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Mod CON? Or Power vent 85%?

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  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^ I am just gonna plumb in another dirtmag into the dhw loop, and be done. I was just wondering if anything bad can happen till then.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Run the heating loop while purging.

    If the air sep is higher than the boiler air rises to the highest point.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ that's how I got the air out of my system till I re-piped Gordy... ran both pumps at the same time.

    Remove the three power leads from the CH pump on the high-voltage terminal strip on the boiler- connect them to 110vac- the CH pump will run, then run the 34:AP from the control panel for pump #2 (DHW pump) and purge till it's quiet.

  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Suzook said:

    ^ I am just gonna plumb in another dirtmag into the dhw loop, and be done. I was just wondering if anything bad can happen till then.

    I don't think anyone can answer that, I would try to run the purge as Gordy suggested in the meanwhile asap.

  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^ I will give that a try, although with these temps, I might have to turn the heat on...lol.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited August 2017
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    ^ no need for a heating call....

    -Open your zone valves manually.
    -Remove the three power leads from the CH pump on the high-voltage terminal strip on the boiler- connect them to 110vac... the CH pump will start running.
    -From the control panel installer menu run function 34:AP for pump #2 (DHW pump) and purge till it's quiet.

    The idea is to run both loops concurrently and use the heat exchanger to mix the water from both loops together and push that mixed water through the air separator via the CH loop. The installer option allows for up to a 30min purge cycle... if that's not enough run it a second time.

  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Save your money on the dirt mag. Just purge whole system as @NY_Rob described. Once heating season starts your all set.

    Dawn dish soap can facilitate stubborn air, the dish soap contains surfactants that break surface tension of the pesky air bubbles. Just a little if need be.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^ Will give it a shot tomorrow evening. How do you get Dawn in the system, and is it harmful?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Let's see how first try goes first tomorrow.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^Will do.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited August 2017
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    Update...ran the purge with both pumps running. Did it multiple times. Reconnected everything, boiler fired up...ran a minute or so quiet, then came the air noise. It's much better but still has some air. Wondering if I should run both pumps, and the boiler on? Seems like when it's hot I get more air?? I could smack my buddy for not piping it like I asked but hey, it was free so I will have to deal with it. Suggestions??
    BTW, I do have a brand new air scoop sitting in a box, maybe installing that in the dhw zone will fix it?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited August 2017
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    As temperature increases there will be more air that will come out of solution. Yes fire up to operating temp let it run.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
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    I'd add another air separator to the indirect circuit. It is quite possible for that air to stay entrained in that DHW loop, in that drawing at least.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    hot rod said:

    I'd add another air separator to the indirect circuit. It is quite possible for that air to stay entrained in that DHW loop, in that drawing at least.

    I have a brand new "old school" air scoop and air eliminator sitting in the box. Think I should use that? Or invest in something else?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Instead of adding parts... a quick repipe will permanently "fix" the situation.... (excuse my crude drawing skill):


  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited August 2017
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    ^ Wow, that makes it easy! Thanks. Wlll talk to my buddy and do that! Btw, drawing looks great...lol.
    I need a way to clean hx. Thinking a shut off and boiler drain in that line too. Thoughts?
    Looking at my setup. I may have an issue reusing the dirtmag. It's a sweat joint, with little to no copper to resweat.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited August 2017
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    Suzook said:

    I need a way to clean hx. Thinking a shut off and boiler drain in that line too. Thoughts?

    Use the now abandoned bottom supply output- install a shutoff valve with a garden hose thread use the upper right return that already has a garden hose thread on it.
    Instant HX flush circuit and boiler drain....
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Suzook said:

    Looking at my setup. I may have an issue reusing the dirtmag. It's a sweat joint, with little to no copper to resweat.

    An experienced plumber won't have a problem reusing it... not an issue, just a little more work to clean up the fittings.



  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    I stand by the fact one properly placed air removal device is needed. Plenty of installs with that boiler using top, and bottom ports with domestic hot water with out air issues, and one air sep. proper purging is key. Think like air, and water.
    Rich_49
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    Gordy said:

    I stand by the fact one properly placed air removal device is needed. Plenty of installs with that boiler using top, and bottom ports with domestic hot water with out air issues, and one air sep. proper purging is key. Think like air, and water.

    Ok, so is my install incorrect? Will air flow through the pump??? I'm assuming not, so maybe that's my problem?
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    BTW, you can run both pumps at the same time using the purge function. No need to disconnect one, and apply voltage. I still can't get this damn air out of the dhw zone though!!!Grrrr.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Purge using highest pump speeds if you're not already doing that. All zone valves locked open too.

    What is your GPM and Watts reading from the Alpha?
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^Didnt pay attention to gpm and watts. I did notice getting a little purge of air when I kick the alpha down from high speed. Almost seems like the air is getting stuck before the alpha??
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    You should see anywhere from 3-6 GPM flow through the alpha on speed III with all the zone valves locked open. If you see 0/1 GPM it's airbound.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^, getting those kinds of gpm.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    I'm out of ideas other than repiping so the Indirect water loop passes through the DirtMag.

