement, but sounds like it could be done.

JUGHNE

Most of the time I can get thru the hollow of a cinder block with 2 good hammer wracks on each side. If by chance it is full of concrete then the hammer drill has to be used. No big deal.
You would go thru the cinder block into the 1950 bsmt and also thru cinder block into the garage.

Only if we know what is inside the bump outs at the floor level would we know if the above floor pipe will work.

KC Jones did make me think differently about this repair.
But we need to see inside the wall.
The scenario I proposed would work if both pipes drop inside the bump outs and then go into a pipe under the floor.

If all this is the case, then you would not have to disturb a single floor tile.
You would lose very little floor space and living space.
Imagine a 2" x 4" box around the wall at the floor level to enclose the pipe.

Also imagine getting hot water pipes to the attic...does it freeze up there? Forced air is not comfortable if you are used to any type of radiant/convector heat. IMO

KC_Jones

https://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/p/669/wet-return-pipe-technique

There are many ways to skin a cat. See the link for a technique that could get you past the door to the boiler room. This allows for the pipe to stay out of the way and not be buried.

As long as a pipe is always full of water or always not full of water the level is fine. It's when you try and slope through the boilers water level you have problems.

In the attached the blue line would be wet return, the black line is dry and the red line would be like what I attached in the link.

These types of things are difficult over the internet, on site I'd be willing to bet this would present itself easily. The most difficult part is not understanding the levels of things and what degree of finished the basement is.

For me if it's just drywall opening walls is no big deal and repair cost is minimal. Yes it looks like a lot of piping, but it will be better than replacing the tile floor, or should I say matching the tile that's been there if you can even get it anymore.

Keep in mind any contractor that is worth having in your house can go through a block wall with no trouble, well IMHO they should be able to. I've done it many times and it's no big deal when done properly.

Also a point of clarification, that I get the impression you are missing (I could be wrong, happens a lot). All those drops join up to the pipe that goes to the boiler, we know this. So any of them could be leaking under the slab and you have no idea which way any of them go, so I ask you how much exploration and destruction is it worth to find them versus just doing new piping? For me none, because my luck is the very last one I dig up is leaking. Also after all that digging and excavation you are then left with burying pipes again, or just running them above ground which could have been done without digging.

I have no idea if this solution will work, but perhaps it will at least get the wheels turning towards a solution.

JUGHNE

KC, that is good. How ever, if you go under the "step down" into the RH (1950) finished basement (build an extended landing) and then towards the bottom of the page and toward the AC and into the boiler room. You would have less pipe and fittings and cover up boxing.

The only doorway trench would be in the garage and at the boiler room door. (that was the box/grate I referred to above).

Yes, sheetrock is one of the easiest cut out and repairs, if you can stay back a few inches from the outside corners.

KC_Jones

JUGHNE said:

KC, that is good. How ever, if you go under the "step down" into the RH (1950) finished basement (build an extended landing) and then towards the bottom of the page and toward the AC and into the boiler room. You would have less pipe and fittings and cover up boxing.

The only doorway trench would be in the garage and at the boiler room door. (that was the box/grate I referred to above).

Yes, sheetrock is one of the easiest cut out and repairs, if you can stay back a few inches from the outside corners.

Like I said, get the wheels turning. That would definitely save pipe if it's possible.

LK

This is very helpful. Unfortunately, my original sketch didn't include all the details. There is another door in the 1950s addition, as well as closets, built-ins, a fireplace, and in the rest of the finished basement is a bathroom, stairs, washer/dryer. And, it is very tight, unlike the diagram that looks wide open. I am adding some detail and attaching the updated diagram. Definitely not drawn to scale and the area on the North side with the bathroom and laundry room is off a little in placement.

At this point, I think the best option would be to run a pipe on the floor of the room to the right of the garage from the small bumpout around the South perimeter of the room to the larger bumpout, then poke through the cindeblock wall of the garage at that spot, then go underground along my dotted line, then poke through the cindeblock wall at that spot into the boiler room to join the short wet return there.

While the underground portion is not perfect, I think it is the only viable option. My garage never gets below 40 degrees in the winter. Only question is how difficult will it be to:. 1) hook a pipe into whatever is at the bottom of each of those bumpouts, and 2) how difficult will it be to bore two large holes through those two spots in the cindeblock?

Thanks.

KC_Jones

How tall are the ceilings in the basement?

LK

In the room with the 2 bumpouts, the ceiling is 7' 9" high (and 6' 7" high to the bottom of the boxed in area where the pipes run across the room).

