Trane Concealed Steam/Vapor Heat Problem -- Leak

JUGHNE

Either one is good.
Vent male threads are brass. Brass, being softer, will usually seal easier than steel to steel.
So easy on the wrenching, you can always add 1/2 turn if a drip shows up.

LK

The hose I have is 5 1/2 feet. Is that too long for the test you described? Thanks.

JUGHNE

Have you ever heard of a water tube level?
This might be used by ceiling tile grid hangers to get the ceiling level from one end to the other.
They might have a 100' length of clear plastic tubing full of water.
They would secure one end to the wall at the level they wanted the ceiling grid to be. Then drag the other end across the room to the opposite wall. The water in the tube would seek its own level. (they may have to add/remove water to get up to the level they want.)
So when they have the water level at each end of the room the same that is their level mark across the room. Both ends would be attached to the wall.
Now if there was a leak in the tubing, both water levels in each end would drop.
This is what you are doing, only you are monitoring only the one end of the tube/hose/pipe that you can see. The ceiling guys might have an extra 50' of tubing laying on the floor....it does not matter as long is it is all full of water.

So, your 5 1/2' hose is OK. The excess will just lay on the floor full of water as the water seeks its own level.

If you follow the pipe coming up out of the floor, it goes to the left and then up, over to the left and connects into a Tee. That Tee is your Hartford Loop. That would the level that your hose should end up at.

LK

And, when I hold/tie up the hose, after I top it off, should the end of the hose be higher or lower than the Hartford Loop? Thanks.

LK

And, what is the best way to determine if the water level has gone down? How do you see into the hose if it is not clear?

JUGHNE

You could look down into the top of the hose once it is at the critical height.

Change of plans; this will be easier:

Shut off the power to the boiler.

You could go get about 5' of 5/8" or 3/4" internal diameter clear hose and install a female hose fitting on one end.

Secure the loose end of the clear hose about 1' above the height of the Hartford Loop Tee. It does not have to be at the Tee itself.
Remember the water will seek it's own level.
Open the little hose bib you are connected to.

Slowly open the manual water feed valve (that is the closed ball valve near the water feeder) you will hear water filling the system.
Watch the level in the clear hose, when it reaches the max height shut off the feed valve.
Wait 10 minutes, "top off" the level again. Do this two more times. Now all air should be out of the loop you are testing.

Watch the level to see is it drops. If it does and you can not see where the water went, then it is leaking under the floor.


Let us know is this works out.

Fred

Guys, he is losing gallons of water and there is no obvious water pooling on any floors, no wet spots on ceilings or walls. The only place it could be leaking is under the basement floor. I think the issue for this OP is the fact that he sees a return pipe come out of the floor, near the boiler but he can't find the other end where it drops below the floor. He needs help finding that end of the pipe and, if he can't find it, he needs another set of eyes on site, preferably a Pro who might know where to look and that might mean opening a wall in the finished part of the basement.

JUGHNE

Yes, I can see the water level tube might get confusing for the HO.
It was just for him to confirm that was the leaking point and be confident that the repair was needed.

Next step could be to buy or rent a FLIR camera.
$350 will get you a pretty good one.

If the system was run for some time and condensate was returning hot. A shot of the floor would show a large pooling at a leak. Also see thru the wall where the return dropped down into the floor.
He will eventually need a pro and it might be possible to run a dry return pipe to replace the wet return.

LK

Thanks Jughne and Fred. I really appreciate you sharing your expertise and insights. Today I replaced my four vents (took a really long time since they are in tight spots in the finished basement ceiling). So far, one hour into it, this is helping a lot. I think the hissing vents were a big part of the problem. Water level went down a little after running for about an hour. After dinner, I will turn the heat back on and see how it does. I will get the clear tubing you suggest and try that next. Thanks.

LK

Went to turn the heat back on just now -- 3 hours later -- and the water level in the boiler went way down (from 1/3 of the way up the sight glass to way below the bottom of the sight glass). Had to add a lot of water to start up the boiler.