    FWIW- I can vouch for the effectiveness of the Dirtmag as an air separator. Last Sunday I removed the top from my Dirtmag to clean the float and float chamber. Of course that left a lot of air in the system after emptying the water from the DirtMag and all pipes higher than the DirtMag. After refilling the system and running the pump-purge cycle there was no air left in the DHW loop after 5min or less. The DirtMag is an excellent air separator.

    The whole issue here is your DHW loop is not running through the air separator so the air is not being removed.
    Also, keep in mind that by running both pumps at the same time trying to use the HX as a "mixer" to remove the air may work for cold water... but as soon as you heat the DHW loop to 180F again the entrained air will separate again and form bubbles. It's a losing battle at this point IMO.

    Since the "mixing/two pump" idea didn't work as desired, you have really only two options left- add a second air separator to your system (specifically in the DHW loop) or repipe what you have so both spaceheating and DHW loops pass through the DIrtMag.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    Well I'm just buying another dirtmag and piping into the dhw loop. I'm done. Quick and easy fix. My only thought though is the dirtmag will be lower than the hx. Problem?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    It won't be a problem... mine is set below the HX and it works great as an air separator.

    You may want to consider getting one w/thread vs. sweat connections and pipe in it with a brass union on ether side.... just for future convenience.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    Ok, thanks. Will do.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    So I have not repiped my system yet, but have just thought of something. There is NO way for air to get purged on my DHW zone, as there is a check valve on the grundfos. Air cannot pass through the pump, then to the Dirtmag, as it is set up currently. Will repipe as NY_Rob has suggested.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    If you have any close quarters soldering to do... I just bought a full bottle of Cool Gel... you're welcome to it if you'd like to use it.
    Suzook
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    NY_Rob said:

    If you have any close quarters soldering to do... I just bought a full bottle of Cool Gel... you're welcome to it if you'd like to use it.

    That's much appreciated! I think I should be fine. A little side note...Nat Grid being idiots about all my conversion rebates. Many calls, and explanations to the "experts" to approve my rebates.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Nat. Grid and PSEG are both terrible to deal with regarding rebates.
    I didn't even bother applying for the rebate on my three Z-Wave thermostats. It just wasn't worth the aggravation of dealing with Nat. Grid for $75.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    Quick question @NY_Rob. Before i redo piping for air eliminator. I am thinking for the future with HX flushing. Since boiler has 2 inputs, and outputs. If I have access to lower in and out, and want to flush HX, wouldn't the top In and out need to be closed off???? BTW, didn't need the analyzer, thanks.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited September 2017
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    ^ as long as there's at least one shutoff valve in the spaceheating loop and one in the DHW loop and you close them- it won't circulate when you flush. No need to close off supply and return- you can use one or the other if you don't have valves on both.

    ...but, if you're going to repipe, it's nice to have iso valves on all four ports of the UFT... makes future service much simpler.
    When I replaced my fin-tube with cast iron and Heating Edge this summer- both times I simply closed the spaceheating iso valves and was still able to use the boiler for DHW. The opposite would be true as well, if you had a problem with the Indirect or pump... you could isolate it and still have spaceheating active (during the winter).
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited October 2017
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    Installed an air eliminator in dhw loop, and it's quiet now. Get an occasional blip, but overall quiet. Had to use heat other day, and that had some air too, but the dirtmag took care of that. Guess this thread has run it's course, thanks everyone, especially NY_Rob for all the help!
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Glad you got it done!

    Re the occasional "blip" sound...
    I still hear that from time to time on my UFT-80W just before the end of the DWH call shutoff when the supply water is nearing 180F. I describe it as a single quick "perk" as in the sound a percolator coffee maker emits when it's brewing.
    Others with the same boiler have also heard this sound on their systems. I think it's normal with this fire-tube boiler- and the fact that the spaceheating loop water is never heated above 150F makes "cooking" the entrained air out of the loop water even slower.
    That's my theory anyway :)
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited October 2017
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    OK, So i am back. LOL. Not sure if I should keep this thread going, or make a new one. I understand a mod con should not short cycle, but this morning at 330 am, I turned on my heat. It was 63 in the house. It is now 630, and its only 65, and climbing. Is this normal? I know the wife is not gonna like being able to bump up the temp a few degrees quickly, and I am not so crazy about it either.

    EDIT. Looking at the manual, maybe I should use the Boost function?? I think thats what that is for. NO?
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
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    Yes, the boost kicks in after a certain time you set if it has not met the heat call
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
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    ^Thanks. Will give that a shot. Wife not happy this morning! I guess. I will readjust my setbacks too. We like it a bit cool at night though. Sounds like the boost function should help this.

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