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Mod CON? Or Power vent 85%?

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  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    So getting ready, BUT The town of Brookhaven here on LI is a PIA with getting a permit. You would think I am building a new house. Wish me luck Monday morning. Once I get the permit, supplies will be ordered, and install to start soon after. Will post updates, and any questions I may have. Thanks for the help guys, been a real pleasure on here.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Suzook said:

    So getting ready, BUT The town of Brookhaven here on LI is a PIA with getting a permit. You would think I am building a new house. Wish me luck Monday morning. Once I get the permit, supplies will be ordered, and install to start soon after. Will post updates, and any questions I may have. Thanks for the help guys, been a real pleasure on here.

    Good luck!

    Suzook
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    Permit acquired!!! took me 4 hours, but I got it. On to ordering supplies.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    Looking for advice on ind Hw heater. My friend/plumber has told me he has run into slot of super stor failures the last year or so, and is pushing me away from it. We probably have high chlorides in the water. Would a glass lined be better?
  • gschallert
    gschallert Member Posts: 170
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    Suzook said:

    We probably have high chlorides in the water. Would a glass lined be better?

    The decision for me would be based on the chloride level in the water test results. SS tanks have water quality specs in the manual. That's what I would look at to see whether you need glass lined or not. Tanks can fail for so many reasons, leaks at the welds, galvanic corrosion, bad install .... I'd ask your friend whether all those super stor failures were identical and whether he had anything to do with the installs. ;-)

    I have a Bradford White PowerStor SS (RTV) made of titanium ferritic 444 stainless steel alloy not the usual 316L (austenitic) which is more susceptible to stress corrosion. It's rated for <100 ppm dissolved chlorides. I'd actually go tankless before I'd go back to glass lined and anode rods again. *shudder*
  • flat_twin
    flat_twin Member Posts: 350
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    Yes, have your water tested. I went with a glass lined indirect based on our own history. Our glass lined electric water heater was 23 years old and worked fine, no leaks, plenty of hot water. How much longer would it last? I didn't want to find out that bad so we replaced it just after our new mod con boiler was installed.
    Water tests by our municipal water company and independent tests showed our water was within spec for stainless tanks. But there were just enough stories about stainless tank weld failures from people who had similar chloride levels as us to make me think about glass lined. I'll let you know in a few years how it's going.

    ps
    The house has been our family a long time. Dad said the previous water heater was in service 26 years. 1968-1994. It wasn't broken or leaking either. In '94 the electric company had a special deal on water heaters that included a peak alert radio controlled shut off and a $10 discount every month. Looked like a good opportunity to replace an old heater.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    gschallert said:

    Suzook said:

    We probably have high chlorides in the water. Would a glass lined be better?

    Tanks can fail for so many reasons, leaks at the welds, galvanic corrosion, bad install .... I'd ask your friend whether all those super stor failures were identical and whether he had anything to do with the installs. ;-)

    Fortunately, he had nothing to do with the installs, LOL. He has replaced 6 SuperStors this year alone. All leaking from the tank, all from 5 to 7 years old. That seems VERY short for a tank.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    I would be inquiring as to reason of failure. Especially with same manufacturer. Same area? Same water supply? They should be wanting to know the cause.


  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    Same
    Gordy said:

    I would be inquiring as to reason of failure. Especially with same manufacturer. Same area? Same water supply? They should be wanting to know the cause.


    Same area, same water supply. I dont thing HTP cares, reports have been filed.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Well at least it was submitted. It's always good to put forth the effort keeping the manufacturer in the loop of product failures so. What they do with it is another matter.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    All supplies ordered. Went with a techtanium indirect. Glass lined, 40 gal. Will update when it's installed, and running.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    This thread is long... and I forgot; are you going with the HTP UFT-80W boiler or something else?
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited May 2017
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    NY_Rob said:

    This thread is long... and I forgot; are you going with the HTP UFT-80W boiler or something else?