Fred

That floor where the pipe comes up looks like it would be fairly easy to gingerly take a cement chisel and chip out a 4" to 6" ring around the pipe and see which direction the underground pipe runs. My guess is it runs at 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the wet return that runs along the wall. That would be the only logical reason that they would have buried it, so that it doesn't run on top of the floor and across the open space I n the basement. If it doesn't run perpendicular, it will have to run at a 45 degree angle but should still be visible when you chip out a little concrete.

LK

Just did the test. Water level went down 2 inches in 3 hours -- in both the clear hose and the sight glass.

How far beneath the concrete floor will the pipe be?

Tomorrow, I will scan in a diagram of my boiler room / garage / basement, since I am still baffled as to where this pipe goes underground. It would have to go under (or through) the cinderblock wall of the boiler room. Very confusing.

Fred

That pipe should be just beneath the concrete slab. Do you have a radiator in your garage or rooms over your garage with radiators? If so, it's possible the underground return runs across your garage floor. If not, the return likely runs across your basement floor.

KC_Jones

Have you found the other end of the underground return? That's how I would start this off, sort of like working a maze in reverse.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

Have you found the other end of the underground return? That's how I would start this off, sort of like working a maze in reverse.

At this point, that's what he is still trying to do, @KC_Jones . I suggested he chip away at the concrete where the pipe comes up out of the floor, near his boiler. If he can do that, he will likely be able to see which direction the underground pipe runs (at least initially) and get him started in the right direction.

LK

Yes, I have a radiator in the garage (hanging down from the ceiling), that is just on the other side of the wall from the underground pipe. I turned it off many years ago, since I didn't need the heat in the garage. It is fed from a pipe in the ceiling and exits to a pipe in the ceiling. And, my kitchen is above the garage, and there are 3 radiators in the kitchen. I can see where two of the radiators are fed steam, from pipes at the garage ceiling. I cannot see where the third radiator is fed from. It is right above my garage door. I assume it is receiving steam from the pipes from the room next to it.

Something bizarre just happened. Four hours post my test, the water level in the clear tube had gone down 2.5 inches. Then I opened the garage door for a few minutes and closed it, and the water in the clear tube dropped another 5.5 inches in just a few minutes. Could be random, or could it maybe be related to air pressure?

Finally, I am attaching a diagram of my lower level
. Also, I am attaching a picture of the other side of the wall in the basement where I identified a warm spot (maybe a place that is the other side of the underground wet return). It is just on the other side of the garage wall. But, interestingly, there is a capped pipe just below the garage ceiling on the garage side of the wall, at the exact spot where the wall is warm (up and down) on the other side (the finished side). Pipe in question is on right side of picture.

LK

And, one more hour after last time I checked, and the water level in the clear tube dropped 16 inches. Doesn't make sense how it could drop that much in such a short amount of time. In the first 4 hours, it only dropped 2.5 inches. Could this have something to do with pressure in the system/pipes? Thanks.

Fred

Not sure why the water drop was more pronounced but opening the garage door is just coincidental. I would guess that underground pipe is in your garage and most likely runs along the wall with the door (probably inside the basement, under the door opening that you have identified as the boiler room, then takes a 90 degree turn and runs through the wall into the garage, running along the wall between your finished basement and the garage, again under that door. Feel the loor in those areas and see if those areas are warmer than the rest of the floors.

JUGHNE

In your garage picture I see 4 pipes coming thru the wall.
One is capped, what do the other 3 do/go to?

Is your garage, boiler room and finished basement all at the same grade, that is are there any steps up or down between them?

The 4 pipes might be above the finished ceiling.
Your cinder block wall is sitting on the concrete floor.
You can count the blocks to see where the ceiling level would be from the garage side. (assuming the floor levels are all the same).

A diagram of your steam radiators around the house and where the steam starts might show the end of the steam main and where the dry returns drop into the floor.
The drop(s) are most likely not inside a cinder block wall but rather outside of them, encased inside a studded wall.
Your finished basement probably has 2X4 stud walls over the cinder block wall and the pipe drop(s) may be in between those studs.
If you had a box-out of the finished wall somewhere, sort of looking like an unnecessary post, that would be a clue for the drop pipe(s).

