Trane Concealed Steam/Vapor Heat Problem -- Leak

LK

Very helpful. Thanks! Only thing I didn't fully understand -- with respect to the Vertical Pipe, when you said the pipe would have to be "turned out at the top". What does that mean?

Also, how would the flushing out work, and would I need a port for that somewhere in the new piping, or could I use the hose bib that is already right near my boiler.

Finally, if you still think it makes sense to dig down a little into the concrete near that one pipe coming up from the floor -- I will do that. I thought some suggested that didn't matter. Right now, there are at least four pipes that go underground. I have no idea if they meet up into one pipe somewhere, or if they independently come back to that one spot next to the boiler.

Thanks.

Fred

@LK , when you say there are at least 4 pipes that go underground, do you mean the 4 you have identified or 4 other ones?
If you are talking about the 4 pipes that you know about, don't worry about those. They will be replaced with your new return pipe configuration. If there is any question about any other hidden pipes that might drop to the floor, anywhere else in that basement floor, then dig around the pipe that comes up out of the floor and see if it is connected to other pipes, perhaps from another direction. We know that is the only buried return coming out of the floor. We just need to verify that several other unknow pipes aren't also tied into it somewhere under the floor.

By "turned out" I mean those vertical pipes are connected, at the top of that bump-out into an elbow or a Tee. They have to be taken out of that elbow/Tee and either cut and threaded (if reused) or replaced with new threaded pipe.

Also, If you already have hose bib at the boiler, connected to the return that goes into the boiler, that's fine. You still need another hose bib at the furthest point of the new return that you are installing. That way, once a year or so, you can open both bibs, hook a garden hose to a water supply and to one of those bibs and flush the water/crud out through the other bib.

LK

How far down should I go at that pipe? So far, I am 3.5" down, and do not see any pipes coming in.

Fred

LK said:

How far down should I go at that pipe? So far, I am 3.5" down, and do not see any pipes coming in.

go down at least till you find where a pipe is either elbowed or tee'd to the pipe coming out of the floor. If it is elbowed and in the direction of the pipes in those bump-outs, then you are good. If you find a Tee, you may need to go a few more inches down to see what else is connected. I would say somewhere between six to 9 inches you should find something.

LK

Wow. That is further than I thought. How thick is my garage floor? I thought only 4" of concrete. So these return pipes are burried in the dirt below my garage floor? Do far I am 5.5" down and nothing. Pic attached.

Fred

LK said:

Wow. That is further than I thought. How thick is my garage floor? I thought only 4" of concrete. So these return pipes are burried in the dirt below my garage floor? Do far I am 5.5" down and nothing. Pic attached.

Yep, floor is about 4 inches, typically 4 to six inches of gravel. Pipe may well be under the gravel and in the dirt.

LK

Now 9" down and no elbow and no Tee.

Suggestions?

Pic attached.

Fred

Keep going until you hit it. It's there!

JUGHNE

A 4" pour of floor that sits on an 8-10 thick footing would put a pipe 12-14" below floor. And they may have buried more just to avoid contract with concrete as it was poured.
That must have been original to the house. That pipe shown does not look too bad.
If the entire wet return is that deep then it is hiding pretty well. The water could disappear without notice. And heat trace would hard to feel and maybe not visible with a FLIR device.
Any "new" return added in the 50's may not be that deep.

LK

I am just digging up dirt at this point. After the first few inches of concrete, it has just been dirt and rocks. Does not seem like a footing, at least not in the boiler room, where this pipe is.

How would they have connected an underground wet return from the 1950 addition to the rest of the piping? Wouldn't it have been difficult to connect to what was already underground from 15 years earlier? Is it possible that all the returns on the 1950 addition side are at the ceiling, and that they only drop below ground at the bumpout in the room next to the garage?

Thanks.

KC_Jones

Anything is possible, we aren't there to dig around and see.

I'll be honest, my basement walls and ceiling would have been littered with holes at this point, but I do all my own work so I'm not worried about a few holes.

JUGHNE

There may not be a proper footing under that garage wall, it may not have a structural supporting wall. The others between the garage and finished basement may have footings however.

Fred

That is the only pipe that comes out of the floor and connects to your boiler. There is a connection down there somewhere and you have to dig down far enough to find it or take a chance that there are no other connections below ground and go for tying in those pipes in the bump-out. If it were me and I had gone this far, I'd go the rest of the way. It just might be that since your garage is at grade (even though it is under your house, the ground freeze point would be 30 to 36" below grade) so they may have gone down that far knowing that that pipe would always be filled with water.

