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Mod CON? Or Power vent 85%?

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Comments

  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    > @Gordy said:
    > Just remember you get what you pay for. There is a reason why other units cost more. Even with in their own brand name. Usually that is in the control capabilities.
    >
    > For the price point the uft is a nice option. Remember that fintube does not have much mass. Which means quick emitter heat up. Which means elevated return temps, and shut down on HL. Even with 8k low end you can expect cycling on milder heating days. The step modulation, and modulation down firing feature will help curb this tendency. Just so you understand how those features are used.

    Based on my research, the uft actually has more options, and features than some more expensive units. So I'm not so sure I can justify paying twice or almost 2 and a half more for a comparable unit. I do understand the unit will short cycle in milder months, but this unit is priced to a comparable ci boiler...Seems like a no brainier.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    edited March 2017
    What brand boiler does your buddy sell and also what supplier gives him the best product support?

    I wouldn't buy a boiler or any equipment online. No warranty is given for that equipment from the manufacturer they will never back it. Also local supply houses won't and don't back it cause it you didn't buy it from them.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Suzook said:

    I can get the Westinghouse version online for a very good price...thoughts? They are authorized seller. It looks like its cheaper too.

    No local HVAC company will install the Westinghouse version, getting warranty service may be close to impossible- even if your buddy who's licensed installs it. As far as pricing is concerned... have your installer tell their Blackman rep it's for "personal" use and they will meet the online price of the Westinghouse.
    Suzook said:


    Thanks for the info. I am assuming a distributor carries parts, or can get them quickly? Just concerned with issues getting parts in case of breakdown.

    That's a real concern with all mod-cons where unlike traditional CI boilers many share common parts.
    Blackman is an authorized HTP distributor, but they don't stock the UFT-80W boiler, it's special order. Being non-stock... they don't carry spares for it either.
    Even though my boiler was installed in 2016, my control board had an older (2015) firmware revision where certain features didn't work properly- these issues were corrected in a summer 2016 FW revision. I called my Blackman rep on a Wed morning regarding the issue, he placed the order for the new control board before noon. On Friday around noon he called me- my part had arrived at my local Blackman office. Ordered part Wed, arrived by friday... not bad. He told me he put it in as a "no heat" order to expedite shipping.

    Knowing that no local supply houses stock HTP parts, myself and another local LI (now banned?) member here made a list and have purchased a handful of the most common replacement parts for the UFT-80 and have an agreement that we will share parts where and if needed.

    It's a shame that mod-cons are not popular on Long Island (yet?) because the 80K models with 10:1 turndown would probably work with a majority of the homes here.

    If you want better supply house support (maybe?), you'd probably have to go with a Lochinvar Knight series at 2X the cost of the HTP.
    Even then, before going with the Lochinvar, I'd call their local distributor and tell them you have a Knight with a bad controller board or bad gas valve.. see what they have in stock for it.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    > @NY_Rob said:
    > I can get the Westinghouse version online for a very good price...thoughts? They are authorized seller. It looks like its cheaper too.
    >
    > No local HVAC company will install the Westinghouse version, getting warranty service may be close to impossible- even if your buddy who's licensed installs it. As far as pricing is concerned... have your installer tell their Blackman rep it's for "personal" use and they will meet the online price of the Westinghouse.
    > Thanks for the info. I am assuming a distributor carries parts, or can get them quickly? Just concerned with issues getting parts in case of breakdown.
    >
    > That's a real concern with all mod-cons where unlike traditional CI boilers many share common parts.
    > Blackman is an authorized HTP distributor, but they don't stock the UFT-80W boiler, it's special order. Being non-stock... they don't carry spares for it either.
    > Even though my boiler was installed in 2016, my control board had an older (2015) firmware revision where certain features didn't work properly- these issues were corrected in a summer 2016 FW revision. I called my Blackman rep on a Wed morning regarding the issue, he placed the order for the new control board before noon. On Friday around noon he called me- my part had arrived at my local Blackman office. Ordered part Wed, arrived by friday... not bad. He told me he put it in as a "no heat" order to expedite shipping.
    >
    > Knowing that no local supply houses stock HTP parts, myself and another local LI (now banned?) member here made a list and have purchased a handful of the most common replacement parts for the UFT-80 and have an agreement that we will share parts where and if needed.
    >
    > It's a shame that mod-cons are not popular on Long Island (yet?) because the 80K models with 10:1 turndown would probably work with a majority of the homes here.
    >
    > If you want better supply house support (maybe?), you'd probably have to go with a Lochinvar Knight series at 2X the cost of the HTP.
    > Even then, before going with the Lochinvar, I'd call their local distributor and tell them you have a Knight with a bad controller board or bad gas valve.. see what they have in stock for it.
    Maybe I am just overthinking this whole situation. For my peace of mind, I think I should just go with a ci. Set it, forget it...For the most part. I will see substantial savings over my 150k oil boiler, along with getting rid of the nasty oil, and gain space in my laundry room. It's a real shame, as I WANT the modcon, I'm all about technology and such, but I don't want to be stranded in January with no heat.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,206
    Go with cast iron and keep the chimney.
    :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    > @ChrisJ said:
    > Go with cast iron and keep the chimney.
    > :)

    Not happening, wife wants the boiler out of laundry room. If I get a ci, it will be a power vent unit moved into the garage.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    There must be HVAC contractors in your area that install mod-cons.... make a few calls and see what brand they use.

