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Trane Concealed Steam/Vapor Heat Problem -- Leak

LK
LK Member Posts: 102
I have an old steam/vapor heating system (“TRANE ORIFICE SYSTEM”) with Trane Concealed Convectors embedded in the walls from 1935 (the year my house was built) and a Weil McClain Boiler (Model EGH-95-PI).

I either have a leak above the water line or a deteriorated underground return or a leak somewhere else in my system. The automatic refiller is constantly adding water to my system. Yesterday, we turned on the heat for the first time this heating season, and the boiler added water when I first turned it on, then ran for 12 minutes, then added water, then ran for 6 minutes, then added more water, and so on. When I touched the top enclosure of the boiler, the half closest to me was not hot, but the back half was very hot (not sure if this was indicative of anything). When I go outside, I DO NOT see white smoke. I had this issue at the end of last winter, and did not see white smoke even when it was very cold. When I am in the Boiler Room, I do not see any water on the floor, or any water leaking down from the top part of the boiler onto the floor (as I imagine you might see if there was a hole above the water line). This morning, I had to manually add a ton of water (since the automatic refiller had reached its limit).

Last heating season, I tried skimming the boiler, since that had not been done for many years. This actually made the problem WORSE. After skimming the boiler, even more water was being added into the boiler each cycle (very confusing, maybe just coincidence).

I have gone around to each convector and to the place where there are four Gorton vents, and I do not hear anything unusual, making me think there is NOT a hole somewhere. I assume I would hear some type of hissing sound if steam was getting out, but I do not hear that. Similarly, I do not see any water stains or leaks anywhere in my house.

I think there might be an underground Return, but I am not sure. I am including a few pictures of the piping. I don’t think there is a Hartford Loop – not sure if that matters for my system. There is a pipe along the wall behind my boiler and under the exhaust that is very close to the floor (that I think is the Return), and has one place with a T that is imbedded in the concrete floor. That T gets hot to the touch when the heating system is on. I am not sure if that is because there is hot returned water going through there to the underground part of the Return, or because the T is attached to the rest of the pipe which gets hot (so the heat is maybe conducted down to the T). Is there a way to determine if I do, in fact, have an underground return that might have deteriorated such that it is leaking? I don’t see any water anywhere seeping, but maybe I wouldn’t.

Separately, does anyone know how difficult it is to abandon my steam system and install a boiler with hot water indirect coil systems connected to my current Central AC system. I already have a hot water zone off my current steam boiler for my basement heating zone, and I assume doing this for my first floor zone would be easy, since the air handler for the first floor is in the same basement boiler room. Not sure about how difficult it would be to pipe hot water up to the attic air handler for the 2nd floor.

I know I need a hire a Pro, but wanted to get a sense for what is going on before someone comes in.

Thanks!















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Comments

  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
    To check your boiler for leaks, turn it off, let it cool down, and add water until the pipes above the boiler feel cold. Let it sit for a couple of hours, and see if there is any water on the floor.
    If there are no visible leaks, then continue to observe the water level for another few hours. If it has dropped further, then the culprit must be the underground returns, which could be replaced by pipes a few inches above the floor.
    You could switch to hydro air coils in your a/c ducts, with a new boiler, but why not just restore the steam?—NBC
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    Thanks. Which pipes above the boiler are you referring to to feel cold -- is it the two big pipes that the steam normally travels through (in my pictures)? Also, how difficult is it to replace the underground returns? Our boiler room is next to our garage which is next to our finished basement.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    You have a under floor wet return. When this problem comes up a wet return is always the first place to start. Walk around on the floor with bare feet or socks on and see if you can find warm or hot concrete. Sometimes a cat or dog will find the warm spot to lye on.

    Where are you located? Use "find a contractor" on this site
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
    Yes, fill until the steam supplies above the boiler feel cold.—NBC
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    That house will never be comfortable in the winter if you abandon the steam system.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    1MatthiasSuperTech
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    It has been over 3 hours since I overfilled the boiler, and there is no water on the floor, and the water level in the sight glass has not gone down (it is still full all the way above the top). I have no clue where the under floor wet return comes back out. I would think that would be easy to see, but I can't since there are some pipes in my garage, but then the rest is concealed in the ceiling of my finished basement.