    Yes, HTP Uft-80, and a techtanium tt40 ind hw heater, along with the pumps, and such you suggested. Supplies coming this week, Install starts this weekend. Just will be running gas pipe, mounting boiler, and possibly running intake/vent. Following weekend should be rest of install. Thanks for your advise!
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ Quite a coincidence... my install started the first weekend in June (of 2016) too due to a cold May on L.I. where we still needed heat for a prolonged period.

    I probably mentioned it earlier, but in case I didn't.... don't bother priming the internal condensate trap- it's time consuming and a pain in the butt to do. It will fill by it self in a couple of min upon initial firing anyway.

    My summer heating project this year will be replacing two 8' sections of fin-tube with cast iron baseboard to add some much needed thermal load to one isolated zone that cools off much faster than the rest of the house. I wish my whole house was cast iron baseboard, but it is what it is at this point.

    Good luck on the install next weekend- sounds like we're pretty close to each other if you need any help.
    Suzook
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    > @NY_Rob said:
    > ^ Quite a coincidence... my install started the first weekend in June (of 2016) too due to a cold May on L.I. where we still needed heat for a prolonged period.
    >
    > I probably mentioned it earlier, but in case I didn't.... don't bother priming the internal condensate trap- it's time consuming and a pain in the butt to do. It will fill by it self in a couple of min upon initial firing anyway.
    >
    > My summer heating project this year will be replacing two 8' sections of fin-tube with cast iron baseboard to add some much needed thermal load to one isolated zone that cools off much faster than the rest of the house. I wish my whole house was cast iron baseboard, but it is what it is at this point.
    >
    > Good luck on the install next weekend- sounds like we're pretty close to each other if you need any help.

    That's very nice of you. I will keep that in mind. My only issue at this point is getting the caleffi dirtmag. Plumbing supply does not carry it, and it's out of stock online. Will call supply house.com tomorrow to see when I can get it.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ Looks like the sweat version is in stock... you could always solder 1" male adapters on to it for use with a union...

    http://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-546196A-1-Sweat-5461-Series-DISCAL-DIRTMAG-Air-Dirt-Separator-with-Magnet
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^ wow, just came back in stock....I can get an 1 1/4 sweat version locally, can I use that with a reducer?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ why not... other than it's probably more expensive than the 1" version once you add the cost of the reducers.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited June 2017
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    NY_Rob said:

    ^ the problem with the factory diagram is that for five + months of the year (once you no longer need space heating) when you're using the boiler for just domestic hot water you are bypassing the dirt strainer and air remover. Fire tube mod-cons, well at least the HTP UFT-W80- by design creates micro-bubbles that constantly need to be removed. Bad idea to bypass the air/dirt strainer for five months and have no way to remove air and dirt from the system.

    If you make a slight modification... you'll run fine because all water will flow through the air/dirt strainer 24/7/365...



    @NY_Rob

    Starting project tomorrow, My buddy suggesting an expansion tank on the IHW heater, which I believe should be done. Thoughts??
    Thanks Again!

    BTW...I cant believe how small the boiler is! Its the size of a microwave.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,330
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    An expansion tank for the hot water is needed if there is a backflow preventer or check valve somewhere between your water supply connection and the water heater. If you are on a well you don't need one (there is already an expansion tank in the system to control the pump) or if there is no check valve or backflow preventer. However, it won't hurt to have one...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Potable water expansion tank on the DHW side of the Indirect?

    Only if you have a anti-reversing valve/backflow preventer on your domestic water feed into the home, otherwise it's not necessary.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Oh, keep in mind that when you take the rubber caps off the bottom boiler connections... about a cup or so of water will come out. I guess HTP test fires all the boilers.

    We got the water all over the carpet when uncrating our UFT.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    NY_Rob said:

    Oh, keep in mind that when you take the rubber caps off the bottom boiler connections... about a cup or so of water will come out. I guess HTP test fires all the boilers.

    We got the water all over the carpet when uncrating our UFT.

    LOL, A little late for that. No biggie, its in the garage.
    Gas pipe is all done, boiler mounted. Copper to follow next weekend! So no expansion tank on the hw htr??
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited June 2017
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    "So no expansion tank on the hw htr??"
    It will provide no benefit on the domestic water side if you're piped directly to the city water supply. It's only needed if you have some some sort of anti-reversing valve/backflow preventer on your domestic water feed into the home.
    And you already have an expansion tank on the CH loop side.