    No reputable contractor would install a model/brand that would leave their customers without heat in January. If they're willing to install it, they must be able to get common parts for it quickly.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,206
    NY_Rob said:

    There must be HVAC contractors in your area that install mod-cons.... make a few calls and see what brand they use.

    No reputable contractor would install a model/brand that would leave their customers without heat in January. If they're willing to install it, they must be able to get common parts for it quickly.

    How do you find out if someone is a reputable contractor?

    I'm still waiting for the magical answer to that.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    njtommy
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    After the install............
    njtommy
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,206
    Gordy said:

    After the install............

    Yeah,
    Pretty much.

    You know what they say about Hindsight.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    ^ Good question!




    But if they pull up to your house with something like this.... it's not going to go well :o
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Meh, never know. I have learned not to judge a book by its cover. The opposite of above meme can be more bewildering as to nice service truck, and uniformed appearances. Yet complete knucklehead job.

    ChrisJTinmannjtommy
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    All kidding aside, the OP can use the "find a contractor" feature here to find someone reputable in his area...
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    I > @ChrisJ said:
    > There must be HVAC contractors in your area that install mod-cons.... make a few calls and see what brand they use.
    >
    > No reputable contractor would install a model/brand that would leave their customers without heat in January. If they're willing to install it, they must be able to get common parts for it quickly.
    >
    > How do you find out if someone is a reputable contractor?
    >
    > I'm still waiting for the magical answer to that.


    They answer the phone when you call them about concerns or problems.
    ChrisJ
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited March 2017
    Just contacted my local supplier...What do you know??? They sell the laars mascot ft. It's a rebadged uft!
    Edit...It's sort of the same yet not?? Same controller, only has bottom feed....But alot of internals are exactly the same. Interesting
  • gschallert
    gschallert Member Posts: 170
    Suzook said:

    Just contacted my local supplier...What do you know??? They sell the laars mascot ft. It's a rebadged uft!

    Edit...It's sort of the same yet not?? Same controller, only has bottom feed....But alot of internals are exactly the same. Interesting

    http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1429048/#Comment_1429048

    Not quite. I'm a bit confused at this point. Are you hiring a heating professional (who's going to be able to offer warranty coverage through the supplier/distributor) or is this a DIY boiler replacement? Most manufacturers won't stand behind a DIY install so if you're looking to do this on the cheap then the Westinghouse is probably your best best since it's a consumer rebadge of the HTP. You can buy them at Home Depot last I checked. Not sure what state you live in either but you might want to check the terms of the rebates you were factoring in because here in NY one of the conditions is the installation has to be performed by a contractor who's "regular business" is heating installations. Not all plumbers are heating professionals.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Not close enough to the 10:1 turndown HTP UFT boiler...

    The 80K BTU Laars is only 5:1 turndown that leaves you back at 16K minimum output for your 50' zone vs. 8K BTU's for the HTP.

    http://www.laars.com/Portals/10/1309C-NH.pdf

    I seems like the Laars FT is based off an older tech fire tube mod-con with it's 5:1 turndown, internal boiler pump and "stainless steel sleeved aluminum core" heat exchanger.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    > @gschallert said:
    > Just contacted my local supplier...What do you know??? They sell the laars mascot ft. It's a rebadged uft!
    >
    > Edit...It's sort of the same yet not?? Same controller, only has bottom feed....But alot of internals are exactly the same. Interesting
    >
    > http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1429048/#Comment_1429048
    >
    > Not quite. I'm a bit confused at this point. Are you hiring a heating professional (who's going to be able to offer warranty coverage through the supplier/distributor) or is this a DIY boiler replacement? Most manufacturers won't stand behind a DIY install so if you're looking to do this on the cheap then the Westinghouse is probably your best best since it's a consumer rebadge of the HTP. You can buy them at Home Depot last I checked. Not sure what state you live in either but you might want to check the terms of the rebates you were factoring in because here in NY one of the conditions is the installation has to be performed by a contractor who's "regular business" is heating installations. Not all plumbers are heating professionals.

