Boiler losing water

General

I posted a few months back about replacing our low water cut off and auto feed. After that, we added 2 gorton #'s on antlers on each main, sloped radiators, insulated near boiler piping and have been adding MOM vents (one at a time) to all the radiators. Our system has never run this quiet or heated so well. In the last 2 months though since it has gotten so cold the LWCO has added 4 gallons of water. The read out on the water feed started at 2 when it was installed and is now at 6. I have probably drained a gallon over the winter so lets say we have lost 3 gallons somewhere. I do not even know where to begin to find whatever is leaking and am wondering where to start. It is not something obvious dripping and there are no underground pipes. I did get all the previous fixes done thanks to Fred, Bob C and a few others in another thread. Okay....where do I start to find the leak(s)?

Fred

Check to make sure none of the supply valves are leaking around the valve stems or where the union connects to the radiator spud. It may look dry but when the boiler is running, the pipes/valves are hot enough that water just steams away and isn't obvious.
Once you do that, make sure the Main vents and all radiator vents close once they get hot. I had a minor leak in my system this winter and it turned out to be a main vent that wasn't closing. You'd be surprised how much water can steam away when you have 15 to 20 heating cycles a day.
After that, walk your basement and check for any signs of moisture or excessive rust/spotting along the mains, paying special attention to all threaded fittings and any flange joints (they have a gasket in them that will sometimes leak).
3 gallons over 2 months is about a quart and a pint a week. it's a fairly small leak, likely at one of the locations I mentioned above.

j a_2

If you are sure there are no external leaks, it is possible you have a leak going on in the sections…Good easy indicator is the presence of white smoke out the chimney…The leak can be very small and just sizzling off inside before it forms any visible signs…..Flood the boiler when its cold and not running and look for visible leaks…Oil or gas? Once I know I can be more specific…Not clear from your post how much water over how long of run time...

j a_2

Is this an electronic or float type feeder….how big is the boiler and how many risers,out of the top of the boiler,,,,

General

Thanks for all of the suggestions... It is a gas slant fin galaxy...7 years old. We have a small amount of white smoke from the chimney but not a lot and not all the time. I will get out all of the manuals in the morning and try to begin answering your questions as well as I can for a novice....

nicholas bonham-carter

We are always helping the novices, as well as the pros.--NBC

General

Ok...here is what we know...so far.
1. The boiler is a gas Galaxy GXHA120 DP2
2. The water feed is a VXT-24 with a Safguard Hydrolevel 400 LWCO.
3. We went around to each radiator and tightened all valves that needed it.
4. In the basement, the return to the living room is flat
5. We have a south loop that is generally flat from the boiler to the east end but at the east end we do not see any visible return for the kitchen radiator. There is a nut with a cap on it. Is it possible that the same pipe that supplies the steam would also go back to the boiler instead of having a separate return line?
6. We think that we could raise the east end to take care of the pitch on problem #4.
7. All of the near boiler piping is in copper (of course it is) and the only thing we know for sure is that they did not put a straight 1 1/2 inch plug with a boiler drain cock coming out of the bottom in order for anyone to be able to get a wand in to clean the boiler.
8. We want to replace all the near boiler piping.
9. I am fairly sure that the pigtail is on wrong.

So...I am thinking that even though we are losing some water somewhere, could it be that the water is just laying in the return(s) since so much of the return is flat? If we start getting some pitch in the returns will all this junk end up in the boiler and since we do not have a good clean out....well you get the drift of that.
I know all of you will want pictures but if we can work on one thing at a time we might be able to do this....let us know where to start.

Fred

Get some pitch on those radiators/pipes that are flat. That will keep water from sitting in those pipes and causing any water hammer (if you don't already have hammer) in the future. Those flat pipes can only hold a small amount of water so that is not likely to be the source of water lose.
Look at the seams on all the copper piping. With expansion and contraction, they will sometimes break loose. That is one of the reasons copper is not used.
On a 1 pipe system, the return water does travel back to the boiler through the same pipe that feeds the steam to the radiator. You say the other radiators have a seperate return pipe. Is this a two pipe system, except for that one radiator? Is there a supply pipe with a valve on one side of each radiator and another pipe on the other side of each radiator?
Based on the amount of water loss you quoted in your original post, you seem to be losing less than a half pint per 24 hr. period. That suggests a small leak that is probably steaming away. Did you stand by your main vents while the boiler is running? Do any of those main vents continue to make any air/steam exhaust noise through the entire heating cycle? You may not see steam but if you hear venting noise throughout the entire cycle, that is probably where that amount of water could steam away.
I would start with inspection of all the seams on any copper pipe and then the main vents.
Also, if any of the mains are still iron pipe, check for any rust spots or joints that might have a small leak/steaming. Use a small mirror to go around those joints. The mirror will steam up if you hit a leak.
As to your question about junk returning to the boiler when you pitch the return pipes correctly, there isn't going to be enough water or junk in those spots to pose any real problem at the boiler.
Do you have a drain spigot on the bottom of the boiler? If so, you may want to drain the boiler and flush water through it before next heating season.

