Mod CON? Or Power vent 85%?

Solid_Fuel_Man

Lol, I'm installing a mod-con this summer to replace my backup source of heat (Toyotomi oil miser 180). Propane has no shelf life and I already use it for cooking and clothes drying. The oil I'm burning is from 2010. I've sold my whole oil setup and just getting rid of it.

I burn wood almost exclusively in a fire tube downdraft wood gassifier for heat and DHW.
My entire system is designed for low temp water, but propane was a monopoly when I built so I went with oil. Now things have changed and I hold licences and know some people. Buying my own propane tanks as well.

ChrisJ

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Lol, I'm installing a mod-con this summer to replace my backup source of heat (Toyotomi oil miser 180). Propane has no shelf life and I already use it for cooking and clothes drying. The oil I'm burning is from 2010. I've sold my whole oil setup and just getting rid of it.



I burn wood almost exclusively in a fire tube downdraft wood gassifier for heat and DHW.

The guy that made my return and supply plenums would love to talk to you. He built an outside HW boiler that heats his domestic hot water and runs hot water coils in his furnaces.

He's been talking about building a gassifier for years now.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Not wanting to sidetrack this thread, I really should post pics of my personal setup in the biomass thread. I'd love to talk shop about burning wood efficiently!

ChrisJ

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Not wanting to sidetrack this thread, I really should post pics of my personal setup in the biomass thread. I'd love to talk shop about burning wood efficiently!

Yes, you should.
And I agree, we kind of got things off track.

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

@Gordy Not sure if you're talking about me when you say "what gets me is that some say I'll only save 100 dollars a year. Now think of it collectively city wide, state wide, country, world wide. That's not peanuts. Every little bit adds up to huge energy savings in the big picture."


Sure, it adds up when a few million people do it, but those other people aren't responsible for putting food on my table. You had an argument with me that I should dump X amount into my house which would take me 111 years to ROI and I told you that wasn't practical.

It still isn't.

Actually no I was not Chris.

Suzook

Suzook said:

Gordy said:

Suzook said:

NY_Rob said:

^ the problem with the factory diagram is that for five + months of the year (once you no longer need space heating) when you're using the boiler for just domestic hot water you are bypassing the dirt strainer and air remover. Fire tube mod-cons, well at least the HTP UFT-W80- by design creates micro-bubbles that constantly need to be removed. Bad idea to bypass the air/dirt strainer for five months and have no way to remove air and dirt from the system.

If you make a slight modification... you'll run fine because all water will flow through the air/dirt strainer 24/7/365...

NY_Rob said:

^ With the above diagram- be sure to install the flow check valves in the pumps!

As Gordy mentioned... keep the CH pump in CP mode.

Great info!! Since I only have 2 zones, would I be better off with 2 circ pumps instead of the zone valves? It's a few bucks more,but not much. I could also get rid of the diff pressure bypass valve.

The whole idea of using an ecm circ that has a constant pressure capability delta p is to eliminate the differential bypass. So using the alpha, or viridian no you do not need that DBV.

So I can eliminate the DBV?

NY_Rob said:

Suzook said:

...Since I only have 2 zones, would I be better off with 2 circ pumps instead of the zone valves? It's a few bucks more,but not much. I could also get rid of the diff pressure bypass valve.

My zones were fairly close in loop length, so the Alpha in CP mode worked out for me.

I don't recall seeing your actual loop lengths (not the fin tube lengths)?
If you go with zone valves and one pump, you may have to throttle the short zone a bit with a globe valve if that zone has a much lower head figure than your long zone. You don't want the short zone flowing 3gpm and the long zone flowing 1gpm when both zones are active.

I never stated length. The second less BTU zone is just about the same length, and is feeding the second floor. Just trying to figure out is 2 pumps is better for me, or 1pump and 2zone valves.

Seems like thread got off track....Input on my last 2 questions?

Gordy

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

That $100 a year mentality is why there are some who would like to see US fuel prices to skyrocket. Therefore giving incentive to conserve. I don't agree with that line of thinking at all, but as stated before I want as many of those btu's input to the system to be delivered into the building envelope. We all know the heat plant is just one piece of that equation.