The floor in the boiler room that has the pipe coming up looks like an easy break up. I would start there, a little ways back from the wall.

The warm spot you seek would be in the floor, not necessarily the wall. If leaking in the wall it would have shown up by now.

Fred

A warm wall might be a clue. Condensate is still pretty warm/hot in a return that drops down a wall.

LK

Fred, could you please diagram in red pen on my diagram where you think the underground pipe is running and post it. I want to make sure I follow what you are suggesting. I have not been able to feel any warm spots on the floor.

Jughne, the basement and garage and boiler room are all at the same grade (no steps). There are pipes going through the wall there. One is capped (would be interested to know what that is). One is hot water. One is cold water. One is steam header. One I think is return. The last two run all the way across the garage ceiling, and then into the finished part of the basement.

The four pipes are definitely above the finished ceiling and below the original ceiling. They are accessible in the first part of the finished basement (just to the right of the garage) via two small trap doors. That is where I changed the 4 vents.

The are radiators all the way on the outside wall of the other side of the house, so I know the steam mains travel the entire distance of the house in the finished part of the basement. I felt the walls of the far side of the basement after the boiler had been running for some time, and they did not feel warm, but there is paneling on the walls, so not sure if that masks the warmth.

I felt and know the pipes run along the front and back of the house along the basement ceiling -- a few feet in from the front edge and rear edge of the house. But, could not tell if there was a wet return at the end of those. There is no box, but perhaps the wet return just drops between the studs in the wall in one or two places (could it be 2 places??).

If the wet return runs along the entire length of my basement and part of my garage and boiler room -- then I am in trouble, since that would be impossible to replace.

At that point, perhaps I am better off converting my central AC to forced air heat with the coils coming off a new boiler. I would have forced air coming up from the floor on the first floor, and coming down from the ceiling on the second floor (which I know is not ideal for the 2nd floor).

Finally, with this much water disappearing, shouldn't I see water somewhere? The only suspect issue in my garage is at the end closest to the garage doors, where there is some cracking of the concrete, and some indentations where the car wheels sit. I always assumed this was due to wear and tear (and being closer to the heat and cold) of a nearly 85 year old house, but maybe this is due to water damage. But, if there are cracks, and there was water there, wouldn't the water come up through the cracks, particularly if the pipes are just below the concrete floor? Thanks.

JUGHNE

Do we have 4 or 5 pipes visible in the garage?
More pictures in the garage would be good.

Your air vents would be on the end of the steam main and the end of the dry returns. From there the piping would drop down into a wet return...….maybe near your ceiling access doors.
So perhaps your best guess is correct. The wet return angles under the garage floor as drawn. If so you are quite lucky and could probably live with a dry return pipe below the garage ceiling going thru the wall and dropping down to the exposed wet return behind the boiler.

Jamie Hall

On the water coming up through the concrete floor -- unfortunately, no. The water will head downwards and join the local groundwater, wherever that may be.

On replacing the wet return -- which is almost certainly leaking, possibly under the garage floor where there may have been some settlement which cracked it -- it shouldn't be a show stopper. So long as a wet return stays below the water level in the boiler, it can go up, down, and sideways as much as you like (though it's always wise to put in a provision to drain low spots...). If part of the line has to be above the water line, that's no problem either -- except that then the line must pitch downwards to wherever it can drop to become wet and stay wet. It is then a dry return with a drip. Perfectly normal.

If it comes to either figuring a way to replace the wet return or scrapping the whole show... you'll be a lot happier if you spend a little extra time and thought in figuring out how to run a new wet return rather than spending a whole lot of money to scrap the steam and put in forced air.

Fred

Fred

Could also be:

JUGHNE

Fred, I could go with your route only if it went under the basement floor and then up at the door.
I am assuming that all walls shown on the sketch have spread footings under them.
So going under the basement means only one footing to deal with. As your red line indicates that means the garage/boiler room footing and then paralleling the garage/bsmt footing and then contending with the garage/bsmt footing, requiring perhaps 2 more 90's.