    Like where they placed the CH loop pressure gauge? You can almost read it if you lay on the ground under the boiler and turn over on your back... lol.
    Suzook
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^ The placement of that gauge is a joke!
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
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    NY_Rob said:

    "So no expansion tank on the hw htr??"
    It will provide no benefit on the domestic water side if you're piped directly to the city water supply. It's only needed if you have some some sort of anti-reversing valve/backflow preventer on your domestic water feed into the home.
    And you already have an expansion tank on the CH loop side.

    Like where they placed the CH loop pressure gauge? You can almost read it if you lay on the ground under the boiler and turn over on your back... lol.

    If you are on a public water system, there is a good chance that a back flow preventer is somewhere in the system. Or that one could be added some day. It could be in the meter yoke out in a pit in the yard. Check with your water supplier if you are on a city water supply.

    A DHW thermal expansion tank is not an expensive component to add in the installation.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    At the very least t in one with a valve.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Funny how people are willing to spend their money on one of the biggest bang for the buck units they can find, and then rip its design apart.

    Pressure gauges can be easily installed any where in the system. Make a pressure gauge even more useful, and install a t fore, and aft of the system circ with a valve on each t. Pipe the two ts together with a pressure gauge in the middle. Now you have a means of accurately determining system head, and finding gpm on the installed pump curve chart.
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    hot rod said:

    NY_Rob said:

    "So no expansion tank on the hw htr??"
    It will provide no benefit on the domestic water side if you're piped directly to the city water supply. It's only needed if you have some some sort of anti-reversing valve/backflow preventer on your domestic water feed into the home.
    And you already have an expansion tank on the CH loop side.

    Like where they placed the CH loop pressure gauge? You can almost read it if you lay on the ground under the boiler and turn over on your back... lol.

    If you are on a public water system, there is a good chance that a back flow preventer is somewhere in the system. Or that one could be added some day. It could be in the meter yoke out in a pit in the yard. Check with your water supplier if you are on a city water supply.

    A DHW thermal expansion tank is not an expensive component to add in the installation.
    My buddy(plumber) that is helping me insists on adding one to the ind hw, who am I to argue? So it will be installed. Old boiler was ripped out today, someone already took it from the curb.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Did the annual recommended maintenance on my UFT-80 yesterday.
    Found about 1/5 of a teaspoon of "grit" at the bottom of the condensate trap- overall it was still very clean. Flushed out the grit and re-installed it. Changed out the marble chips in the condensate neutralizer tube too.
    No leaks anywhere inside the cabinet.

    The manual recommends a HX flushing every 2-3yrs if water hardness is below 12 Grains/Gal... according to our water supplier's 2017 tests our local hardness is 3.9 Grains/Gal, so I'll flush next summer (2nd year of use).

    Very happy with the HTP UFT-80 after one full year in service.

    Suzook
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited June 2017
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    ^ Thats great to hear! So what is actually involved in the annual maintenance? BTW, HOLY COW on the caleffi 5461!! Its HUGE! I guess thats why its pricy.

    I dug up my slab with a jackhammer so i can extend the piping to the new location, all went well, nothing hit, but a few close calls.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    The 5461 is huge... but it works great!
    There is a function (34:AP) in the installer menu where you can run the CH and DHW pumps for up to 30min at a time without firing the boiler for the purpose of removing air from the system.

    Some of the annual maintenance depends on your supply water chemistry. If you go to the SCWA website you can access the 2017 Annual Water Quality report and look at the Hardness, TDS, etc... for your area.
    If you have "hard" water you are required to flush the HX every year as opposed to every 2-3 years for non-hard water.
    Other annual maintenance includes removing and flushing the internal condensate trap, replacing the limestone/marble chips in the condensate neutralizer (if installed), etc... there is a whole section in the manual devoted to annual maintenance. It takes about an hour or so if you don't have to flush out the HX.
    Suzook
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited June 2017
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    ^ I have an average of 3.7 gp/gal, guess i will be flushing every 2 years to be on the safe side. Nothing I cant handle.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ If you're in Area 15 like I am.... you'll be happy to know our TDS is pretty low too at 75ppm (actual measurement at my tap).

