Main vent install with saddle clamp??!

ewalls29

Hello my steamers,

I'm finally ready to install the main vents on my 1-pipe steam system. Last winter really sucked having un-even heat distribution. Some rads would heat up and the same rads wouldn't at times. It was like playing Russian roulette, steam version.

Here is my dilemma:

Cutting a section of the pipe shouldn't be a problem, however, threading in place will be a challenge (plus I don't have the tool, have to check for rentals). From reading many how-to's, I have to apply a good amount of pressure to get it going, not to mention the torque stress put on the pipe . Now, I can jimmy-rig some wood bracers (attached to the ceiling) around the work area to counter the up/down forces. Would the torque forces be an issue? my common sense tells me it's easier to thread when you have the pipe braced to a clamp (not that i've done it before, just seems logical).

What i'm proposing:

On my 2.5" pipe (2.875" OD), using a female-threaded saddle clamp (bi-metal of course) to attach my male-threaded 3/4' B&J big mouth main vent. Is this acceptable permanent practice and can you recommend a good saddle clamp? Or would you recommend to just cut/thread in-place and add a tee fitting, if so any potential "gotcha" tips you can give?

Thanks for your help!



EP

ewalls29

Found something similar here. Looks like the gasket on the clamp can be an issue over time.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1115717

But still looking for some advise on cutting/threading in-place. Have you done this in the past?

Gsmith

Yes you can use a service saddle to install a main vent where you have indicated. Be sure your pipe is 5" (5.563" od). The saddle is installed by drilling the appropriate size hole in the pipe (you can drill on the horizontal, 45 deg up or top depending on the available space. JCM Industries offers one for a 5" pipe with various size outlets from 1/2" to about 2", see their catalog at: https://www.jcmindustries.com/media/54801/JCM March 2016 402 404 Service Saddles.pdf . Be sure to order the optional EPDM gasket which is rated for steam temperatures, the normal rubber gasket will not last. This is a pretty easy install, but many here believe it is better to cut and thread in a T instead. That said, I have installed two Big Mouth vents in 2-1/2" steam mains using similar service saddles about 3 years ago and am very happy.

Gsmith

and here is a picture of a Big Mouth on a 2-1/2" steam main using a Romac saddle (I don't believe Romac makes a saddle for a 5" steel pipe.

ewalls29

Gary, I was wrong in my measurements. Its 2 1/2".

What you did is exactly what i'm looking to do, and your pic is worth 1,000 instructions thank you so much!

Gsmith

Both JCM and Romac make saddles for 2-1/2" pipe, the Romac in the picture is model 101U. BE SURE TO ORDER THE OPTIONAL EPDM GASKET!

Gsmith

And with Romac which is what I used, I had to get the name of a local distributor from the Romac company main number and then order through the distributor, but my local distributor, here in NJ, was happy to take the order over the phone, using my credit card and had it shipped directly to me--didn't need to go there to pick up.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Your not going to thread 2 1/2" in place so forget that idea.
If you can find a saddle with a gasket rated for steam temperature go that route.

If not hire a welder to cut in a thread o let.

ewalls29

Love the honesty lol specially since I never done it before. Add to that, it would need to he dine in-place. Noooooo than you, I know my limitations.

neilc

Gary Smith said:

and here is a picture of a Big Mouth on a 2-1/2" steam main using a Romac saddle (I don't believe Romac makes a saddle for a 5" steel pipe.

apologies for this slight hijack,
@Gary Smith
is there a condesate drain there I don't see?
how is that dropped vent not gathering condensate?
or the vent puking?

Gsmith

It’s not dropped, comes out of the side of the main sloped slightly uphill to the vent. Very little condensate forms from the time the steam enters the saddle fitting until the vent closes, and what does form drains back to the main through the 3/4” hole drilled in the side of the main. No noise or spitting at all.

neilc

I think I realize now the main comes thru the wall,
and that is a takeoff to a rad up thru the soffet,
I was seeing the takeoff as the drop,
tea water in that capped nipple ?