However being built in 1935 when labor was dirt cheap and shovel labor was even cheaper, I would go with LK's dashed line.
(dealing with 2 footings)
Pipe and fittings was expensive compared to labor.
No danger of freezing as the garage had a radiator.
Wet return under floor because hanging dry return might interfere with the door swings.

I have had the fortune(?) to have worked on several buildings from the WPA projects of the 30's. It was amazing to see the extra work (labor) done to save a little on material.
My best guess at the moment, until more evidence surfaces.

PS, my wife just shook her head about this conversation concerning "Boiler Porn"

Fred

@JUGHNE , I'm kind of thinking a change was made at the time the basement was finished and that capped pipe was originally the return and that it crossed where they cut in a new door. It would have been really unusual for the original home to have had two doors out to the garage, from the basement and they wanted to enter from the garage into the finished area. What do you think?

LK

Posting a better picture of the pipes going through the garage wall into the finished part of the basement. Also posting a picture of the first room to the right of the garage. You were right that the wall comes out a little there, and that is the spot I felt the wall being warm. That is right below two of the vents I replaced (right below the tiny trap door). On the other side of that same room, 11 feet across the room, is the other trap door -- and the wall actually comes out a little there too (but not as much). I am posting a picture of that. There are two vents there as well. I didn't feel the wall there to be warm. Is it possible that the wet return drops on both side of that room, or only likely on the side that is closest to the garage? That room is finished and tiled (and the rest of the basement is also tiled) -- so would be impossible/expensive to dig up and determine a leak.

JUGHNE

Is the capped pipe higher than the steam pipe we see?
And where do the kitchen radiators return to?

The only logic I could see in the 2 doors would be if the original boiler burned coal. The 2 doors would create a buffer between the basement and the boiler room. You could isolate the coal dust from the house basement by going thru the garage.

Or maybe the garage/boiler room door was added and a basement/boiler room door was removed/closed up on the remodel.
Or the garage/boiler door was the only way into the basement.

Do you think the under floor wet return was added during the basement remodeling and the dry return added?
If so there should be evidence of a trench cut into the garage floor.

Fred, short of a field trip, we need a walk around video of the basement etc.

Fred

@JUGHNE , he says all of the areas of the basement is tiled so any trenching would be hidden. If you look at his picture of where that pipe comes out of the floor, in the boiler room, there is a distinct difference in the concrete from the left side to the right side, and, on the right side of the picture it looks like a possible trench repair along the wall ???

LK

Fred, I think you might be right. I just looked, and there is a dark cement plugged hole on both sides right above the door to the boiler room. And then there is an abandoned pipe holder just inside the boiler room going towards the boiler. Unfortunately, there is now an AC duct in the way of what would be a straight line to connect back to the boiler piping.

Pictures attached (first of door leading into boiler room -- the garage side; then of the inside of the boiler room).

LK

I am happy to post a video, and/or more pics if helpful. Just let me know what would be helpful to see. Thanks!

Fred

Yep, I'm betting those pipe hangers held the original return.

JUGHNE

In your ceiling trapdoors, can you feel pipes going down into that "bump out" wall section?
If so then you have your 2 drops.
From looking at the patched holes, pipe hanger and new installed door, these return must have been overhead in the past.
Fred was right, (I have said that at least twice this week), they must have eliminated 2 dry returns and went to under floor wet returns.
If so, possibly you are only looking at sheetrock cutting and repairs.

Could you add the location of the trap doors, garage door and "bump outs" on you drawing?

Do you see evidence of a closed up door between the finished basement and boiler room.

Pictures of the floor in the boiler room where we think the return might be buried.

LK

The capped pipe is just slightly above the steam pipe and even height with the pipe just to the left of the steam pipe (the one to the left I assume is a return?).

Adding pics of three places right below kitchen radiators. The first ones look like the pipes come together. The second is a few feet in from where the radiator is, since there is an AC vent right below the radiator. The third one is the one above the garage door. It is not visible where the steam side or return is for that radiator.

Do you think this could be the only place that my return is underground, or is it still possible it runs along the length of the entire basement? And, do you think the wet return runs under the 11 foot wide finished room, or do you think the wet return starts only at the spot on the other side of the garage wall?