I have an "efficient" direct vent sealed combustion Toyotomi oil boiler specifically made to be DV. And I will tell you that even with a 130 degree water temp my hand stays nice and warm when I'm outside the house with my hand above that exhaust opening. And that's with a restrictive 2 stage combustion fan and 3" flue concentric vent. I built the control to run my radiant at the end of any call for heat until the boiler reaches 90 degrees. All with 8 pin ice cube relays and aquastats. Basically ano Energy Kenetics heat purge.

Taylor my line of thinking is not in wishing fuel prices would sky rocket so people will be forced to conserve. More like conserving so fuel prices don't sky rocket. More so we do live in a world with a finite quanity of fossil fuels. So not conserving now because we will be dead, and gone for future generations to have to worry about it is pretty narrow minded.

The narrow minded comes from government agencies who just like to let things go as they are with little reasonable cash incentive to move the majority of the population in a conservative direction.

Funny how when fuel oil goes to 4 bucks a gallon, and propane to 3 bucks, ng to 1.50 the people start inquiring about a more efficient approach to heat their home. The first ones to moan are the ones who could careless when fuel was cheap..........

NY_Rob

Suzook said:

I never stated (zone) length. The second less BTU zone is just about the same length, and is feeding the second floor. Just trying to figure out is 2 pumps is better for me, or 1pump and 2 zone valves.

No real advantage to using two pumps, the DP pumps automatically maintain flow rate regardless of zone valves opening and closing.

I keep my Alpha on Constant Pressure setting II (pump range is I-III). If any one zone opens I see 2gpm through the Alpha, any two zones open I see 4gpm through the Alpha, if all three zones are open I see 6gpm through the Alpha.

If one of your zones has a head value much lower than your other zone(s) you can always throttle that zone with a inexpensive globe valve.

FWIW- the HTP UFT can only control one spaceheating pump, if you want multiple CH pumps... you'll have to add a zone control panel at additional cost.

Suzook

> @NY_Rob said:
> I never stated (zone) length. The second less BTU zone is just about the same length, and is feeding the second floor. Just trying to figure out is 2 pumps is better for me, or 1pump and 2 zone valves.
>
> No real advantage to using two pumps, the DP pumps automatically maintain flow rate regardless of zone valves opening and closing.
>
> I keep my Alpha on Constant Pressure setting II (pump range is I-III). If any one zone opens I see 2gpm through the Alpha, any two zones open I see 4gpm through the Alpha, if all three zones are open I see 6gpm through the Alpha.
>
> If one of your zones has a head value much lower than your other zone(s) you can always throttle that zone with a inexpensive globe valve.
>
> FWIW- the HTP UFT can only control one spaceheating pump, if you want multiple CH pumps... you'll have to add a zone control panel at additional cost.

Zone valves it is! Thanks.

NY_Rob

I can post a simple wiring diagram so the t-stats control the zone valves directly if you'd like...

Suzook

> @NY_Rob said:
> I can post a simple wiring diagram so the t-stats control the zone valves directly if you'd like...

That would be much appreciated!

NY_Rob

This is for modern T-stats that need a "C" wire for power.
If you have old 2-wire T-stat's... just don't connect the blue "C" wire to the t-stat- connect it directly to the ZV motor connection.

Now the T-stats will operate the zone valves directly, their end switches will activate the boiler.

Just remember to set the "CH pump Post Purge" time to 0min in the boiler installer menu since the zone valve will close once the T-stat is satisfied. The old firmware used to deadhead the CH pump for one min as it had no option for 0 min post purge- the new firmware corrected that oversite.

Suzook

Thanks for that. Hopefully my boiler will have the new fw. If not, it sounds like a simple swap of mainboard.

NY_Rob

AFAIK- the last FW update for the UFT series was summer 2016, so your boiler should have the current FW on it.... hopefully

CMadatMe

ChrisJ said:

@Gordy Not sure if you're talking about me when you say "what gets me is that some say I'll only save 100 dollars a year. Now think of it collectively city wide, state wide, country, world wide. That's not peanuts. Every little bit adds up to huge energy savings in the big picture."


Sure, it adds up when a few million people do it, but those other people aren't responsible for putting food on my table. You had an argument with me that I should dump X amount into my house which would take me 111 years to ROI and I told you that wasn't practical.