Gsmith

I think you are seeing and referring to a threaded plug in the end of the 90 degree elbow where the main turns down to the dry return. That was a drilled and tapped hole I made for a smaller vent some years ago and abandoned in favor of the 3/4" saddle and big mouth vent. System works way better now.

ewalls29

So after some searching got a Smith and Blair saddle the fits pipes with 1.62-1.92 O.D. (the saddle came with EPDM gasket). The pipe I'm installing this on falls right in the middle (1.79 OD). I've never installed one of these before and wondering if the gasket on the saddle should fit or sit flush when slimy placing the saddle on top of the pipe? Either way, tried clamping it down thinking it will make a tight seal and really not sealing (still a small gap). Didn't want to tighten it any further so not to over torque. I'm on my way to buy a torque wrench. The instructions have some torque instructions, so hopefully that's what it is.

The images shows the saddle laying on the pipe not clamped.

Thoughts?

KC_Jones

It needs to come down tight, also you really need to clean up the outside of the pipe before installation, any o-ring or gasket needs a clean sealing surface. The crud/corrosion could be impacting the fit.

I don't know what size pipe you have there. 1.79" OD doesn't line up with any standard pipe size that I am aware of. 1 1/4" pipe is 1.66" OD and 1 1/2" pipe is 1.9" OD. I can't imagine it has that much corrosion accumulation on the outside?!

ewalls29

Your right, probably misremembered. Just remeasured, seems more on the 1.9 side. Really not much rust on it but I'll clean it up better just in case. Should I put some sort of lubrication on the gasket (not too much, just enough so there's no resistance. Sorry if this sounds stupid thought I asked lol).

EP

Gsmith

Follow the Smith-Blair instructions: https://smith-blair.com/assetts/pdf/install/i_009.pdf , they say to clean the pipe exterior (probably a wire brush will work then maybe sandpaper just on the area the gasket covers). S-B says lubricate the gasket with soap water, and tighten. They really are pretty simple to install. I usually drill the hole before putting the saddle on the pipe to avoid damaging the female threads.

ewalls29

Thanks Gary.

Just realized they sent me the wrong part
They sent me 3/4" CC thread on the tap. I went all over trying find some sort of adapter/fitting.

mikeg2015

Looks like Victaulic will work too. https://ordering.fwwebb.com/woitem/205004

SteamingatMohawk

I did add a service saddle to my single pipe residential system. I found both the Victaulic and Smith-Blair saddles. Getting the right gasket material is the issue in both cases. It is not enough to say get EPDM, because there are several formulations, most of which are not acceptable in low pressure steam. If you use the wrong formulation, the gasket won't last. Additionally, this may be a fine point, but there could be liability if something goes wrong and it is in a rental or commercial property. When I talked to Smith-Blair there was an unacceptable lead time to getting the saddle with the correct gasket; several weeks and I did not want to wait. I also talked to Victaulic and their saddles that are at FW Webb are for fire protection service and do not come with EPDM. The person I traded emails with clearly stated the company will not stand behind using their fitting in a low pressure steam system. I bought the fitting anyhow and got a replacement piece of gasket material, cut it and installed the saddle. With such low pressure in my residential system, the saddle is certainly structurally adequate. Make sure you get a gasket good for 250F or more, if you can find it. Some of the other components in my system are rated at 250F, so I settled for that rating. I was not able to find material good for 300F, which would be preferred. I also remember seeing a table with recommended applications and most said, "not for steam", but that may not be referring to very low pressure systems, like in a residential steam system. The fallback if the gasket does not work out is to use something like JB Weld (not preferred), because it seems like a Rube Goldberg way to solve the problem, even though the temperature and pressure of the system are well below the capabilities of the correct formulation of JB Weld.

Finally, if you do use the saddle and penetrate the pipe from the top, be very careful about getting it vertical. If you are off too much, any vents with moving parts may not operate properly. I was off less than 10 degrees and didn't have a problem. I do not advocate being sloppy with positioning the opening in the pipe as the saddle has raised areas to get a tight fit, so there isn't much flexibility is positioning without cannabilizing the fitting.

Good luck and I hope this message isn't too late.

