Nest Thermostat & Outdoor Reset

rsteve06

A technician just installed IBC DC 20-125 boiler at my home. They suggested activating the outdoor reset, but that this would negate the role of my Nest 3rd generation thermostat. Should I let them go ahead and do this? What do they mean it negates the role of my nest thermostat? Obviously I just want to save $$$! Thanks for any input and guidance.

GW

I agree. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Both boiler and Nest would want to be the boss, any you might be left with a confused heating system.

Maybe call Nest and see what they say. I’d be curious to learn what they think. I would be surprised if the say “ahhh don’t install the outdoor reset function “. But maybe they will

Big Ed_4

Why would it ?

NY_Rob

The boilers ODR sensor will allow the boiler to change the supply water temperature used in your radiators based on the actual outdoor temperature.
You don't need 180F supply water to your radiators when it's 50F outdoors, you may only need 120F supply water. Once your supply water drops to 140F or below, your boiler will start condensing and it's efficiency goes up from there based on lowered return water temperatures.

With a modulating-condensing boiler you want the lowest possible water temp that will keep your house warm, that's what the outdoor reset sensor is used for.

It has nothing to do with your thermostat, as a matter of fact, the Nest is not especially useful for mod-con boilers.

Dave H_2

It may be a blessing, actually.
When you have ODR, thermostat setting changes take a longer time to respond and get to the desired setpoint. With Nest, it has a function that learns how long it takes to go from the setback temperature to the desired temperature.
Just don't setback the temperature too deep, it may not stay off for as long as a time as you'd expect.

Dave H.

Jamie Hall

Try it and report back. I have a hunch as to what will happen -- pretty wild overshoots and undershoots, as the Nest will always be thinking about the last time it tried this (with a different water temperature) but it would be an interesting experiment...

Ironman

Nest does not work well with modulating equipment. It's designed for bang bang (100% on, 100% off) equipment. Ditch the Nest, setup the ODR properly and you'll make the most efficient use of you're boiler and have the highest comfort.

Gordy

Actually when properly tuned, outdoor reset “negates” the role of any thermostat. The nest will not give you the benefits ODR can.

SuperTech

My personal opinion is that you should ditch the Nest thermostat, install a regular digital thermostat and keep set at the same temperature 24/7. Then you will be able to enjoy the benefits of the outdoor reset controller.

I've been on too many service calls related to the nest not working properly, I would be happy if I never saw another one.

mikeg2015

NEST is useful when you have oversized short cycling equipment that can setback quick. In the rare instance equipment is sized right or has ODR they provide little value and have lots of issues.

Summary, they make poorly installed and designed systems work better. They make good systems work worse.

Honeywell thermostats with adjustable cycles per hour are much much better.

NY_Rob

I finally ditched the digital t-stat on my downstairs zone (because I just keep it at 69F 24/7) and went with a $25 White Rodgers mechanical t-stat that has been working great w/the mod-con.
It's nice to have a t-stat that doesn't drop a degree and fire up the boiler when someone walks past it

HVACNUT

I think WiFi thermostats in general are a complete nuisance in the residential service industry.
45 degree day, set at 55, raise to 70 when they're 2 hours from home. Works great.
14 degree day, high winds. Set to 55, raise to 70 when 2 hours from home. 61 degrees 2 hours later. MY BOILER IS BROKEN!
Use the ODR.

Gsmith

@hvacnut, so true,...but, they do have a use in part year occupied homes (beach houses, lake houses) and allow the owner to monitor the operation and temperature from afar. For my own full year occupied house, I'd not want one.

Jamie Hall

Gary Smith said:

@hvacnut, so true,...but, they do have a use in part year occupied homes (beach houses, lake houses) and allow the owner to monitor the operation and temperature from afar. For my own full year occupied house, I'd not want one.

You do have a point, @Gary Smith -- but at the risk of tooting our own horn here, all they will tell you is that something is amiss. What they won't do is tell you that a window got broken in a storm... or that the oil/propane company can't get in because the drive isn't passable... or that the power is off... or that the mice are eating the Aubousson carpet in the great room... or.

And when the Nest tells you that your nest is in trouble, how do you get the trouble remedied? That's our job: to take care of your nest for you, and present it to you come spring or whatever in as good or better condition than you left it.

I agree that having someone (such as it might be me or my daughter) drop by daily to check on the place is more expensive. Or is it, really?

Dave H_2

People want this type of tech. Embrace it, teach your customers about what it does and what it doesn't do. If they are getting info about their home and not sure what it means and call someone in a panic before it freezes up and there is nothing wrong, its better to be safe than sorry.

Think about this, there are wifi stats coming out everywhere. Is it a fluke or something. People will easily drop $250 for a new thermostat when the old $15 one was working just fine. However when a circ goes down and it needs to be replaced, its alot of money at that moment and they want you to do it for less.

