Trane Concealed Steam/Vapor Heat Problem -- Leak

Fred

There is nothing in there except mating metal surfaces that that large nut pulls together to a tight seal.

JUGHNE

Pretty hard to crack anything in a union.....on very rare occasions the threads of the nut itself might strip.
You would most likely have to have a 3' wrench on it for that to happen...don't worry. Just snug it up.
Worse case you replace the union.

LK

Just so I have it right -- I should be trying to move the big nut toward the left when looking straight at it? And, I should use 3 wrenches -- 1 on the big nut, 1 just above the big nut, 1 just below the big nut. Hold the one just above and the one just below steady, and move the big nut to the left. Thanks.

LK

So, unfortunately, put some WD40 on it, and banged a little with a hammer, and used three wrenches, and couldn't get the nut to budge -- and, instead, the leak is a lot worse. Not sure how that happened, but I assume this all loosened up whatever crud was around the edges of the top ledge of the large nut, that was keeping it sealed up. Any suggestions?

JUGHNE

I would use wrenches with longer handles.
Just on the big nut and the lower part.

I would also perhaps take it apart and clean the threads for the big nut mating part. Clean the union mating surfaces that do the actual water seal.
And maybe just replace the entire union with a good quality black union....not china.

You may have to get your plumber/pipe fitter back.....I know it is a little thing but he most likely got a good chunk of money from you already. He should come do the union replacement.
Not for free, but should show up. IMO

LK

@Jim_R I thought I was supposed to be turning the big nut to the left when facing it. Did I get that wrong? Thanks.

LK

Thanks. So, then, since the threaded part is above, I should be going to the Right, not the Left.

nicholas bonham-carter

Have a look at unions in the hardware store, and you will see how they fit together. If necessary, bring a union home, and play with so that understanding how it fits together becomes second nature. When you are finished with this then return it, or hang it on the tree.
If this fails, find someone who has done this before to assist.—NBC

nicholas bonham-carter

Mighty fine old wrenches there!--NBC

JUGHNE

I agree with NBC, go to the hardware store and buy a good (not china) 1" black union....if that is the size.....study it.
Hands on with visual observation is a good thing.

If no luck then get help.

LK

My steam heat just stopped working. Weil McLain boiler. I took the front cover off and video taped it (photos attached; trying to upload the video). There is a clicking sound when it is calling for heat, but flame does not start up. Could it be that I need to replace the Spark Ignition Control (the part that says Honeywell S861OU)? Or could it be the other Honeywell Part with the blue top (sticker says it is a valve)? These parts have not been replaced in at least 16 years, if ever). Thanks.

JUGHNE

Welcome back, LK!

The sequence of operation is to first open the vent damper if you have one;
then you should hear the buzz...buzz...buzz... of the spark igniter;
with that buzzing then the pilot valve should open....maybe a click sound.
Then the pilot flame must be established and proven.

So how far does your system go thru this?

LK

Is there any way I can send you the video? One of the steps you describe is not happening. It sounds like something is clicking open and then clicking closed. But then the flame is not going on.

Where would the vent damper be? I am not sure where that is, or how to open it.

Thanks for responding, and thanks for your help!

I was going to order the part Honeywell S861OU, but then I thought maybe the Valve is defective. And, I could not find the part number for the Valve.

Thanks.

JUGHNE

The vent damper is on the exhaust flue pipe just above the boiler. Send a picture of the boiler showing the exhaust piping from the boiler to the chimney.
You may not have one.

LK

I don't think I have one of those. I just looked and found the part number for the valve -- it is Honeywell VR8304M 3558. When I turn Off the Valve, the clicking noise stops. When I turn the valve back on, the clicking returns, but the flame does not go on. Does that indicate the Spark Ignition Control needs to be replaced, or does that indicate that the Valve needs to be replaced?

Also, if I replace the Valve, can I just replace the top part, with the new electronics, and leave the body that is already there in place (rather than unscrew the old body and screw in the new body)?

Thanks.