    Install is being done by my liscensed plumber friend. So rebates and warranty will be intact.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Check your state rebate web site and see what information they need or want along with which boilers make their list for the rebates. Most require a full heat loss work up as per Manual J.
    Gordy
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    > @NY_Rob said:
    > Not close enough to the 10:1 turndown HTP UFT boiler...
    >
    > The 80K BTU Laars is only 5:1 turndown that leaves you back at 16K minimum output for your 50' zone vs. 8K BTU's for the HTP.
    >
    > http://www.laars.com/Portals/10/1309C-NH.pdf
    >
    > I seems like the Laars FT is based off an older tech fire tube mod-con with it's 5:1 turndown, internal boiler pump and "stainless steel sleeved aluminum core" heat exchanger.

    You're right. Back to the htp I guess.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    > @njtommy said:
    > Check your state rebate web site and see what information they need or want along with which boilers make their list for the rebates. Most require a full heat loss work up as per Manual J.

    Just a paid in full invoice listing boiler. Any >94 % boiler gets x amount in rebate, an indirect HW qualifies for another x amount. No heatloss required.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    As I said earlier you really get what you pay for. With that being said you have to compare control features, HX type, etc.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,206
    Gordy said:

    As I said earlier you really get what you pay for. With that being said you have to compare control features, HX type, etc.

    Sometimes.

    Often not, though. Often you pay for a name anymore.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,770
    Or plastic pigment. They must use gold powder to get the right shade of yaller.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    Will a htp 80 work well with a 40 or 50 gallon indirect hw heater???
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Yes. A normal 40 gal gas water heater is around 36k input.

    You can extend usage with higher tank temps, and of course use a mixing device.

    80 k is sufficient. Got any huge tubs, or water fall showers?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    > @ChrisJ said:
    > As I said earlier you really get what you pay for. With that being said you have to compare control features, HX type, etc.
    >
    > Sometimes.
    >
    > Often not, though. Often you pay for a name anymore.

    I'm speaking of features. Not brand name.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    I would go with the HTP UTF do to price and controls it offers. Other brands that are similar to price don't have the control capabilities the UTF has.

    80k is plenty for a 40 gallon indirect.
    Gordy
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited March 2017
    njtommy said:

    I would go with the HTP UTF do to price and controls it offers. Other brands that are similar to price don't have the control capabilities the UTF has.



    80k is plenty for a 40 gallon indirect.

    I have decided to go for the htp utf. Still have 3 weeks until gas is at the side of my house. Now to figure out if I should get a variable speed circ? Hmmmm....it never ends...lol.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited March 2017
    Your setup is fairly common, the Grundfos Alpha should work fine with your two zone valves.

    Nice thing w/the Alpha is it's built in flow-meter. Many say it's inaccurate, and that may be so, but it's good for comparing different rates vs. it's presets.

    HTP makes a very nice Indirect too, you can use a standard 3-speed Grundfos 15-58 for that.
    Zman
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    NY_Rob said:

    Your setup is fairly common, the Grundfos Alpha should work fine with your two zone valves.

    Nice thing w/the Alpha is it's built in flow-meter. Many say it's inaccurate, and that may be so, but it's good for comparing different rates vs. it's presets.

    HTP makes a very nice Indirect too, you can use a standard 3-speed Grundfos 15-58 for that.

    Thanks, I see they make 3 different indirects....
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    You need a dirt and air seraprtor with a modcon, the
    Caleffi 5461 DirtMag, which is a combined air, dirt & magnetic separator is excellent.

    http://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-546116A-1-NPT-5461-Series-DIRTMAG-Dirt-Separator-with-Magnet
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    edited March 2017
    NY_Rob said:

    You need a dirt and air seraprtor with a modcon, the
    Caleffi 5461 DirtMag, which is a combined air, dirt & magnetic separator is excellent.

    http://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-546116A-1-NPT-5461-Series-DIRTMAG-Dirt-Separator-with-Magnet

    Thanks..Yikes! That's pricey.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Worth it though especially if you will use ecm pumps.

    You'll need an air removal device anyway so take that cost off the total price.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    It's worth every penny. Don't forget about water treatment to for the system.
  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    njtommy said:

    It's worth every penny. Don't forget about water treatment to for the system.

    ????
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Most boiler manufactures have water quality specs for their product. Specifically to insure longevity of the heat exchanger. It's a good idea to test the fill water to see what the tds,ph,chlorine etc levels are then use a system treatment.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Suzook said:

    Thanks, I see they make 3 different indirects....

    No real need for the double wall or dual coil commercial versions, the residential SSU-30 or SSU-45 would work fine.

    If you go with the HTP Indirect, you can use at tank sensor tied to the boiler control panel for much better control vs. an on/off aquastat.

    INDIRECT SENSOR (THERMISTOR) 7250P-325

  • Suzook
    Suzook Member Posts: 221
    Appreciate all the advice. Will update with any other questions I may have. Thanks again. You guys are a real help.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Two final thoughts...

    -Don't use Pex for the near boiler piping.

    -If you need to call HTP support - if you get "Peter" on the phone... hang up wait a bit and retry for someone else who might actually be helpful.

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