    Are any of you able to come to Westchester County NY to check this out for me (NBH, Steamhead, Ed)? I would certainly appreciate it. Thanks!
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
    edited October 2018
    Let it sit like that until the afternoon. If it doesn’t go down, then it may be a hidden steam leak, and not a water leak.
    Maybe you can make a layout drawing of the system, and post it here. Show the horizontal view as well.—NBC
    1Matthias
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    Would the water go down such that I could see the level in the sight glass? Otherwise, how would I know the water level, since I filled it above the top of the sight glass? If it is a hidden steam leak, how does one find that? Wouldn't there be damage to a wall or ceiling or floor from the steam leaking out? Not sure how to do a layout drawing. I posted a bunch of pictures. Can you tell anything from those? Should I take some pics from the ceiling of my garage, where there are a lot of pipes leading up to first floor convectors, and into the finished basement to go to the rest of the house (garage is below level next to basement). Thanks.
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,692
    if you've been flooded for a couple hours now,
    and there is no visible water under the boiler,
    then yeah, drain back down till it just shows a water line in the sight glass, then watch that for a couple hours to check that under ground wet return.
    known to beat dead horses
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,692
    one of your pictures looks like it shows a wet cinderblock joint by the underground,
    there is a supply line and valve there also,
    why or is that wet?
    known to beat dead horses
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,692
    and before you fire the boiler back up,
    set your water level down more,
    about 2/3rds sight glass, or the level you know.
    known to beat dead horses
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    I just checked. It looks like water, but it is some gook from many years ago. That joint is part of the pipe that pumps hot water to the indirect heat zone for the basement.

    Still have no idea what my issue is. Just lowered the water level to the top of the sight glass and letting it sit for several hours.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    Can you see all the piping for the hot water zone you have?
    It too could have some small leak not visible.
    It looks like you could isolate it with the yellow handle ball valves for testing. Just be sure the pump does not run while doing so.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    I never use that zone, since it is the basement, which is rarely used.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    Is it safe to take off half of the top blue enclosure and restart the boiler to check if any steam is coming out of a hole when the boiler is running? I took it off earlier when the boiler was over-filled/flooded, and did not see any water there, so I now doubt there is a hole. But, thought it might help to see if steam comes out of a hole when restarting the boiler.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    That basement zone is always full of your boiler water.
    Any leaks in it will drop the boiler water level, whether you use it or not.
    So if you isolate it with the valves, (and never allow the pump to run) , you eliminate that as your possible loss.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    I just checked, and the water level in the sight glass is going down, without the boiler on. I am going to check again in another 1-2 hours, since I last looked at it right after I had removed the water from the overflooding -- so maybe the water level was settling out. If the water level is going down by itself, I assume that mean the underground return has corroded. How complicated is it to replace underground returns with pipes a few inches above the floor -- as NBC suggested? Where would those replacement pipes go, if the current returns are under the floor of my garage, or under the floor of my basement? Thanks.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    Jughne: If I want to shut off the basement zone for now, would I shut the valve in Picture 11 that is coming off the boiler (through the thick pipe) or the valve just to the left of the red circulator pump, or the valve on the pipe right above that -- or all 3? Thanks.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    I just confirmed that the water level is continuing to go down in my sight glass -- meaning, I think, that I have a leak in my underground wet returns. So now the question is: How complicated is it to replace underground returns with pipes a few inches above the floor -- as NBC suggested? Where would those replacement pipes go, if the current returns are under the floor of my garage, or under the floor of my basement? Do these underground wet returns go the entire length of the house, and connect in multiple places to other pipes. I don't see any other place that the piping goes into the floor, except the one T next to my boiler. Wouldn't there have to be a place that the underground pipe comes back above ground? Could that be hidden behind a wall of my finished basement? Thanks.
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,692
    this is where you need to diagram what you can, the mains, rads, and their returns,
    and then determine where that underground needs to be repiped to the remaining, undiagrammed, radiators.
    even then,
    are you gonna do the work?
    or,
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/
    This needs correcting fast as all that makeup water is killing what's left of the boiler.
    known to beat dead horses
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    All 3 ball valves with the lever handles will eliminate the basement heat zone. The levers will turn only a 1/4 turn, that is 90 degrees to be perpendicular to the copper piping.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited October 2018
    Follow your Main(s) and/or dry returns (those above the boiler water line, probably near the height of the mains) to the end furthest away from the boiler. At that that far end you should find a vertical pipe that drops to below the floor. That should be the other end of where that wet return comes back up at your boiler. If you find it, then you can determine if you can install a new wet return just above the floor without adversely affecting your finished area and/or doorways. Since that is below the boiler water line, you may be able to carry the new pipe above the floor and then just cut into the concrete and drop it below the floor at doorways.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    Fred, thanks. When you say furthest away from the boiler, do you mean at the other end of my basement? If so, there is nothing visible, since that part of the basement is finished (and in between the boiler and the other side of the basement is a tiled floor). In my boiler room and garage (which is right next to the boiler room) the only place in either that has a pipe going into the concrete is the one right next to the boiler (in the picture). I tried to trace the line of that spot into my garage, and I cannot see another pipe coming out of the concrete. Going the other way, is completely in the finished part of my basement -- where I cannot see behind the walls.

