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Boiler losing water

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Comments

  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    @Chris ....Thanks, I will try that.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,354
    edited March 2015
    Fred said:

    What would be the harm if I started letting water out slowly to see when it actually trips?
    That sounds like a plan.




    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    Generalvaporvac
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    Guy is here now...it is a solid 4 section....no gaskets
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    General said:

    Guy is here now...it is a solid 4 section....no gaskets

    If it has a Hot Water coil in it, there has to be a gasket around that coil.
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    He says it is the strangest place he has ever seen....he says there is a lot of green coloring all over the bottom of the heat exchanger like it has been leaking....
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,354
    General said:

    He says it is the strangest place he has ever seen....he says there is a lot of green coloring all over the bottom of the heat exchanger like it has been leaking....

    He has a tank water heater.
    Does his boiler also have a coil? I don't see one in the pictures.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    No coil.....nope
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    ChrisJ said:

    General said:

    He says it is the strangest place he has ever seen....he says there is a lot of green coloring all over the bottom of the heat exchanger like it has been leaking....

    He has a tank water heater.
    Does his boiler also have a coil? I don't see one in the pictures.
    Earlier in this thread they said it looked like it was leaking around the coil:
    Could only get side and front panel away a few inches..Husband says its dripping somewhere between the tankless coil and the heat exchanger.
    If it's a 4 section cast iron boiler, what other coil would it be???
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    So...in hubby's defense, he was going by the diagram supplied with the slant fin. Now that the guy is getting all of the sides off....it doesn't look like the diagram on the boiler instructions....
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    General said:

    So...in hubby's defense, he was going by the diagram supplied with the slant fin. Now that the guy is getting all of the sides off....it doesn't look like the diagram on the boiler instructions....

    We couldn't be so lucky. I don't understand the green color??? Cast Iron doesn't turn green when it leaks. Is the leak at one of those copper pipes (copper turns green)? Maybe the copper riser? Maybe a one of the copper joints gave way under expansion/contraction stress (That's why Copper is not recommended above the boiler water line). If that turns out to be what it is, now is the time to replace that copper with black iron.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,354
    Isn't the green copper phosphate?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    ChrisJ said:

    Isn't the green copper phosphate?

    I think is Copper Carbonate.
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    2 fairly big holes (enough to punch a screwdriver through) in the front section....ugh! He took a pic and is going to email it to me...I will post it when he does.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    Oh my gosh. On a 7 year old boiler. Time to see what Slant finn will do for you under warranty. Let's hope.
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    edited March 2015
    How did I miss that her NBpiping was all copper? Would this lead to rotting sections? Just wondering.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    vaporvac said:

    How did I miss that her NBpiping was all copper? Would this lead to rotting sections? Just wondering.

    There seems to be some debate about what effects galvanic reactions will have on a boiler block or anywhere above the boiler water line. Some say it's minimal, others suggest it is a serious potential. That certainly is a possibility.
    You probably missed it because the near boiler piping is covered in insulation.
    Whatever the cause, any replacement (new boiler or replacement boiler block) the near boiler piping should be corrected using black iron pipe.
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    @Fred..Guy (we can now call him Carl) says he wants to try to get the whole boiler warrantied...it should not have happened. Now is the time to get all the near boiler piping re-done. On this Galaxy ....he said it looks like it had been over firing because one of the steel plates in between the section was eaten away at the bottom...the other was not quite as bad. He has a question for you....There was a place for 8 burners however there are only 7 and in the last place for a burner, the port is plugged. He has no idea why they would not use all 8.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,858
    Is it over sized for the connected radiation? I did this on mine (2 burners) because it was so oversized for my load. If you are over sized I wonder if they would warranty and down size it?
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    I did figure it out a few months ago and as I remember it was about right for the 120,000 BTU...but I will add them up again tonight to make sure. Also, i've learned a lot from all of you since then.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    The only reason one burner tube might have been removed and plugged would have been to down-size the boiler. I suppose it is possible that was done at the time of manufacture and allowed Slant fin to use the same burner on a couple different size boilers but, I think most would tell you that can create uneven heating of the boiler block and create its own set of problems, unless that eighth slot would accommodate a five section block.
    That's the only reason I can think of.
    I'm sure others might chime in on this also.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,354
    edited March 2015
    The boiler that was in this house when we bought it rotted out twice in only 8 years due to abuse.

    A leaky system and slightly low PH (6ish) was a bad combination.

    That block likely wasn't covered under warranty the first time when it rotted in only 3 years and the second time after 5 years when I tore it out I just scrapped it.

    Hopefully your guy can get a warranty replacement for you but there's a good chance they will deny it. :(

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    @KC_Jones I just re-measured all radiators and I have 358.5 EDR. Our current boiler is 120,000 BTU
    @Chris Since there is still 2 years left on the warranty, I would hope they would honor it.
    @Fred ...he will be back in the morning and I will let him read your posts regarding the plugged burner port.
    Considering all of this, I am wondering what good it does to have an auto feed that records how much water goes into the boiler. We would not have caught this problem until the boiler started leaking if we had not been looking for a problem due to the excess water usage. It may have been a few years down the line when the boiler actually broke loose and started leaking. If they don't warranty...what good does it do to find out early? Just wondering.....
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,354
    For the radiation you have I would recommend staying with that size boiler. Technically, it's considered a hair undersized but in my book it's perfect.

    I didn't see any warnings like Burnham have regarding excessive makeup water in Slantfin's warranty so you might be good to go on the warranty. Please let us know what happens.

    Going forward, you may want to consider using water treatment such as Rectorseal Steamaster tablets.