LK

Would the attached work? Green line indicates path of new return. "F" is at Floor; "B" is Buried.

LK

Adding attachment from earlier question. Would the attached work? Green line indicates path of new return. "F" is at Floor; "B" is Buried.

And, what should my next step be? Should I cut away a portion of the drywall at the bottom of each bumpout to see directly what is there, or should I use the Rigid Borescope View Camera that was suggested to possible cut a smaller hole and then look up and down inside the bumpouts with the camera.

JUGHNE

Is there a ceiling soffit between the 2 bump outs?

LK

Yes, there is a ceiling soffit between the 2 bump outs. Doesn't match up exactly, but the ceiling is lower going across -- to accommodate the enclosure of the pipes that are going across the ceiling there.

To see if the pipes come together at the bottom of the bumpouts, do you think I am better off with the small hole and the camera, or cutting a bigger hole to see directly?

Thanks.

KC_Jones

Do you know the direction all the pipes come from?

Since there is already a bulkhead, why not take some measurements and see if you can extend one dry return to the location of the other then drop everything down in the same location. You need 1" per 20' for the slope in that application, which isn't too much.

That idea depends on which way pipes are running, which I can't quite figure from the pics and description.

I would still suggest the trough idea from Gerry Gill's website for the garage area, for me it's piece of mind being able to see everything is good with those pipes. I probably would run in front of both doors with that as well so it's as out of the way as possible, just my opinion.

As far as cutting, you know you will be doing some pipe work which will require opening walls, so approach it from that perspective. If you just do the camera and then have to do the piping you have to open the wall up anyway, of course this could be an excuse to buy a cool new tool.

LK

@KC_Jones , yes in the bulkhead I can see where the pipes come from. There are two sets (each set has one steam and one return). One set is traveling toward the garage, I think from the 1950s addition, and then bends into the bigger bumpout right next to the garage. The other set is traveling from the far side of the garage, through the cinderblock wall, across the finished room, and then bends into the smaller bumpout in the wall on the far side of that same room.

Your idea is intriguing, but might be hard to do, but please tell me. The two return pipes are 15-17" apart. The issue I will have is that one of the steam pipes is in between the two returns in that area -- so might make it hard to connect and have a 1" decline/slope. I assume you mean to connect those two at the end of the run on the far side of the finished room, before the one return bends down that far wall. I assume the other thing I would have to figure out is -- I would have to do the same with the steam drip that goes down that far wall bumpout. How would I connect that to the same return connection, without getting steam into the return?

Thanks for your thoughts.

KC_Jones

You have done a great job with the drawings, could you add the piping to the drawing? Also indicate where the last radiator take off is on those pipes, if possible?

Determining the direction of steam travel in the pipes will help determine how you could extend and if you could do more dry return piping.

I can't remember is this a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system?

I attached 2 pictures highlighting what I can find as returns on your system. To reiterate, if it goes straight down it is a return or a drip. I think you have both. The garage picture it appears that pipe continues through the wall and drops straight down. The pipe that goes through the wall in steam line, the pipe that drops down in a drip that would tie into the wet return.

The other pictures shows the only other returns I can find in your pictures. There may be others, but some of your pictures aren't clear so I'm not sure. Red lines are steam blue are returns.

LK

I added the piping to the diagram. There is other piping in the ceiling of the garage (not shown on the diagram). The last radiator takeoff is close to the end of the finished basement room, right before the two pipes bend into the small bumpout. I put arrows showing the direction of the steam travel.

This is a 2 pipe system.

In the first picture, the two pipes coming down are hot and cold water for a hose bib. To the left of that is a Steam Pipe that travels through the cinderblock wall and along the ceiling of the finished room to the left in the bulkhead (the south steam in my diagram).

In the second picture, I thought the pipe on the left side is the steam (it is wrapped) and the pipe in the right is the return. Are they both steam? Is it possible all 4 of those pipes in the bulkhead are steam pipes -- I thought it was 2 steam and 2 returns (but could be wrong).

LK

Adding updated diagram with piping.

KC_Jones

LK said:

In the second picture, I thought the pipe on the left side is the steam (it is wrapped) and the pipe in the right is the return. Are they both steam? Is it possible all 4 of those pipes in the bulkhead are steam pipes -- I thought it was 2 steam and 2 returns (but could be wrong).

Need to map it out, when it has a drop like that I would guess a return, but it could be a drip.

For me it's the vents and the drop, that indicates to me end of return piping and into wet return. No matter what those drops all go into the wet return that much I am positive about. And those really are the pipes in question here that need to be looked at.