    Overall our water quality passes all the boiler and Indirect criteria for water chemistry. The only element that's even close to borderline level is Sodium at 16 mG/L and the max acceptable for the SS Ultra is 20 mG/L. All the other levels are well below max though.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^Yes I am in area 15. That's good news. BTW, based on the pic I posted of my mounted boiler, would you suggest all piping mounted to the right of it on the wall? My HW heater will be where it is standing in pic too. Appreciate the help.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited June 2017
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    ^ I can't say without seeing where you need to tie in with the zones and makeup water, but it looks pretty wide open at this point for future access to pumps, etc. Just don't bury any active components behind the indirect :o

    I'd address the intake and exhaust piping first as they are super critical on the MOD-CONS and then design the hydronic piping layout around them . Make the intake and exhaust piping as simple, straight and short as possible and route the copper/PEX CH loops, make up water, DHW loops, etc... around/behind/away from them.

    Although the PVC piping we use for intake and exhaust is up to local and manufacturer code... I've seen a slight discoloration on the outdoor section of my exhaust PVC (the intake pipe has not discolored at all) after just one year of use. Somehow I just don't see it holding up to 10-20 years of use, so the simpler and easier for access you make it the better off you may be down the line. I'm not concerned with the longevity of the OB Pex or copper on the hydronic side, but the PVC exhaust is something I'm keeping an eye on!
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^, OK, makes sense, my buddy and I were just saying we should do intake/exhaust 1st. I am using a concentric vent through the roof. I might be piping the Ind HW from top, as my loops, and water feed will be coming from below the unit. I dont want too much going on in front of the intake/exhaust.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    FWIW- I had some issues with air removal when I had the indirect supply not passing through the Caleffi 5461. I eventually re-piped so that spaceheating and the indirect share a common supply after the caleffi but the spaceheating still uses the top return connection and the indirect uses the bottom return connection.

    Around here you won't be using spaceheating for five months out of twelve. If your indirect supply isn't passing through the Caleffi you'll have no filtration, no magnetic particle removal and no air removal for five months out of twelve. The air vent at the top of the boiler is almost useless BTW. If you look at the parts diagram for the UFT... you'll instantly see why it doesn't work.

    Just something to consider....
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited June 2017
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    ^^
    Suzook said:

    NY_Rob said:

    ^ the problem with the factory diagram is that for five + months of the year (once you no longer need space heating) when you're using the boiler for just domestic hot water you are bypassing the dirt strainer and air remover. Fire tube mod-cons, well at least the HTP UFT-W80- by design creates micro-bubbles that constantly need to be removed. Bad idea to bypass the air/dirt strainer for five months and have no way to remove air and dirt from the system.

    If you make a slight modification... you'll run fine because all water will flow through the air/dirt strainer 24/7/365...




    OK, This was the diagram you posted....I am confused...Shouldn't the cw feed go through the dirtmag 1st??? Or am I not concerned about the feed, but what is in the system?

    EDIT>>> Ok, so I get it. The dirtmag replaces the "old school" air scoop??? We are not concerned about the makeup water, but the water in system? Correct?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Correct.. the Caleffi 5461 is a "Air & Dirt Separator with Magnet". It replaces a standard air vent, a wye strainer and it has a magnet to trap fine ferrous oxide particles (which a wye strainer can't do) too.
    As I understand it, a fine strainer is especially important in MOD-CONs and the magnet is important in systems with permanent magnet ECM pumps.

    To accomplish all this... your CH water has to pass through the Dirtmag. The problem w/the factory HTP diagram is that water only passes through the Dirtmag when the spacehating loop is active... which is only seven months out of the year. The other five months when you're only running the boiler for the indirect... the supply & return is bypassing the Dirtmag completely.

    Is it a big deal? Maybe. But it's very easy to ensure all your supply water always passes through the Dirtmag 100% of the time regardless if it's for spaceheating or for the indirect with a simple modification to the factory piping diagram.

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