Hot water baseboard heating

Rich_49

Will

007 add the required mechanical energy to overcome 7.9 feet of head through the heat exchanger even at say 5 or 7.2 GPM ?   Can we ignore the head issue as if it is alright to not be aware of these things when we accept someone's hard earned money or even ratepayer money since this was done through Mass Saves ?  In any event the 007 is not sufficient , agree ?  My point is even making concessions on flow the 007 will never add the required energy needed .  Don't forget the added head from the piping configuration which according to my calculations and HTP's at about 11 - 12 feet .  So, say we want to utilize 7.2 GPM and absorb every bit of energy that boiler has to give and make it run at top efficiency also , the 007 still does make it .

SWEI

7.9 feet of head

at 10 GPM means less at 8 GPM.  I don't see any HX curves in the SSU IOM and I can't really make sense out of Table 7 given that it shows higher head loss for 7 GPM than it does for 10 GPM.  Perhaps it represents multiple models?  Whatever it is saying needs clarification.



At this point, I'm not saying an 007 is adequate (though it may be) but I do believe that 10 GPM is not necessary given the size of the boiler.  If row 1 (6 GPM) of Table 7 happens to apply to the SSU-45 then an 007 should work, but a 008 (or better yet, a Bumble Bee) would probably represent a better choice.

Ironman

I'm missing something, too.

The attached pump chart shows a three speed 007 with higher curve than I remember. Has Taco now come out with 3 speed 007?



I could see going to an 010 if the 007 wouldn't give enough gpm @ 8 ft. of head, but I agree that a 014 or 015 would bee too much if the boiler can't deliver enough btu's to match.



I'm gonna pull up Taco's pump curve directly from their site to see if somthing has changed.

Ironman

007 Pump curve

Just checked Taco's site and all that I could find is a single speed 007. It produces 8 gpm @ 8 ft. of head. The 007IFC ( internal flow check) produces 2 gpm @ 8 ft. of head. The 8 feet of head is just the resistance of the SuperStore coil and does not include any piping/fitting losses. Given the fact that just adding an internal flow check reduces the gpm from 8 to 2, I'd install a larger circ. A 008 or Grundfos UPS15-58 on high speed should be sufficient to match the boilers capacity.



I don't know where the info on the above pump curve comes from. If I'm missing something, please enlighten me.

Rich_49

from Taco of course

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/00-3speed_family_curves.pdf



The associated head for this arrangement is at least 11.1 ' . The 2 scenarios are on the attachment . 008  too small , 0010 too small , 0012 is a pain in the **** because the flanges differ from others and it costs , 009 too expensive , obvious Taco choice is 0014 . Am I wrong ?  SSU hx chart is on page 7 of the IOM

SWEI

Page 7

shows pressure drop at recommended flow rates, but only @10 GPM for the SSU-45 as far as I can tell.  Using their number of 141,000 BTU/hr I get an assumed ∆T of 28.2ºF  If those are boiler output figures, the 72,000 the Alpine 080 would only need 5.1 GPM with that ∆T.  Assume a bit less, say 20ºF, and you get 7.2 GPM.  I suspect that somewhere in between lies a flow which will deliver all the BTUs that boiler can produce.

Rich_49

I agree

We could use all that boiler can offer at 7.2 GPM . My concern is the head loss of the entire circuit . Will it not exceed 10 GPM ?  It certainly will and this is what must be addressed . I say that at 7.2 GPM and a 20 * ^T we use all that boiler can produce but if we cant move the fluid the Delta will decrease and we will not be harvesting all the energy that plant has to give us .

SWEI

Exceeding 10 GPM

on the indirect loop?  It's still possible I'm missing something here, but why?

Ironman

008 curve

The curve for the 008 shows that it will deliver 7.3 gal @ 11 ft of head. That exactly matches the output of the boiler and would give a 20* delta T across the boiler. Please explain how that is not enough circ? I don't understand how exceeding the boilers output would be any benefit.



Also, keep in mind that head ratings are at a given gpm. The head increase or decreases proportionate to gpm.

SWEI

I'm still questioning

Whether 11 feet of head is realistic at 7.3 GPM.  If Table 7 applies to multiple models (unnecessarily confusing IMO) the 11.3' it shows must be for an SSU-30.  Otherwise, how can the head loss possibly be greater at 7 GPM than it is at 10 GPM?



Does HTP have curves available?

Rich_49

Apologies

In my last post I said 10GPM and meant feet head . Guess I should work or help but not simultaneously .  Bob's choice of a 008 would certainly fit this system , make it a VDT model and it's perfect set at 20* Delta .   baseboard heat help I will send you that chart and maybe myself and the others can explain to you why that choice is really very good.

Steamfitter66

Page 92 of the installers guide

explains who to program the boost function for recovery from setback. I recommend you set the bedrooms to whats comfortable and leave the living area within a few degrees of occupied temp.

If you continue to have installer issues call Burnham tell them how many times the company has been back and insist on a company rep comes out.

Im not a big fan of this type of boiler because of the the high resistance to water flow that requires these bigger pumps for boiler and idwh.

Very simply you need a pump sized to flow app 6 gpm at the combined flow resistance of the boiler and the water heater. Just ask them what gpm is required by this boiler water heater combination and what is the head for each at that gpm,

If they cant answer that call for a rep.