    Even with an autofeeder you should be manually feeding the boiler. The autofeeder is only there in case you're not to keep the heat going. Otherwise, check the water once a week or so and make sure you maintain the proper level.

    I didn't install an autofeeder on my system even though I had one from the previous boiler because I don't believe in them.

    The Galaxy boiler is a good boiler so I would be willing to bet excessive makeup water, or a low ph is to blame for the rotted block. Fix those issues and your next boiler will last 30+ years.

    It would also be best to get rid of most of that copper piping. I have some copper below the water line but everything else is black iron with cast iron fittings.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited March 2015
    I don't use an auto water feeder because I want to physically add water to my boiler myself and determine if something isn't right. Most of the Pro's on here would tell you the real advantage of an auto feeder is when you are away from home for some extended period and you want to make sure the boiler doesn't have a problem, run low on water and shut down, leaving things to freeze up.
    They haven't said they won't replace at least the boiler block yet so let's not make that leap, but in reality, most leaks are not in the boiler. They are in wet returns, valves, vents, occassionally in Mains and headers. Catching those early and getting them corrected ensures you don't add large and frequent amount of fresh water, that we know is damaging to boilers. Finding a boiler leak early is unfortunate, to say the least but it gives you a fighting chance to get the manufacturer to do the right thing, especially if they know they have a record that shows they have mulitple failures with a specific block or casting.
    Let's keep our fingers crossed that they will step up and at least (1) replace the boiler or (2) provide replacement parts or (3) give you a substantial credit towards a replacement. Clearly they aren't likely to bare the cost of labor but, if they replace it, the fact the unit won't have seven years of use on it has value and getting the near boiler piping corrected is a good thing too.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,858
    If you don't get an auto feeder WITH A METER you might consider at least a water meter on the makeup. I went with the feeder to kill 2 birds with one stone. Without some kind of meter I can't really get my head around how you ever know how much you are feeding manual or otherwise. I should add I only ever manually feed my boiler through the autofeed/meter. I was just looking at your boiler pics again. In addition to the copper the piping isn't correct. I didn't re read this whole post to see if that was already mentioned or not, just wanted to mention it.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    @Chris ...I've already told him that when the new boiler goes in all the old problems need to be fixed including the copper piping and any PH problem that may have caused the problem.
    @Fred ...All good points as usual.
    I did ask Carl if he had read any of Dan's books. He said "not the books, but I get his newsletters. After this is over....I may let him borrow mine :).....maybe
    ChrisJ
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited March 2015
    I was just looking at your boiler pics again. In addition to the copper the piping isn't correct. I didn't re read this whole post to see if that was already mentioned or not, just wanted to mention it.
    @KC_Jones this poster had another thread several months ago where we explained what was wrong with the near boiler piping. When this gets fixed, i'm hoping they hold Carl's feet to the fire to get that corrected to the specs and diagrams provided in the owner's manual.
    EDIT: And maybe even post pictures as the install progresses so we can make sure he is doing it right! He sounds like he's the kind of guy that's open to some advice.
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    @KC_Jones our auto feed does have a meter which is how I noticed it had fed 4 gallons since it was new in December. Carl said the piping was not correct to our boiler in his opinion but when he re pipes it how do I know what is correct?
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,507
    I've said before, automatic feeders are the work of the devil IF they encourage homeowners to ignore the boiler. They should only be used if the house is going to be vacant for several days, if someone is in the house the autofeeder should be VALVED OFF.

    A boiler that is not looked at a couple of times a week is not going to last long. If you have to add water on any regular basis the leak has to be found and fixed or you may get to replace the boiler because of excess fresh water.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    @Fred ...that answered the piping question. I will make sure he pipes according to the specs. The only scary part about that is that is what we were looking at when my husband thought it was the gasket. The booklet we were given with the boiler was not the correct one.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,858
    General said:

    he re pipes it how do I know what is correct?

    There is a manual provided with the boiler that shows the minimum piping requirements. If the contractor can read they can pipe it correctly. Most good steam men will go beyond those specs however. If you get at least the minimum you will be way ahead of a lot of people including what you have now.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    General
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,858
    General said:

    The booklet we were given with the boiler was not the correct one.

    I think pretty much every boiler manufacturer has their manuals online these days. If you go to their website you can find the correct manual and either view it there or download it and print it. Also you mention you have Dan's books? There is a ton of information there and on this site about proper piping. Read it and learn it the best you can. Be VERY specific in the contract you sign before having any work done. As long as it's in the contract you have a footing for getting it done correctly.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    General said:

    @Fred ...that answered the piping question. I will make sure he pipes according to the specs. The only scary part about that is that is what we were looking at when my husband thought it was the gasket. The booklet we were given with the boiler was not the correct one.

    A new book will come with any new boiler, and that boiler is new enough that manuals are available on-line. Plus, as I mentioned above, just post some pictures and we will know what is happening.
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    Will be specific in the contract and post pics....definitely
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    General said:

    Will be specific in the contract and post pics....definitely

    And pay as little as possible (if anything) upfront.
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    @Fred .....not gonna happen
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,507
    In my area the norm seems to be half up front and the balance when the boiler is done and passes inspection.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,354
    If possible, share on here how he plans on piping the boiler. It may save everyone a lot of time and then you'll know it's right before it even happens.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    GeneralKC_Jones
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,901
    just curious,
    and without going back and re reading everything for lefts and rights,
    on that plugged burner port,
    any chance it's on the same side as the leaks ?
    known to beat dead horses
  • General
    General Member Posts: 120
    @neilc ....yes just above it.
    @Fred ...make that three holes. One hole big enough to put a finger through, one pinhole size, and one in between. They are all above the water line about 2 inches from the top.

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