It still isn't.

What's the ROI on the gas/maintenance hog in the driveway? I only ask b/c I find it hypocritical that our industry is set to a different standard. What's the ROI on your A/C, how about Washer/Dryer. Heck how about that Smart Phone?

CMadatMe

I get a kick out of this debate. Think we're going on about 10 years now and debating the same exact things. Until you all start installing BTU meters and collect the data on your installs its an endless debate.

ChrisJ

Chris said:

ChrisJ said:

@Gordy Not sure if you're talking about me when you say "what gets me is that some say I'll only save 100 dollars a year. Now think of it collectively city wide, state wide, country, world wide. That's not peanuts. Every little bit adds up to huge energy savings in the big picture."


Sure, it adds up when a few million people do it, but those other people aren't responsible for putting food on my table. You had an argument with me that I should dump X amount into my house which would take me 111 years to ROI and I told you that wasn't practical.

It still isn't.

What's the ROI on the gas/maintenance hog in the driveway? I only ask b/c I find it hypocritical that our industry is set to a different standard. What's the ROI on your A/C, how about Washer/Dryer. Heck how about that Smart Phone?

The ROI on the gas/maintenance hog in my driveway?
That's a tool that gets me to and from work every day averaging 41MPG and I'm currently at 101,000 miles on the original brakes. The ROI happened the first 6 months I owned it, technically. If you're attempting to accuse me of driving an expensive car, you're dead wrong.

Btu meter? I have an Ecosteam that shows me my BTU loss. I have plenty of data. Likely, more than most.

If you'd like to argue this, let's do it in PM instead of tying up @Suzook 's thread. He already told everyone to cut it out and he asked nicely. For some reason you and Gordy kept going.

BTW @Chris Thanks for the disagree.

ChrisJ

@Suzook I am genuinely sorry about this.

What were your last questions?

Suzook

ChrisJ said:

@Suzook I am genuinely sorry about this.

What were your last questions?

It's ok. NY_Rob has answered them.

NY_Rob

It seems that all that's left to review is condensate collection/disposal...

Suzook

> @NY_Rob said:
> It seems that all that's left to review is condensate collection/disposal...

Yes, shouldn't be a big deal....Just a pump, and pump it right through the wall out to the side of the house. Just waiting for Nat grid to run the line and meter to my house. Supposed to be in a week, but I'm thinking more likely gonna be a month.

Edit....Can I just plumb PVC out of the bottom of boiler right out of house? No pump should be needed with a a pitch... Correct?

JUGHNE

Condensing boilers produce water in dribbles, where I live those dribbles will eventually freeze and plug the pipe.

If you use the pump the dribble turns into a quick pee. Not as likely to freeze. When I have had to pump outside (no drain), I run the pump discharge tubing up and angle out thru the wall so as to get a good draindown after pump shuts off. The water may discolor painted surfaces or almost kill small plants.

Jean-David Beyer

The copper tubing in my slab is now 67 years old, and does not leak. (Measured by turning off the make-up supply -- I have a low water shutoff) When I shut off the cold water make-up for a month, the pressure does not drop. I am almost 79, so I hope the tubing outlasts me.. (10 years ago, I had to replace the roof, and hat 40 year shingles installed.

Upstairs is oversize baseboard. Downstairs is the copper tubing in the slab. If it leaks, I am not sure if I would put radiant panels on the walls or on the ceilings. Probably on the ceilings because the walls are entirely covered with bookshelves, etc. There is really no room for baseboards downstairs, and I would need hotter water in them if I had them, than what now goes into the slab.

Suzook

JUGHNE said:

Condensing boilers produce water in dribbles, where I live those dribbles will eventually freeze and plug the pipe.

If you use the pump the dribble turns into a quick pee. Not as likely to freeze. When I have had to pump outside (no drain), I run the pump discharge tubing up and angle out thru the wall so as to get a good draindown after pump shuts off. The water may discolor painted surfaces or almost kill small plants.

Maybe I will just drill a 3 inch hole through the slab, and drain it into that.

ChrisJ

Suzook said:

JUGHNE said:

Condensing boilers produce water in dribbles, where I live those dribbles will eventually freeze and plug the pipe.