JUGHNE

LK, there are some very simple things that can cause your problem.
The parts you are considering will set you back a few $100 and possibly not needed.

To change the gas valve it is all one unit, must be unscrewed from piping etc.

Start with the picture, please.

JUGHNE

LK, I see your old pictures.
You do not have a vent damper in them.

Can you identify the spark igniter inside on the burners?
Shut off the power and gas with the valve mounted on the gas pipe.
You may have to remove a shroud over the burners.
If so then with the gas off, turn on the power and watch and listen for the buzz of the spark.

LK

Without turning the gas off, when I turn the electricity back on, There is a click and a long buzz, but no spark/flame.

To try what you suggested, how do I turn the gas off (can I do that by turning the blue knob on the Honeywell valve to Off. Or, should I do it on the gas pipe? If on the gas pipe, do O turn the knob clockwise or counterclockwise, and how far do I turn it. That knob is VERY DIFFICULT TO TURN.

Thanks.

JUGHNE

That "tee" handle on the gas pipe can be a PITA, it moves only 1/4 turn, usually takes a wrench. Might only go one way....there may be stop notches on the body. If you move it you should exercise it a little.

The spark has to be there for the pilot to light.

So it could be the pilot/burner/spark assembly.....or the ignition module.....or the gas valve.
Do you have a voltmeter and know how to use it?

Simple things I would do first is to check all the push on wire connections....with the power off of course.
Remove and replace them one at a time. Carefully wiggle back and forth to remove and then reinstall each. This has fixed many issues.

Is that a large wire behind the gas valve, might be the spark wire and could be frayed from rubbing?

LK

So, I took the spark module out from underneath to see if it was dirty. I wiped it off, then put it back. Then turned everything back on. I see the sparks, then I see the flame go on for a second, then it goes off. Then it does it again a few seconds later. So everything is working except the last step when the flame is supposed to fully go on. Does that indicate something specific -- perhaps either the Spark Ignition Control (S861OU) or the Pilot Gas Valve (VR8304M3558)? Thanks.

neilc

is there a separate flame sensor?
or is it part of the spark module?

JUGHNE

If looks like your spark igniter is also the flame sensor.
The module must see that there is flame before keeping the pilot on and also turning the main burner on.

Did you push/pull all the connections on the module?
The ground wire is critical for the flame sensor to see the fire.
Both ends of the two ground wires on the module must have good contact.
The igniter has to be clean and well into the flame to sense the fire. Clean with steel wool or Emory cloth. The insulator on it must be intact......and again good wire connections.

LK

Attached is picture of the spark igniter. I pushed in all the connections. Does the bottom part of the orange wire come off? I tried but couldn't get it off easily. I thought I would try to clean in there. Although, it looks pretty tight, so I doubt there is anything in there.

JUGHNE

The little rod in the center of the white insulator is the sparker and flame sensor. The hood above it is the grounded part.
Both need cleaned with a strip of emory cloth or sand paper as a last choice. Then finish up with a dollar bill folded 4 times length wise for clean up.
The red wire boot can be simply rotated a little and that usually will cut a new contact surface on enclosed connection.
The grounding may be established thru the pilot gas line or if another wire you need to clean that connection also.

One part you might consider having on hand would be the pilot/igniter assembly.

JUGHNE

Would the "Disagree" poster please elaborate?
I would not like to mislead anyone concerning gas controls.
Thank you.

LK

i have cleaned everything and checked all the wires. One thing I noticed, is that the Green Ground Wire goes from the Spark Ignition Controller to a metal receptor on the Pilot Gas Valve. I took it off and cleaned it. I tried to run everything with that Ground Wire off -- and for some reason, the Pilot Flame stays on LONGER when that Ground Wire is disconnected from the receptor -- than when I put it back on a try again.

At this point, I can see that the Pilot is sparking and Igniting. I am Proving a flame, but it stays on for only 1-2 seconds. Then it goes out.