Gsmith

I believe most EPDM gaskets will be fine for low pressure steam systems. The temperature of 5 psi steam is 227^F. Most low pressure residential systems should run at less than 5 psi, and so the temperature will be between 212 and 227.

I had no trouble getting a servicable EPDM gasket from Romac.

ewalls29

Good info! Message is definitely not late. I'm still waiting for the correct part to arrive. smith-blair took responsibility for sending the wrong part (CC thread instead of NPT). The gasket is EPDM. Should be getting new part today.

The install is for residential steam for low pressure. no where near 5 psi. Great tip on the saddle install. Thankfully the pipe isn't too difficult to access. I'll take some pics along the way and upload!

ewalls29

Got the new part installed no issues! For the sake of anyone else installing i've attached some images.

However......the trap doesn't close when the steam is on. As the dry return pipe gets hot I see a little bit of steam come out sporadically then it stops. The pipe itself by the saddle gets hot but I can still keep my hand on without feeling like I'm getting burnt. Something I just noticed was I ordered the Barnes & Jone BJ-3BM (Big Mouth Vent) and realized the vent I have is a Mepco MLV-3BM (valve.jpg). They look identical. Will the trap reaming open negatively affect my steam system? I was originally going to get the Gorton No. 1 but was recommended the big mouth vent because it lets more air out.

I did however notice the radiators get raging hot much quicker. Even one radiator that never turned one, came on (finally!). I do still have one radiator (on the first floor) not too far from the furnace still not turning on (radiator is properly pitched). But i'll troubleshoot that later.

I've also attached images of my furnace setup to make sure it's setup correctly (haven't made any changes). If it helps, setup wise, I live in a 3627 sq. ft. victorian. Could pressure not be set correctly, enough to force the vent trap to close?

ethicalpaul

I think that looks damn good. That’s a Big Mouth, apparently with a private label (official or ???)

It’s not the pressure that makes it close, it’s the temperature. I’m having some trouble understanding what you mean where you desscribe the action of the vent.

You’ll see a puff of condensation for a few seconds, and some water droplets forming on the exit port of the vent, and then it will seal. It closes when steam hits the vent, not when the boiler first fires up.

Your pressuretrol is set far too high for my liking. Lower it to .5

That’s .5 psi (the right side scale), not 5 😅 In other words, the very bottom (but not lower)

ewalls29

Thanks ethicalpaul! To rephrase: There's a coin-size part by the port of the vent were i saw the puff of condensate (as you said). I literally waited there until the boiler came to temperature and never saw the vent seal. I mentioned I was able to hold the dry run pipe with out any issues (although still hot) to point out the fact that temperature was not at peak or as high as temp of the main pipe coming out of the boiler. It's my understanding that, once steam reaches all radiator fins and hits the air vent, it will close. Considering all radiator air vents are closed, steam will find its way to the dry (last mile) run. And that's what would make the main vent close (as you also described). My question is, if the dry run never gets hot enough for the vent to close, will that be an issue?

I attached a pic of the main vent opening I was referring to.

Fred

Actually, the steam will travel to the main/return vent before it travels to the radiators. The further back the vent is on the return, the further steam will push the air, to that vent.

The Big Mouth is a trap that Barnes and Jones converted to a Main vent. It may look like the Mepco but it is not. The Mepco is not a vent. I'm not sure why that would have been on a one pipe system.

As has been said, turn that Pressuretrol down to .5PSI and take the cover off of it and make sure the white wheel is set to "1" (facing the front).

If the Big Mouth lets steam out, send it back and request a replacement. It should not leak or let a puff of steam out, at all.

ewalls29

Thanks Fred. I've set the Pressuretrol to .5 and confirmed 1 on the white wheel.

Was my saddle placement correct?: 12 inch from right before it drops below the water line level.

The white "smoke" wasn't steam. Like Ethicalpaul mentioned, it was probably puff of condensate (the puff wasn't hot/warm at all).

I sent the supplier an email, although it's been about 43 days since It was purchased. Was having trouble finding a saddle with epdm gasket without it being a 1month+ lead time. But let's see what the supplier says. The invoice clearly says b&j part. Hopefully won't have to eat up the cost.