The real question now is, did they even tie into that underground return for the 1950's addition? Seems doubtful. Makes me think there has to be yet another return back to the boiler and that it may have been encased in the concrete floor. or they tied into one of the dry returns somewhere. Are you 100% sure those pipes on the far bump out nearest the addition drop from a steam pipe? Are you sure they are not drain pipes for a sink or bathtub? Is there plumbing (bathroom or other) in that addition? Something isn't fully discovered yet, which is why I wanted you to do some discovery work around that pipe that comes out of the floor. It would be a shame to run new pipe around your basement only to find out that something still leaks, somewhere. How many steam radiators are in that addition? Do they have one pipe connections or is there a pipe on both ends of those radiators with a trap on one end? Are they plumbed like the rest of the radiators in the original part of the house?

LK

@Fred would it be possible for me to dig down 30-36" at that tight spot? As it is, I am reaching down with my arm to pull the dirt out, and my arm is shorter than 30".

To answer your questions:

1). Yes, I am sure 1 of the pipes going down the wall in the far bumpout is the continuation of the steam pipe and one is the continuation of the return. Same in the near bumpout. On each side, both The steam pipe and the return pipe have a vent on them, right before the pipe turns to bend down into the wall. And the steam pipe in each case is wrapped in asbestos insulation (along the bulkhead and in the bumpout).

2). Those pipes are not drain pipes. There is plumbing in the 1950 addition on the second floor, where there is a bathroom/shower. I think I can see where this drain into.

3). Diagram attached has radiators labeled with single arrow at site of first floor radiator and double arrow at site of second floor radiator.

4). Radiators in 1950s addition look like they are piped in the same way as the older part of the house (1935). Two pipes on each. No traps that I know of. I have been told they have orifices. It is a Trane Concealed system. The radiators are hidden in the walls.

Thanks.

Fred

@LK , does that basement under the 1950's addition look like that basement was built in the 1950's ? Is the construction any different or do the materials look any different? I'm wondering if that was part of the original house, maybe with just a one story room or four season room above it and they added a second story to it? That might mean that the wet return is original and could be tied into and buried as part of the original construction. At this point, we need any additional clues you can uncover. The only other possibility is that the new addition only has a dry return but that has to tie into a wet or dry return somewhere. Can you see where any pipes (Steam and return) penetrate the common basement wall between the original house and what we are calling the 1950's addition?

LK

Yes. It looks like the bumpout nearest to the garage has two pipes (one steam and one return) which come along the ceiling from the 1950s addition, across the finished basement room next to the garage, and then go down the wall into the larger bumpout right next to the garage wall. Am I just being hopeful to think that that means that there are no underground returns in the 1950s addition -- but just dry overhead returns that terminate into the wet return that I have identified?

What I am calling the 1950s addition was finished when the entire basement was finished in the early 1990s -- so it all looks the same. There is drywall covering everything, including the ceiling, and built-ins and tile -- so difficult to discern if any portion of that part of the house was originally from 1935. It is possible the basement and first floor are from 1935, since the brick in the front of the house matches across the entire first floor, and the
exterior on second floor on the 1950s addition is wood slats.

Fred

I'm thinking more and more that there likely is no wet return in that 1950 Addition and if the brick matches and you see no seam or difference in the color of the mortar joints that would suggest they toothed in brick to continue the wall, I'm also betting that a portion of what we are considering the 1950's addition is original to the house.
Since both of those Bump-outs are inside what we know to be the original portion of the house and you see no indications anywhere else where a pipe goes into the concrete, it makes me more comfortable that cutting and tying those drops (in the bump-outs) into a pipe and carrying it around the basement wall may fix your problem.

JUGHNE

If the 1950's addition is original to the house, why then the step down to it from the other basement?

Fred

JUGHNE said:

If the 1950's addition is original to the house, why then the step down to it from the other basement?

I'm thinking it may have been a coal bin or maybe even where an oil tank was placed

JUGHNE

LK, does the chimney for the boiler seem to be original to the house? Any evidence of a coal shoot window/door....about 2' square or so.
Also how does the boiler steam main head to the house?

LK

First, I was able to dig down further at the place the wet return connects back behind the boiler. There is only one pipe connecting in there and it is travelling away from the boiler, parralel to the wall behind the boiler, toward the finished basement. Picture attached.

@JUGHNE not sure if chimney is original. Attaching a picture that looks like a door and a picture of the exhaust vents. The boiler main goes up to the ceiling of the boiler room, then through the cindeblock at the top of the boiler room, into the garage, then some piping goes around the garage ceiling and some piping goes through the cindeblock at the ceiling into the finished basement.