Wouldn't this indicate either a problem with the Spark Ignition Control or the Pilot Gas Valve? In other words, perhaps the Spark Ignition Control is not recognizing there is a Flame, and not sending the signal to go the next step to keep the flame going to light everything. OR, perhaps the valve inside the Pilot Gas Valve is not opening, or is not opening enough to allow enough gas to go through to sustain enough flame?

I assume there is some gas going through, otherwise, I don't think it would be possible to have a flame for 1-2 seconds. So, maybe that rules out a faulty Pilot Gas Valve.

But then that means that the Spark Ignition Control would be faulty. That seems to be working for the first few steps. I don't know enough about what that part does to get the flame going for the entire boiler to know if that is what is faulty for the last step.

My Spark Ignition Control is supposed to spark for 90 seconds to get the pilot light going. It only has to spark for a few seconds before the pilot light starts (but the pilot light only stays on for 1-2 second). Not sure if that is helpful information.

JUGHNE

It is possible that your pilot burner is partially plugged and not providing enough electric current to maintain the flame sensor circuit.

The pilot will come apart for cleaning.
You may have to unplug the rubber boot from the bottom of the sensor/igniter. Turn and pull carefully.
Two wrenches, one on the lower nut to remove the tubing and another to hold the upper portion.
Then inside is the pilot orifice, very small thimble shaped cup about a 1/4" in diameter.....you may have to tap the burner to get it to fall out of the bottom.
Orifice will have 1 or 2 very small pin holes inside.
Use a very small needle to open holes but do not enlarge.

Then blow thru the pilot tube to insure it is open.
Clean the burner hood, especially the edges and be sure it is open also.

Has the rubber boot been charred by flame.....possibly coming from a small leak on the bottom of the pilot?
That can happen if the lower nut is not tightened.

LK

I just stuck a thin wire inside of the tube from the top, and that got it to work! Working for now. Hopefully that solved it. Thank so much for your help. REALLY APPRECIATE IT!!!

JUGHNE

You might consider that replacement pilot burner.
And your 2 year old posting has approached perhaps a record with 229 comments.

LK

To replace the pilot burner -- is that the tube and the apartus at the end? I think I might need that. Just now, the module was sparking for a really long time before it lit. I assume that means there is a blockage in the gas tube line. Do you agree? Thanks.

JUGHNE

The module will spark until it senses a flame.....maybe blockage.
If you can locate the install & operation manual for your boiler model number, either in your basement or on line, it would have a lot of helpful info. Maybe part numbers etc.
The pilot assembly is probably the burner and igniter/sensor in one unit.

LK

Hope everyone is staying safe. On my Weil McLain Natural Gas Steam Heat Boiler (EGH 95-PI, Series 2), I have a Honeywell Ignition Control Module that is defective (Model # S8610U-1003). The Intermittent Pilot Control (Gas Valve) is Honeywell VR8304M3558 and the Spark Igniter/Sensor is Model # 511-330-170. My question is: I have a new United Technologies Ignition Control Module (Model # 511-330-095). Should the United Technologies Control Module work with my system and the other parts. I installed it, and it is not lighting the boiler. It is sending a spark, and the pilot light is going on, but the full flame is not going on. One issue I noticed: The defective Honeywell Control Module has a spot labeled SENSE, that has a black wire connected to the Spade Connector at that spot. The other end of that black wire is connected directly to the circuit board of the Honeywell Control Module, just to the left of the SENSE spot. On the United Technologies Control Module, there is a spot labeled SENSE, but I have not connected anything to it, and it did not come with a black wire connected to the Spade Connector at that spot, and there is no black wire connected directly to the Circuit Board to the left of the SENSE spot. Any suggestions or insights would be much appreciated. I can upload photos of the old and new Control Modules, if helpful. Thanks in advance for your help.

LK

Picture of defective Honeywell Control Module (second picture) and new United Technologies Control Module (first picture) attached. 

Steamhead

It won't work on your system. The SENSE terminal on the UTEC control requires a separate flame sensor wire to connect- entirely separate from the ignition electrode.

So- wrong part for your boiler.

LK

Got it. Thanks for your quick response. Appreciate it.