Fred

@ewalls29 , the placement is fine. B&J is excellent about backing up this product. If you bought it through Amazon, you should make the return request to Amazon. Does it continue to "puff"? if so, it needs to be replaced. If it was just the first time after installation, there could have been a bit of dirt/metal shaving that prevented it from sealing.

ewalls29

It was through supplyhouse.com.

Nope doesn't "puff" after things are at temperature (and if it does its sporadic not constant stream). However, like I mentioned before, the part that suppose to close (sent image in my previous post circled red) stays open. Is it normal for the last leg of the return pipe to not be as hot but further up section of the same pipe be piping hot? If heat is what activates this vent to close, it's not happening

Fred

My guess is that, with the way the Pressuretrol was set, the boiler was building enough pressure to push water back up that vertical pipe and not letting the vent get to steam temp. The return should get hot, to that vent and close it. Watch it now that you have properly set the Pressuretrol.

ewalls29

Got some positive news! after the Pressuretrol change I can definitely tell the difference system wide. The dry run is now getting piping hot (no pun intended lol). The main vent installation made a major difference as well, got 2 radiators that never turned on to fire up! (one in the 1st floor the other on 3rd floor).

But i'm afraid there is still a bit of cat and mouse game to play here. On my third floor, I have two rads. One has Thermostatic Rad Valve (pic attached) along with a D size air vent (image attached
The other rad only has a Gorton D size air valve (no TLV). Rad with the TLV previously turned on (but not as much due to system previously not being efficient), but now it's not. Only the other rad turns on. What's that an indication of? All the other rads in two other floors are fine.

Fred

Could be several different things. For starters:
-Radiator vent could be stuck closed
- TRV isn't working
- Boiler isn't running long enough to get steam to that third floor before the Thermostat is satisfied, on a lower floor. How close to a radiator is the thermostat?
- you have a digital/programmable thermostat that is programmed for 5 cycles per hour (factory default) and it needs to be programmed for 1 cycle per hour.

gfrbrookline

What are you using for vents on your radiators? I am guessing now that your mains are venting better you are over venting your radiators and the radiators closest to the boiler are stealing all of the steam. They should be vented slowly, I would try either hoffman 40's or ventrite #1's. The ventrite's are adjustable and will let you fine tune each radiator to balance out the heat.

gfrbrookline

Was the TRV put on the third floor to prevent overheating?

ewalls29

most of my rads have the adjustable air vents (Emerson - already in place). I dialed in based on this chart from Gorton location chart

ewalls29

@gfrbrookline , there was a point when that specific rad would produce hell on earth even at single digits temperatures outside. It's not a big room so it was a waste of steam. The TLV has helped tremendously. I have another in my bed room on the second floor. It's helped for the past year.

gfrbrookline

Throw away the posted picture, it's to generic. Radiators need to be vented based on size and proximity to the boiler not just proximity.

I am assuming you mean Ventrite's for your radiator vents. If so good choice. Dial your small radiators down to 3 and work your way up based on radiator size. Take the TRV off and replace it with another ventire vented to the size of the radiator. You should be able to dial each radiator in to balance the heat throughout the building.

Be patient it takes time.

ewalls29

@Fred I think the main problem here was the heat not running long enough for my 3rd floor rad to come on (I did remove the TLV and vent and shook it in case it was stuck closed). I set the temperature to 70 (previously was running at 69) and that seemed to do the trick. Nice and cozy in the third floor!

Thanks everyone for you help!!!! The only thing left to do here tweak the rad airvents and adjust for size! as always forum was super helpful.

Fred

@ewalls29 , Sounds like a winner!

ewalls29

One last question! Why does this needle always stay in the same spot whether the system is running or not? Should I be concerned?

Gsmith

0 to 30 psi gauge is not real sensitive at the low pressures you are operating at (0.5 psi and below), but is required by most codes. If you are really interested in the operating pressure, get a 0 to 3 psi gauge and put it on a T with the existing 0-30 psi gauge.