Thanks.

JUGHNE

The air vents are the end of the line for steam and dry returns, from they go back to the boiler.
Your vents are near the boiler room and therefore I believe the returns are just after the vents.

LK

I checked this morning, and there are two drops -- one on each side of the room on the other side of the garage wall. But, they are not in a straight line across from each other. Is this likely 1 wet underground return going from one side of the room to the other (on a slight angle), or is it 2 wet underground returns that meet up closer to the boiler room (maybe in the garage floor)?

I do not see a closed up door between the finished basement and the boiler room.

Attached is updated diagram. It includes labeling of the bump outs (side closest to garage bumps out 7", other side of that room bumps out 1.5"). The 3 trap doors in the finished room are also labeled. Two of them are right above the bump outs. Garage doors also labeled. And, noted that the far side of the house was an addition put on in 1950. There is one step down from the original part of the house into the addition.

Next is updated diagram:

Next 3 pics are of the floor in the boiler room. The darker spot on the next is because that is under the exhaust going to the chimney

Next 4 pictures are from the trap door closest to the garage. They show the pipe that drops down. Presumably, the abandoned pipe is behind that, but couldn't see it or feel it.



The next four pictures are from the center trap door looking toward the garage.

The next two pictures are from the trap door at the far wall of the first room next to the garage. And the last two pictures are from the middle trap door looking toward the far wall. The steam pipe seems to end there and then turn to the left 90 degrees and then right 90 degrees to continue along the ceiling of the rest of the finished basement. Either that pipe or another drops down the wall before the first bend (where there is a vent). It felt warm most of the way down the wall.

Issue I now have is: how complicated would it be to run new returns in the ceiling of that finished basement room? It seems very tight in there. And could the piping be put back across the ceiling of the garage? And how would the return piping connect back into the wet return right above the boiler room floor, given the AC vent is now in the way (and wasn't there when the original above ground return was there). Thanks.

KC_Jones

Where do the pipes highlighted in red go? Those are certainly dry returns and then drop to wet returns.

JUGHNE

Are there two ceiling trapdoors with the air vents that have pipes like this that go down the wall like this?

I misunderstood the location of the other trapdoor. I was thinking they were both on the garage/basement common wall.

The little bump out across the room, if it has the drops, could give you access to the returns. They could be run under the finished ceiling near the wall and then into the garage. That could be boxed in a soffit just above the door. It could go towards the garage or towards the room with the AC .

Once these pipes can be run above the door to provide clearance, they can be dropped down to be on the floor.
If so then that pipe could be boxed in as soffits on the ceiling or "fat" baseboard boxes on the floor.

Fred

If they did it right, and I'm guessing they probably did, given the way they changed the returns, that both returns are tied together below the boiler water line and in that wall that has the wide bump-out, by that door and in front of one of your trap doors and that there is only one pipe buried below the floor leading back to your boiler room. If you don't see what looks like a trench repair in your garage floor, it probably is under the tiled floor in your finished basement. Those returns were probably buried for two reasons, one, to get them out of the way to finish the basement and two, to make room for the overhead garage door. Either that garage door originally were a set of swinging doors or, there was no garage and they cut one into the basement, probably around the same time they finished the basement. How does the perimeter of that overhead door look? Does it look like they may have cut through the exterior wall and added support over that opening to support the upper structure? Do the walls on either side of that overhead door look like the masonry has been cut? I'm also guessing that the basement was probably fully open, except for maybe the boiler room and what might have been a coal bin (given the house was built in 1935 it may have had gas from day one). Is there a stud and drywall wall that separates the finished portion of the basement from the unfinished portion?
In any case, if that wider bump out, near the door, in your picture, leads out into your unfinished basement and you find the returns tied together, behind that bump out, you could extend that bump out over to the door, either all the way up to the ceiling or as a half wall, abandon the buried return, tie into where the two returns come together and carry it back to the boiler. Just be sure that the new pipe stays below the water level of the boiler. I've made a lot of assumptions here. The first step is to cut a section out of the drywall in that bump out and see if the two returns are in that wall.