The two (stat and ODR) can work in harmony if everyone involved (contractor and homeowner) understands what to expect!

Now yes, I may be more than the average bear, wifi stats, ODR and also mixing valve reset....I knew exactly what to expect and how to use it.

So my point again, the "smart" thermostat is not going anywhere and growing stronger and stronger everyday. People want them, support them, show them, install them! Someone wants to give you money for your help, you should take it.

OK, rant over, nothing to see here.

Dave H.

NY_Rob

There are wireless/web t-stats that aren't "smart"... they're just regular programmable digital stats with wi-fi added. RobertShaw makes an add on wi-fi module for their 4000/5000/6000 series stats.

Big Ed_4

I do like that they come with an nice screw driver

Jamie Hall

I don't mind your rant a bit, @Dave H -- and you are quite right; people do want the tech. One sees that drive everywhere! Nothing wrong with a nice stovetop percolator, for instance, but for that fashionable coffee that won't do...

That said, there is a problem with the "there's something wrong with my house" and then call someone in a panic bit. Who do you call? Do you have an established relationship with someone or someones? Can they even get in without setting off the burglar alarms? Can they even get to the house at all? Not to mention that sometimes the problem is in the house is some way -- burner tripped out for some reason or you're on will call (or even automatic!) and the delivery didn't make it or something like that -- but sometimes it isn't, like an extended power failure (which will also take down your wifi gadgets) or a storm. Will you even know about it? Up our way, if you have a caretaker, she or he will get out the four wheel drive and snowshoes (or chainsaws!) or whatever works and get over there and take care of the problem -- we've done that. If you don't...

Gordy

Dave H said:

People want this type of tech. Embrace it, teach your customers about what it does and what it doesn't do. If they are getting info about their home and not sure what it means and call someone in a panic before it freezes up and there is nothing wrong, its better to be safe than sorry.

Think about this, there are wifi stats coming out everywhere. Is it a fluke or something. People will easily drop $250 for a new thermostat when the old $15 one was working just fine. However when a circ goes down and it needs to be replaced, its alot of money at that moment and they want you to do it for less.

The two (stat and ODR) can work in harmony if everyone involved (contractor and homeowner) understands what to expect!

Now yes, I may be more than the average bear, wifi stats, ODR and also mixing valve reset....I knew exactly what to expect and how to use it.

So my point again, the "smart" thermostat is not going anywhere and growing stronger and stronger everyday. People want them, support them, show them, install them! Someone wants to give you money for your help, you should take it.

OK, rant over, nothing to see here.

Dave H.

People want this kind of tech because they “think” it’s better because it costs more money, and they don’t understand what it does, and does not do. They just think it’s smart.

Push something else of better value for the dollars. Not garbage.
End of rant transmission......

DZoro

Nice to have the wifi controllability, understood. But as far as set backs with radiant, 95% efficiency and outdoor reset. That system doesn't need, want or should get help from a nest or any setback thermostat. It's a very smart system let it do its thing and the owners will be HAPPY!
Dennis

SuperJ

If you don't activate the outdoor reset, your ignoring a lot of the reasons for going with that nice IBC boiler. You may be able to incorporate the Nest as a simple demand signal. Not sure of your building, but have the stat start the pump/open the valve, and let the boiler's outdoor reset control the water temperature. To really maximize efficiencies you need to get your RWTs down.

nicholas bonham-carter

Most people with Boilers like that let the outdoor reset control everything with the thermostat as an upper limit, with no setback.
This is the most economical, as setbacks without ODR), under 24 hours, will run the burner at non condensing levels, using more fuel to recover the temperature. You will also need to set the temperature higher to feel comfortable, burning even more fuel.
It’s the same as driving your car on the interstate, where a constant speed is more fuel efficient, instead of speeding up, and slowing down constantly.
The Nest may be able to save a small amount of fuel with the old 80% gas furnaces, and a/c, but for any system with a modulating gas burner, it is only decorative, at a price!—NBC

HVACguyinME

i agree with Iron man. If you set up ODR properly you don’t need a nest. HOWEVER, if you really want the nest, then adjust your WWSD and design temps onthe boiler a little higher.

GW

Gordy said:

Dave H said:

People want this type of tech. Embrace it, teach your customers about what it does and what it doesn't do. If they are getting info about their home and not sure what it means and call someone in a panic before it freezes up and there is nothing wrong, its better to be safe than sorry.

Think about this, there are wifi stats coming out everywhere. Is it a fluke or something. People will easily drop $250 for a new thermostat when the old $15 one was working just fine. However when a circ goes down and it needs to be replaced, its alot of money at that moment and they want you to do it for less.

The two (stat and ODR) can work in harmony if everyone involved (contractor and homeowner) understands what to expect!