Seeing what is going on, as long as the system seems to be heating evenly and quietly, the safe bet is isolate the work to wet returns and just make those repairs, forget about my idea of extending dry returns.

Another clue as to what is going on is to look at slope. All pipes steam feeds should be highest at the boiler and slope away from the boiler. At the end of main they switch to dry returns and start sloping towards the boiler. The (what appears to be) drip in the garage could be a slope transition done to finish the basement and preserve some ceiling height, or it's just unique, I'm not dead so can't ask the person that did it.

JUGHNE

I got your PM, thanks for the offer but I am in central Nebraska.

The steam main from the boiler, where does it head? South, west or both?

Could you add locations of all first floor radiators with your arrows as for the kitchen.

For upstairs (2nd floor) put double arrows.

LK

I opened up the two bumpouts last night. There are two pipes in each. They do not connect to each other. It looks like they all go underground. One on each side is wrapped in asbestos and one on each side has nothing in it. One pipe looks thinner than the other, but not sure because of the asbestos. These pipes are the continuation of the 4 pipes I identified in the bulkhead (just wasn't sure if they were connected in a T or some other fashion. They are not.

Attaching pictures. First two from larger bumpout. Next three from small bumpout on other side of room. Then also attaching updated diagram with location of all radiators. Single arrow is first floor, double arrow is second floor.

LK

Reattaching pictures.

LK

@JUGHNE @KC_Jones @Fred Thank you for all your help on this. I opened the walls at the bumpouts, and there are two pipes going all the way down the wall on each side. At this point, my plan is:

1) Have someone cut each of the two pipes on each side and join them into 1 pipe.

2) Run that single pipe from the far side of the room, along the perimeter of the room, to meet up with that single pipe on the other side of the room (the side nearest the garage).

3) Run the single joined pipe through the cinderblock wall of the garage, across a trench in the garage floor, and then through the cinderblock wall of the boiler room -- to attach back to the wet return behind my boiler.

Questions, if you could please answer each:

A) What type of material pipe should I use?

What thickness/size/diameter of pipe should I use?

C) How difficult is it to cut the four pipes coming down the bumpouts and connect to one new single pipe at the bottom of each bumpout -- since some types of pipes cannot be sweat together, and the old pipes won't be threaded where they are cut?

D) Should I use a different type of pipe for the underground portion (in my garage floor) or for the portion that is going through the cinderblock? If it is too difficult to use the enclosure that @KC_Jones suggested, is there something else that I can put around the pipe to avoid contact with the cement floor.

E) How far above the floor should the new pipe be in the finished basement, and how far away from the wall should the pipe be?

F) How is the new pipe held in place? Is it screwed into the wall/molding? Screwing it into the tile floor will be difficult.

G) Should we suck the water out of the abandoned return? Should we cap off the abandoned return?

Thanks!

Fred

@LK , The reason I asked you to dig around that pipe that comes out of the floor was to at least verify that the only connection to it comes from the direction of those pipes you found and that there aren't other hidden returns in another part of the house. that you also may not know about.
Having said that, I will attempt to answer your questions.

1. I would use black iron if it were me. Copper can be used below the water line but, over time, the different metals can be a bit of a problem. I would use schedule 40 black pipe for any above ground piping and schedule 80 black pipe for any areas that will be below ground. It is much thicker and longer lasting.
2. If it were me and you are tying at least three returns into it, I'd use 1.25" minimum or 1.5" if possible. The larger the pipe diameter, the less chance for it to clog, if not flushed annually.
3. I would try to have a valve or capped pipe at each end of the horizontal piping to allow you to flush it out periodically.
4. Those vertical pipes, in each bump-out will likely have to be cut out at the bottom and turned out at the top. If the pipe is in good shape, a plumber can then rethread the cut end to the right length and reuse it or he can replace it with a piece that is the correct length. That will likely mean opening up the face of those bump-outs, from top to bottom to allow room, to work. Drywall is cheap and easily repaired.
5. The new horizontal pipe can lay on the floor or it can be any height you want as long as it stays below the boiler water line. It can be mounted to any studs, in the walls or using anchors, into the masonry wall. Use pipe brackets. If you want to make it more esthetically pleasing and maybe even be somewhat functional, You can probably buy some radiant baseboard covers and enclose the pipe that goes around the finished portion of the basement. Left uninsulated, it will throw off a little heat. If you already have baseboards for the hot water loop, and there is room, you may be able to hide this pipe in that enclosure.
6. You won't need to drain that underground pipe. It has a leak in it and will empty itself but it would be a good idea to cap it off at both ends.

Hope this helps.