JUGHNE

From your digging pictures it looks as if you have been digging down along side the footing for the garage wall. This would place your wet return under a "warm" room verses the garage floor. Although the garage was a heated room originally.

The other questions concerning the chimney and coal shoot window, (you might see outside above grade going thru the wall into the basement, often replaced with a window although it would be an odd size today), are to determine, if possible, that your boiler had been relocated from the 1950 basement to where it is now. Looking at the chimney and clean out door it looks like the original spot IMO.

LK

I agree, the current wet return probably travels under the full length of the boiler room, then crosses under what is now the bathroom, and then makes a left turn to travel under the finished room with the bumpout to meet the pipes in the bumpout. That would cost me a fortune to follow that path with the replacement return.

I am comfortable following the dotted line on my diagram with the new replacement wet return, or a path hugging along the garage walls (if it is bad for my car to be driving over the refilled trench once the replacement pipe is embedded in my garage floor). I will still have to go underground at the garage doorways, so will still have a lot of piping imbedded in the garage floor.

While not perfect, I think this is my only option. Thoughts?

Only other possibility, could I run piping From the bottom of each bumpout, up to the ceilings and out towards the boiler room, and install a pump to send the return water (and steam drip water) back to the boiler?

Thanks.

Fred

Don't put a pump in the mix. It just adds another point for failure and creates a low point in your piping that will likely back up with condensate before the pump even kicks on.
Good job finding that buried elbow! Stick with the plan to run your new return around the perimeter of the finished basement. I don't see why that would even require you to bury any piping, except under two 36 inch doors and only one of those in a finished area. The cost of any extra piping is no greater that cutting into the garage floor and then repairing it or the cost of a pump and wiring it in with some kind of tank/float control.

LK

@Fred thanks. Unfortunately, going the long way around the basement is not an option, because there are closets, a doorway, built-ins, a fireplace, and a bathroom/shower in the way.

I attach three options shown in Orange.

Version 1 is to run the New Piping above ground from the small bumpout around the perimeter of the room, and join up with the pipe at the bottom of the large bumpout. From there poke through the cindeblock garage wall, go immediately into the garage floor on a diaganol to the other side of the garage. Then through the cindeblock wall into the return.

Version 2 is the same, except the first piping (from the small bumpout) would go out the cindeblock wall at the second Wall (to preserve Wall space inside the finished room). It would then run alongside the garage wall and join up with the pipe from the larger bumpout in the garage. From there, go immediately into the garage floor on a diaganol to the other side of the garage. Then through the cindeblock wall into the garage.

Version 3 is the same, except go into the garage floor along the edge of the wall (instead of at a diaganol) so the car doesn't drive over the pipe.

Thoughts?

Fred

@LK , if I had to pick one of those options, I would pick #1. If you go with #2 or #3, you are exposing that pipe that runs along the garage floor to freezing, since they are always filled with water. That water will be warm, initially but in a power failure or if you turn the thermostat down, while on vacation or something, they will freeze and burst.
Even with option #1, a trench, on the diagonal will minimize the length of pipe exposed to freezing weather, if I were going to do the trench, I'd still trench below the frost point (probably 3 ft) like the old buried pipe, for the added safety. I would then fill around it and over it with a bed of sand or pea gravel and then compacted dirt and four inches of concrete floor. I believe that will give you protection from freezing and also allow for some pipe protection should the floor repair settle a little (which I doubt will happen but it is possible)

LK

Thanks. How would I be able to go down three feet in a narrow trench dug into my garage floor? Sounds difficult to do without major demolition. Couldn't I go down a few inches and patch over it. Maybe put a metal plate covering the spot the one tire of the car will have to go over. Then if the pipe freezes and bursts, it will be confined to that 16 foot run, and relatively easy to fix?

One other question, what do you think of copper pipe instead of black pipe?

Thanks.

Fred

Going down 30 to 36" isn't as difficult as you think. Cut a 12" wide trench in the concrete, dig out what you can reach and then use a manual post hole digger to scoop down the rest of the way. You can actually rent a power trencher for half a day from a tool rental and trench the whole thing if you want. Do half of it in one direction towards one wall then turn it around and trench towards the other wall.

I would stick with Schedule 80 black pipe, if it were me. Copper is much more likely to split in a freeze and the ends that connect back up to the black pipe can also be a problem over a few years due to the different metals. You want to do this one time and never have to do it again, at least in your lifetime.

nicholas bonham-carter

I commend you all for hitting the 150 post mark on this problem!!--NBC

LK

Thanks!