Now yes, I may be more than the average bear, wifi stats, ODR and also mixing valve reset....I knew exactly what to expect and how to use it.

So my point again, the "smart" thermostat is not going anywhere and growing stronger and stronger everyday. People want them, support them, show them, install them! Someone wants to give you money for your help, you should take it.

OK, rant over, nothing to see here.

Dave H.

People want this kind of tech because they “think” it’s better because it costs more money, and they don’t understand what it does, and does not do. They just think it’s smart.

Push something else of better value for the dollars. Not garbage.
End of rant transmission......

That's becasue our industry is quite good at mechanics and not so good at marketing. The Nest people can eat our lunch every day with that topic. We can try to fight city hall on this, but it's just the truth.

billyboy

I’m not a pro, just a teck type home owner/builder.

I’m now installing my 4th hydronic heating system. This is in my new house build in Zone 5

I bought a Nest2 for use in my last house (no A/C)
It did nothing useful for me, so I gave it to my daughter (HVAC zone 2)

Now she has 2 of them and they give her problems, change temperature on their own, change their own schedule, etc. etc.

ratio

FWIW, most of that functionality can be turned off. I did that to all 50+ that I installed on one commercial job (they matched the decor, you see. I'm sure it has nothing to do with trendy).

SuperTech

I have found that the Nest thermostat is probably the best thermostat on the market today for using for target practice. They are complete garbage in my opinion.

Canucker

Here's what I suggested my neighbor use to replace their malfunctioning Nest.
(They have to find their own, this one is mine and they can have it when they pry it from my warm, dead hands.) Right, @Jamie Hall ?

Jamie Hall

Right! And for @SuperTech -- the advantage there is they are suitable for any caliber...

kalex1114

SuperTech said:

I have found that the Nest thermostat is probably the best thermostat on the market today for using for target practice. They are complete garbage in my opinion.

And if you connect c wire to it then it will be backlit too

rtransom

I have an IBC boiler and want to use Nest as this is a second home in mtns.  I need to have eyes to make sure nothing freezes.  I installed a nest but there is no c wire at the boiler it appears.  Do I need the c wire or will the thermostat work anyway?   Any help is appreciated. 

Jamie Hall

In theory, in some circumstances, there appear to be ways to keep the Nest charged without the C wire. There are various workarounds which have been discussed here, and some in Nest's own literature. There are also available "wall wart" type converters which will power the Nest.

Results of these various approaches appear to be mixed. Sometimes it seems to work. Sometimes it seems not to at all. Sometimes it seems to work sometimes.

Note that these problems are common to any wi-fi connected thermostat, as they use a considerable amount of power for the connection.

If this is an essential feature, as it appears to be in your situation where you want a remote alarm function, I would use a great deal of caution in trying to use it without the C wire. I would also investigate some means of notifying you immediately if the power at the building fails. I'm not sure if -- and I'm having some trouble envisioning how -- the Nest or any such device would be able to notify you that it -- and by extensions, it's internet connection -- had lost power.

Ironman

rtransom said:

I have an IBC boiler and want to use Nest as this is a second home in mtns.  I need to have eyes to make sure nothing freezes.  I installed a nest but there is no c wire at the boiler it appears.  Do I need the c wire or will the thermostat work anyway?   Any help is appreciated. 

Putting glycol in the system would be much more reliable than trusting that piece of junk.

Jamie Hall

Of course, one could also pay one of the locals to come around and check the property from time to time... there's a lot to be said for that.

pecmsg

Jamie Hall said:

Of course, one could also pay one of the locals to come around and check the property from time to time... there's a lot to be said for that.

That also makes the response time so much faster 

motoguy128

For the cost of the NEST, you can almost pay for upgrade communicating equipment and communicating thermostat that allows WiFi along with full variable speed fan control, dehumidification on demand, display static pressures, fault history and other useful things. Plus you only need 4 wires and there’s no batteries.

pecmsg

motoguy128 said:

For the cost of the NEST, you can almost pay for upgrade communicating equipment and communicating thermostat that allows WiFi along with full variable speed fan control, dehumidification on demand, display static pressures, fault history and other useful things. Plus you only need 4 wires and there’s no batteries.

But how’s GOOGLE supposed to gather all the information they sell?

neilc

kalex1114 said:

SuperTech said:

I have found that the Nest thermostat is probably the best thermostat on the market today for using for target practice. They are complete garbage in my opinion.

And if you connect c wire to it then it will be backlit too

not if you're a good shot

Jamie Hall

Just use a suppressed .22 short so you don't wake the neighbours...

SuperTech

Nest makes for a good replacement hockey puck. But I think I like the idea of using them for target practice better. 

Lard

My thermostat Nest.  They WORK.

T87F is even new-in-box from a yard sale for $.05

Simple tech is best tech.