If you use the pump the dribble turns into a quick pee. Not as likely to freeze. When I have had to pump outside (no drain), I run the pump discharge tubing up and angle out thru the wall so as to get a good draindown after pump shuts off. The water may discolor painted surfaces or almost kill small plants.

Maybe I will just drill a 3 inch hole through the slab, and drain it into that.

I'm pretty sure this is against code in most places if not all.

Suzook

ChrisJ said:

Suzook said:

JUGHNE said:

Condensing boilers produce water in dribbles, where I live those dribbles will eventually freeze and plug the pipe.

If you use the pump the dribble turns into a quick pee. Not as likely to freeze. When I have had to pump outside (no drain), I run the pump discharge tubing up and angle out thru the wall so as to get a good draindown after pump shuts off. The water may discolor painted surfaces or almost kill small plants.

Maybe I will just drill a 3 inch hole through the slab, and drain it into that.

I'm pretty sure this is against code in most places if not all.

Didn't realize I could dump it in a drain. I have my laundry drain on the other side of the wall I will be mounting boiler. I will just route the drain to that.

NY_Rob

Any setup that ends with condensate running into a metal pipe needs a condensate neutralizer device installed before the condensate touches the metal pipe. The condensate is pretty caustic and will eat through the metal piping in short order.

Once you purchase the neutralizer device, a $4 bag of mini-marble chips from HD/Lowes will probably last 5 years or more.

Suzook

It's PVC drain into a septic

ChrisJ

That picture was for air conditioning condensate.

I have a feeling the discharge from a boiler may be different, I don't know? Different as in, is it really safe to run into a septic tank?

I just knew it couldn't be run under the slab.

Gordy

Condensate neutralizer is a must.

Suzook

I could just drain it in the soil outside the house. I have an azella bush that would love the acid.

Jamie Hall

Suzook said:

I could just drain it in the soil outside the house. I have an azella bush that would love the acid.

Not that much acid it wouldn't. But a condensate neutralizer tank is easy to make, and has been said a bag of marble landscape chips will last a long long time in that application.

Suzook

Here it is!! Now its time to order the material!

NY_Rob

Perfect timing too!
Finally seeing temps where the boiler is off pretty much all day and most of the night.

Best of luck on the install!

Suzook

NY_Rob said:

Perfect timing too!
Finally seeing temps where the boiler is off pretty much all day and most of the night.

Best of luck on the install!

Yea, not too concerned with the heat, but will probably be without HW for a couple of days. Its a bit difficult to schedule final inspection, and actual turn up of gas to new equipment.

NY_Rob

No worries... neighbors love it when you ask to use their shower

Suzook

NY_Rob said:

No worries... neighbors love it when you ask to use their shower

LOL, Yea, its my Friend/plumbers house I will be using. Im ok with it, my wife not so much

ChrisJ

Suzook said:

NY_Rob said:

No worries... neighbors love it when you ask to use their shower

LOL, Yea, its my Friend/plumbers house I will be using. Im ok with it, my wife not so much

rbeck

The US Boiler Sage Zone control is a great adder to your system if zoned it will still only tune down to the minimum input of the boiler so the 80k will still turn down to 16k. The control does hold to lower input rates and the boiler may never fire to maximum input dependent on programing, it will assist in reducing short cycling but will not eliminate it. If you add Sage2,2 control features it also helps reduce short cycling but again 16k is 16k.
When we talk about short cycling does not affect the boiler just electronic and mechanical parts. The over all fuel savings is controlling the firing rate better over the entire time the boiler is firing both higher input and lower input.

Gordy

rbeck said:

The US Boiler Sage Zone control is a great adder to your system if zoned it will still only tune down to the minimum input of the boiler so the 80k will still turn down to 16k. The control does hold to lower input rates and the boiler may never fire to maximum input dependent on programing, it will assist in reducing short cycling but will not eliminate it. If you add Sage2,2 control features it also helps reduce short cycling but again 16k is 16k.
When we talk about short cycling does not affect the boiler just electronic and mechanical parts. The over all fuel savings is controlling the firing rate better over the entire time the boiler is firing both higher input and lower input.

The uft 80 has a 10:1 tdr so it will go down to 8k gross input.

An HX can suffer over time from short cycling. Expanding, and contracting many more times than necessary.