General

It is definitely a 1 pipe system with a valve on one end of the radiators and only a vent on the other with no pipe. We did pitch all the radiators but how do we go about pitching the mains toward the boiler? I think that we are just confused on the main/return pipes. It is not two separate pipes but one pipe that loops around and returns back to the boiler? So.. when we see the main vents (2 antlers with 2 gorton #2's), even though they are right above the boiler (one antler on each side) they are at the end of the main? It seems to us that they are at the end of tne return. With the exception of near boiler piping, all of the mains are in black pipe and are all insulated. I have attached pics. Any silver insulated pipe is copper.....
Thanks Fred

General

I have attached another pic of 1side of main venting that looks to us to be on the return right above the boiler...is that correct? Vent is right top where we are holding flashlight...

Fred

The mains should start out at the boiler pitching away from the boiler and should start pitcching down hill from there until it returns to the verticals that drop down into the wet returns. The Mains, technically are mains until the very last radiator run, after that, they become dry returns and remain dry returns until they drop into a vertical pipe and fall below the boiler water line. At that point, they become wet returns. Some of your dry returns do look like they have no, or very little pitch back towards the boiler. It's really hard to tell from pictures. If they do not have any pitch, it may be necessary to get a good steam Pro in there to assess what needs to be done to repitch them. it may mean replacing some of the verticals with shorter one.
Those mains may have lost their pitch as a result of a boiler replacement, when they installed that copper piping. If you do not have any water hammer, I would focus my attention on finding any small leaks and have the pitch corrected when the near boiler piping is replaced.

Fred

General said:

I have attached another pic of 1side of main venting that looks to us to be on the return right above the boiler...is that correct? Vent is right top where we are holding flashlight...

Yes, that is a return. It should drop down to the wet return.

General

We are reading "we have steam heat"...Dan says the main vents should be at the end of the main pipe in the basement so are our main vents correctly placed?

Fred

General said:

We are reading "we have steam heat"...Dan says the main vents should be at the end of the main pipe in the basement so are our main vents correctly placed?

When they are at the end of the returns, like yours are, you should have some additional vents to accommodate the air expulsion of the additional piping. Ideally you want the vents at the end of the main, right after the last radiator run but yours will work the way it is as long as the vents are adequate to remove the additional air.
The reason for putting them at the end of the main, after the last radiator run is the fact that it isn't necessary to remove air from returns and it requires a little less venting capacity but you have to install them where you have a convenient tapping.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

General said:

We are reading "we have steam heat"...Dan says the main vents should be at the end of the main pipe in the basement so are our main vents correctly placed?

When they are at the end of the returns, like yours are, you should have some additional vents to accommodate the air expulsion of the additional piping. Ideally you want the vents at the end of the main, right after the last radiator run but yours will work the way it is as long as the vents are adequate to remove the additional air.
The reason for putting them at the end of the main, after the last radiator run is the fact that it isn't necessary to remove air from returns and it requires a little less venting capacity but you have to install them where you have a convenient tapping.

I'm not sure I agree on this Fred.

Additional venting for the dry return isn't necessary because we don't care how long it takes steam to fill it. It should still fill the main in the same amount of time, and then start filling the dry return that no one cares about.


The downside is now you're heating the dry return so additional insulation is required and there may be more resistance in venting due to extra piping.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

General said:

We are reading "we have steam heat"...Dan says the main vents should be at the end of the main pipe in the basement so are our main vents correctly placed?

When they are at the end of the returns, like yours are, you should have some additional vents to accommodate the air expulsion of the additional piping. Ideally you want the vents at the end of the main, right after the last radiator run but yours will work the way it is as long as the vents are adequate to remove the additional air.
The reason for putting them at the end of the main, after the last radiator run is the fact that it isn't necessary to remove air from returns and it requires a little less venting capacity but you have to install them where you have a convenient tapping.

I'm not sure I agree on this Fred.

Additional venting for the dry return isn't necessary because we don't care how long it takes steam to fill it. It should still fill the main in the same amount of time, and then start filling the dry return that no one cares about.


The downside is now you're heating the dry return so additional insulation is required and there may be more resistance in venting due to extra piping.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I agree venting the return isn't necessary, and I think I said that but, if we agree steam will take the path of least resistance, and we agree some systems don't leave many options but to vent on the returns, then it seems to me that steam is going to follow those larger Main vents as long as it can until they close and then move into the radiator runs. If we agree that is the likely senario, it becomes important (where return venting is necessary to get the mains vented) to move that air as quickly as possible also and to have sufficient vent capacity to accommodate the additional air in that piping.