    Are you located in the New York area by any chance?

    Thanks.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited October 2018
    LK said:

    Fred, thanks. When you say furthest away from the boiler, do you mean at the other end of my basement? If so, there is nothing visible, since that part of the basement is finished (and in between the boiler and the other side of the basement is a tiled floor). In my boiler room and garage (which is right next to the boiler room) the only place in either that has a pipe going into the concrete is the one right next to the boiler (in the picture). I tried to trace the line of that spot into my garage, and I cannot see another pipe coming out of the concrete. Going the other way, is completely in the finished part of my basement -- where I cannot see behind the walls.

    Are you located in the New York area by any chance?

    Thanks.

    NO, I'm in Ohio. Where a pipe comes out of the floor near your boiler, one has to go into the floor from either a main or a dry return. It has to be behind one of those finished walls, if you can't find it anywhere else. Does a main or dry return seem to stop at one of those finished walls (doesn't pass through to the other finished side of the basement)? Do you have a drop ceiling or is the ceiling also drywalled? If its a drop ceiling, you should be able to lift a panel out and look up into the cavity between the basement and the first floor joists. Do you have a temperature gun? You may be able to fire the boiler up and let it run for a few minutes and then check the temp along the finished walls and see if you find a spot where the temp is significantly warmer and vertical on the wall. That will be where the return likely drops to the floor.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    Unfortunately, it is a drywall ceiling. So, is this wet return just going from one place in the basement, then underground, and then popping up at a spot near the boiler? What is the point of that? Why not just use the dry returns to get all of the water back to the boiler? Is there a way to reconfigure an existing system to eliminate the wet return? Or, are there multiple places where returns dump into the wet underground return?

  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    I just went and felt around the basement walls and ceilings with my hands. I can track in the ceiling for the entire length of the basement in the front and back of the house. But, I only feel a warm wall in one place, that is directly below 2 of my Gorton vents, and on the other side of one of the walls of my garage. That is pretty close to the boiler room. But, doubt this is the only place that goes into the wet return?

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    There is typically one return per main on a Parallel flow system. On a two pipe system (one pipe that feeds each radiator, on one end of the radiator, with a valve and a second pipe on the opposite end of the radiator with a trap, you may have a separate Dry return. In any case, there will usually be a single vertical drop from either the main or the Dry return to the floor or below. That is then a wet return and it carries condensate back to the boiler. It doesn't seem reasonable to try to redesign your system to avoid opening small section of wall. Keep in mind the leak most likely isn't in the wall or you'd see signs of water. You just need to find the location where the pipe drops to the floor so that you can figure out how best to route the wet return back to the boiler. Try the Temp gun on the walls. You can see the route that your main(s) take from the unfinished part of the basement. Just follow that route to the walls and see if you can find a temp change from one area of the wall to an area where the return pipe drops to the floor.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    @LK , there are some great Steam Pros in the NY area, @Danny Scully , @JohnNY, maybe @EzzyT and others. If you can line one of them up, they can figure it out for you.
    Danny Scully
  • mikeg2015
    mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,194
    Downside of dry returns is they must be pitched all the way back to the boiler. This can be difficult, depending on the length of the runs. With a wet return you can run straight down then parallel so long as you stay under the water line.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    I just determined that my sight glass was clogged, so cleaned it out and filled the boiler to just below the top of the sight glass and let it sit for 3 hours, and the water level did not move at all. So maybe my wet return is not damaged? Did I test this properly? Last time I overflooded the boiler to check for leaks above the water line, then brought the water level down to the top of the sight glass and left it for 3 hours -- to see if leak in the return. Can the same test be done by raising the water level in the boiler from next to nothing to just below the top of the sight glass and letting it sit for 3 hours? Is there something about overflooding it first that needs to be done to check for leaks in the wet returns?

    The only place I hear any hissing in my entire system -- which might be the source of steam/water loss -- is at the spot where I have 3 Gorton #2s and 1 Hoffman #75 (two at each side of a 12 foot run of piping that is now enclosed in the ceiling of our finished basement, but at the only spot with trap doors in the ceiling). I am not sure if these are located on returns or on steam lines. These 4 vents were all replaced 9 years ago (and have not been touched since). Is it possible that I have water loss through these vents? If so, given I have gallons and gallons or water being refilled into my boiler every day, wouldn't there be water damage from so much steam/water escaping the system?

    Should I replace all 4 of these as a first step, to eliminate this as a potential issue?

    Thanks.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    Because of the Hartford Loop, your boiler water level could look stable but your UG returns could be leaking. That water would not flow out of the boiler back thru the HFL.