Any thoughts to add to all the great insights which have been shared, please let me know.

LK

Opened up the walls some more today. A bizarre thing happened. I had the heat off all day. I turned it back on. After the boiler had been running about 20 minutes, water started shooting out of the Gorton #1 Vent at the end of the dry return at the small bumpout (the vent is at the spot right before the pipe bends to go down the wall). Pictures attached. Does anyone know what would cause this? I don't think this has been happening for very long, because a lot of water was coming out of the vent very forcefully. If this had happened before, there would have been lots of water coming from being the wall.

nicholas bonham-carter

Overly high pressure can cause the water to be pushed up higher in the wet returns to the level of the main vents.
The float in the Gorton vents can only hold back so much pressure, before it leaks.
Check your pressure with a 0-3 psi gauge, and verify the pigtail is clear.—NBC

LK

@nicholas bonham-carter Thanks. I left the boiler off last night, and the water level in the site glass went down a lot -- so I still think my underground returns are leaking. I cleaned out the pigtail and lowered the cutoff pressure. Still have water coming from that vent after 11-12 minutes of the boiler running. A lot of air comes out of it first for 5-6 minutes. Then the noise stops, and water starts shooting out (a lot of water). I just replaced all 4 vents (2 on steams, 2 on returns). They are all Gorton #2s, except the one that is leaking the water, which is a Gorton #1. I couldn't fit a Gorton #2 in that spot, since it is right next to a wood beam. Is it possible a larger vent at that spot would solve this problem? Is it possible I have a clog in my wet return, and not an underground leak -- with the clog causing the water to back up and shoot out through that vent? Given I have added tens of gallons, maybe hundreds of gallons, of water to my boiler in the past 4-5 weeks -- I highly doubt that that much water could have disappeared through that vent. I think this is just a coincidence. Thoughts?

Thanks!

@JUGHNE @Fred @KC_Jones any thoughts? Thanks!

LK

I just changed the Gorton #1 to a Gorton #2, and turned on the boiler -- and after 18 minutes, water started shooting out of the top of the Gorton #2 at that same spot. I am baffled.

nicholas bonham-carter

At normal pressures (under 1.5 psi), the Gorton 2 should not leak.
I do think you must have a clog in the return.
Maybe you could screw on a female hose fitting to the vent tapping to blow the clog along to a point where you could remove it.
Maybe someone else will weigh in on the advisability of that suggestion.—NBC

JUGHNE

With the wall now open, is there evidence of water leaking in the past. As you say a lot of water has disappeared.
Is the wood and sheetrock stained? Are there any openings in the concrete floor inside the bump outs where that much water could have seeped straight down and you not see staining?

Back to the plastic water tube test. Your visible end of the tube lost water and was well below the vent height. You could repeat that test to verify the water is going somewhere else besides the air vent.

Now, perhaps your leaking return has mud in it and being partially plugged causes the back up to the vent.

You could remove the vent and plug the hole. Then the steam/air/water pressure may open the mud plug, allowing the condensate to drain into the mud under the floor; you might get water hammer when this happens.

Fred

@LK , With the fact you are losing water, in the boiler with it off, overnight, it is clear there is a leak in that buried return. It appears that dirt/crud has probably collected somewhere in that return, probably washing into or from that leak enough to block water from returning to the boiler, causing it to fill the return up to that vent, which I'm guessing is the lowest vent on any of your returns. I suspect if you were to take that vent off and put a plug in it (just for testing) and run the boiler, that the next lowest vent on the returns would blow water.

In any case, you could not possibly have added and lost that much water and not had it show up on the floor. It remains a leak, in that wet return.

JUGHNE

Mind Melding with Fred

LK

OK. Thanks. Do you think when I fix/replace the wet return with the above ground one -- that this will fix all my problems? Is it possible this steam vent will still be spewing out water after the wet return is replaced? One thing I forgot to mention -- I had all of the asbestos removed from the two steam pipes on Friday -- in preparation for the wet return replacement. Could this have anything to do with the vent now spewing water out of it?

Thanks.

Fred

LK said:

OK. Thanks. Do you think when I fix/replace the wet return with the above ground one -- that this will fix all my problems? Is it possible this steam vent will still be spewing out water after the wet return is replaced? One thing I forgot to mention -- I had all of the asbestos removed from the two steam pipes on Friday -- in preparation for the wet return replacement. Could this have anything to do with the vent now spewing water out of it?

Thanks.

I'm pretty sure the new wet return will fix this problem as well. It would be extraordinary that a vertical would get plugged and you know that's not the case here or water wouldn't get up to that vent.