ChrisJ

You don't have to yell at me @Fred

Fred

ChrisJ said:

You don't have to yell at me @Fred

Sorry I didn't think it came across that way

Chris_L

To the OP. It looks like your piping is properly labelled in the photos. When thinking about the pitch, I always find it helpful to ask myself which way will water (condensate) flow at each point. In a system like yours, you don't want water flowing back to the boiler through the main; it should go back through the return. So the mains slope away from the boiler, and the returns toward it.

As for your water problem. What pressure are you running at? I can't see the numbers on your pressure gauge in the photos, but I can see the needle. But if the gauge starts at zero (i.e., doesn't measure vacuum), and is a standard 30 psi gauge, your pressure is much high. (You'll lose more water through the vents when the pressure is higher.)

General

Ok....there is a plug on the south loop that we can move the one antler to when we redo the near boiler piping. Would that help?
Any steam pros planning a road trip to Michigan?

General

Chris...I think the pressure issue was taken care of a few months back by some helpful pros here. The pressuretrol was set all the way to the top. We moved it to the bottom and the wheel at 1. The needle barely moves but we prob should get a better guage.

Fred

General said:

Ok....there is a plug on the south loop that we can move the one antler to when we redo the near boiler piping. Would that help?
Any steam pros planning a road trip to Michigan?

Yes, moving those vents to that location, after the last radiator run would be better.
I am copying @problemSolver on this post. he is a Pro in the Michigan area and may be able to help with your boiler re-pipe.

General

I did chat with problemsolver in an earlier post and he doesnt normally travel this far but would consult and possibly make the trip if need be. Thanks for the help Fred. We will keep you posted as we figure this out.....

nicholas bonham-carter

Start first with the basic overfilling test. When the boiler has cooled down a bit, shut it off, and fill it until you can feel the header get cold.
Let it sit for a few hours, and then look in the firebox, and around the base for any signs of leaking.
When you have seen whatever may have shown itself, drain it back down, and turn it on again.--NBC

j a_2

Agree on flood testing as I mentioned a few posts back….Seriously, do that first and let us know….You can’t really hurt anything by filling to the header,so don’t worry..

General

Ok, we will start with that and let you know.
Thanks!

General

How "cooled down" does the boiler have to get before doing the overfill test and how can you tell?

Fred

It should be cool enough that the cold water you add doesn't create any thermal shock. I'd leave the boiler off for a few hours and initially add a couple gallons of water at a time until the boiler water is luke warm, just to be safe. Once you have it filled up to near the header, watch for any leaking for a couple hours (or until you see water dripping). With the small amount of water loss you have, per day, I am doubtful that the boiler has a leak but I guess most leaks start out small and it doesn't hurt to eliminate the boiler as the source.
Did you make sure all of your main vents are closing when they get hot?

General

We will check the main vents first and then flood the boiler if it is not the vents. We are hoping to do that either tomorrow or Monday. Thanks Fred

Steamhead

Those main vents look like two Gorton #2 vents- if so, they're the biggest you can get.

General

@Steamhead ....that's a good thing right?

Fred

Yes, It's a good thing!

General

Definitely started dripping as soon as we got half way up header...now what? Dripping in front right under skim port...

Fred

Can you tell if it is leaking from the skim port piping or from the boiler block? Let's hope it's from the pipe.

General

Cant tell unless we could get piping off....husband and brother are more thinking joint but we really dont know

Fred

If it's at the threaded tapping and not a crack in the boiler block itself, that may be just a matter of removing the skim pipe, putting some pipe dope and teflon tape on a new pipe. Some would even try using an epoxy like jb-weld around where the pipe screws into the boiler tapping but I think a more permanent fix is a new pipe installation (assumming the block isn't cracked or rotted).

General

It is not an easy pipe to get to. I guess our main question right now is...can we still run the boiler while we look for someone that has more knowledge than us to look at this boiler. It was put in on 3/23/06 and has a 10 year warranty on heat exchanger. Is that the same as the block?

Fred

Yes, you can continue to run the boiler, just keep an eye on the water level, even though you water loss is minimal at this point. The heat exchanger is the boiler block. If it is, in fact just the skim pipe, that won't be covered by warranty but it's good you still have some warranty on the block. Does your warranty cover full replacement? Including parts and labor? Just parts? Is it pro-rated? Pull your warranty out and familiarize yourself with it.

ChrisJ

Even if the block is damaged I'd say slim chance of warranty replacement.

From what I've heard they will use any excuse under the sun to deny replacement and the fact something froze automatically voids it.

General

2 years parts 1 year labor 10 year heat exchanger.....

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Even if the block is damaged I'd say slim chance of warranty replacement.

From what I've heard they will use any excuse under the sun to deny replacement and the fact something froze automatically voids it.

Nothing froze on this boiler. That was another thread