    Can you get any better shots of the HFL and the piping that leads up to it?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    @LK , do those vents hiss throughout the entire heating cycle or just during the first 3 or 4 minutes, while air is being pushed out of the mains? if they leak throughout the entire heating cycle, yes you will lose some water as a result but not gallons per day, as you say. There is a major leak somewhere and if it isn't obvious at the boiler or on the floor or at a wall, it has to be underground.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    I am adding more photos. Since the boiler is in the corner of a very small room, it is difficult to get good photos. I took some pictures of what I think might be the Hartford Loop (but I am not sure). Also tried to take a few photos from further away to show the near boiler piping. Do the photos show anything notable?

    The vents are hissing for more than just a few minutes.

    How would I know for sure if I have an underground leak? If there a way to snake a camera into the wet return (like they do to check for sewer line damage)?

    Thanks.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    Well, the near boiler piping is all wrong. There are no swing joints on the risers out of the boiler, into the header so as the header heats up it expands and puts stress on the boiler sections.
    The equalizer should be attached to the end of the header, after the riser to the main. It is currently coming off of what looks like the side of the Main.
    How old is the boiler and how noisy is it? Is there much banging or water hammer when it is steaming? If the boiler is old enough to be nearing the end of its life, it may make more sense to correct those issues when a new boiler is installed. If it is fairly new, get the piping corrected when you fix the leak in the condensate return.

    I suppose if you can get into that return, you can snake a camera in there but you already know you are losing a lot of water and it isn't from anywhere visible. It has to be from that return, under the floor. If you are going to pay someone snake a camera in to it, you might as well get a steam Pro in there and let him/her decide how best to find the other end on that return and how best to route a replacement return.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    Did you shut off the 3 valves with the yellow handles? Are you still losing water with them off?

    Assuming you did eliminate that being the water loser, then I would try this:

    Shut off the cold water feed.
    Connect a very short hose (like a washing machine hose) to the hose bib where the pipe comes out of the floor.
    Hold your end about 3 feet above the floor.
    Turn the water supply valve on and then open the manual feed bypass valve very slowly. (that is the valve that is usually closed).
    Fill until water comes out of your 3' high hose, you may have to drop it below the Hartford Loop tee which is on the right hand side of the boiler. Now shut off both valves.
    Now slowly lower the short hose until the water does not come out any more. Tie it in place somehow.
    Add water with the flower watering can until that hose is filled right to the top.....maybe some air bubbles will come out...keep it filled to the brim. Then watch it for a few hours. If that water level drops the water is going someplace under the floor.

    To help you visualize what we are doing, imagine you have a 50' length of garden hose. You tie one end up at perhaps 5'. The other end you tie up at 2'.
    You fill the hose with water up to the 2' end running over. (getting all air bubbles out).
    If the water level drops then the hose leaks somewhere.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    Fred: any chance you could do a quick labeled diagram of what my piping is on one side and how it should look on the other side. I am not exactly sure which of my pipes are the swing joints, risers, header, equalizer, and mains. Also, should there be any vents coming off of any of those? Right now, I only have vents further away from the boiler room (I think I have 2 on mains and 2 on returns). The boiler is about 17 years old, not noisy. We get a little water hammer upstairs in the walls (but no noise near the boiler). Thanks!

    Jughne: I will try that on Saturday. A few questions: 1) If I turn the boiler off, do I still need to shut off the cold water feed? I don't think the water is constantly flowing? 2) When I open the hose bib you referenced, will water come out of there? 3) When you say open the manual feed bypass -- is that the one I use to fill the boiler when the auto water feeder has reached its limit? 4) Not understanding the step about lowering the short hose until the water does not come out any more. Won't the water have stopped coming out already, since in the prior step you said to shut off both valves? Thanks!
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,170
    Fred said:

    @LK , there are some great Steam Pros in the NY area, @Danny Scully , @JohnNY, maybe @EzzyT and others. If you can line one of them up, they can figure it out for you.

    Please call one of these folks. They are all good (and there are some others) and can figure out where the problem is and fix it. Probably quite quickly. This won't be their first go around with this sort of thing.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    Jughne: When I do the test tomorrow, should I leave the yellow valves closed, or doesn't matter open or closed? Thanks.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    edited October 2018
    I would leave them closed. Are you still losing water with them closed?
    Leaking underfloor wet returns will not drop your sight glass level below the Hartford Loop tee connection....if the boiler is not running.

    You are trying to duplicate the 50' garden hose U tube full of water.
    You want to watch the water in the short end of the "hose" so to speak. If you get the hose secured at the level of it being ready to run over and the level drops, I would add water with the watering can a couple of times just to be sure the pipe is completely full and has no air pockets.
  • LK
    LK Member Posts: 102
    Yes, still losing water with those vents closed. Tomorrow, I am replacing the 4 Gorton vents, and trying your test. When installing the new vents, do you recommend Rectorseal or teflon tape, or both? Thanks.