Did they actually perform the required start up check list? ask them to provide documentation of start up.

This stuff is all in the manual.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

Thanks for all the replies.  This is all very new to me as I am a recent first time home buyer.  So what pump (green and black) should I be telling them they need?  I'm not sure if they performed the start up list...basically once they installed it, they were not able to turn it on because the town inspecter had to look at it first, and then someone from National Grid had to come by, approve it, then turn on the gas.  They did remove the outdoor temperature reading apparatus, and after using the heat for a few days without that, it does seem to heat up a bit faster.  but I was under the impression that the outdoor temperature reading is what helps keep the burner efficient, and if we removed that, isn't similar to us just burning oil at 180 degrees all the time?

Ironman

Head

Steamfitter,

It's piped p/s, therefore, you don't need the combined resistance of the boiler and the indirect. Just the resistance of the indirect circuit. There should be no hydraulic interference from the boiler if its circ is sized correctly.

Ironman

Circ Size

As I stated above: a Taco 008 or a Grundfos UPS15-58 on high speed.



You are correct about the outdoor sensor: it needs to be re-connected with the reset curve properly calculated and set. Then the boost feature needs to be adjusted to match your life style. The problem is that most installers don't know how to do any calculations and therefore they leave the control set on the factory settings. These are very generalized and are set to make sure the customer will get enough heat under any circumstance. That means you're not maximizing the efficiency of the boiler. It set for worst case scenario.



I would follow Steamfitter's advise and keep you bedrooms cooler and leave the living room area set at one temp.

SWEI

DHW circ sizing

agree that a 008 is a better choice than a 0010.  I'm going to see if I can pry some curves out of HTP just for fun.



The Bumble Bee (HEC-2) has almost the same curve as the 008 and only costs a few bucks more.  I'd probably choose one of those.

Weezbo

may i take the conversation to another level ,

for a moment?



i'd like to discuss range ability and true primary secondary , and branch flow , and parallel primary off a branch in conjunction with domestic priority over ride with the onboard controls ,

because this is the next stumbling block i think the guy will encounter.

Weezbo.

Ezrio315

Hot water baseboard

It is similar to radiant heat, this system uses hot water heated by a boiler to heat a space by a combination of radiation and convection.Yes 5 to 10 degrees in about 15 minutes it is normal, even it produces more efficiency then normal hot water heater.

Hot water heated by boiler and piped to fin-tube baseboard units and walls and  boilers fueled by natural gas, oil or electricity. I think now you are satisfied.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

hi, I think you misread...my hot water baseboard heating heats 1 degree in 30 minutes, not 5 in 15.  They are coming back today to take a look at it for the 4th time, so hopefully they get it right this time!

Steamfitter66

I missed

the idwh piping as my eyes are getting older Its clear when i clicked on the pics.

sgall

Your Setup

is exactly the same as mine except i have the Superstor 60 I am also in MA.  Listen to the guys on here and you will get straightened out.  They helped with the design of my system which heats a 3700 sq. ft. house built in 1880 with the Alpine 80. Our heating cost went from ~$9k a year to under $2k.   I think as has been mentioned your indirect pump may be wrong. My plumber and the guys at the supply house tried to put taco 007's in my setup but i insisted on Grundfos 15-58's.  For the Indirect it is set on the highest speed.  I also had to get used to thinking about the system differently in that i was used to setting the thermostat back 10 degrees at night.  As you have experienced, it takes forever to come back to daytime temperature - ours takes particularly long since we have cast iron radiators. We now set back only 3 or 4 degrees at night.  I would add as has also been mentioned that you really want that outdoor reset working and I have played around in the past with using the boost feature and greater setbacks but the system seems to work best with small setbacks and no boost.  I think you will be happy with this system once you get the kinks out.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok, so the company just left and swears everything is fixed.  They did change the piping saying it was reversed at the tees like mentioned in an above post.  They put the outdoor reader back on.  I believe they did set a boost.  They filled the bathtub, and it filled, and the hottest it got was 117 degrees....this did not seem super hot to me, but they said 120 is as hot as it should ever go.  They swore that the taco 007 was the right pump, and I couldn't change their minds on that.  we have a 2700 sq foot house, a zone upstairs, a zone downstairs, and 700 of that square feet is not on a zone at all and just on a gas fireplace.  so really, 2000 sq feet heated by baseboard.  They still said that with the outdoor temp reader, the heat should not be set back by more than 4 degrees, and that we should not expect it to be very fast.  I guess over the next few weeks we will get a feel for how it is working.  

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok, fail again.  The hot water ran out again, and we never had this problem with our old hot water tank and oil burner.  they are claiming its the mixing valve, but why would this not have been an issue last month on the old burner then?

SWEI

Never had this problem before

what size boiler and what brand/size indirect did you have before?

Steamfitter66

It could be

the mixing valve. you can check by feeling the pipe from the water heater to the valve when this happens. Humans can sense within a few degrees of temperature differential. If the pipe from the water heater is cool then its not the mixing valve. What is the usage when it ran out.

Rich_49

Imagine that

Did you run out during a high use period ?  Is there a mixing valve now ? What temp is the water in the tank being stored at ?   You did say you were located in Mass correct ?  Call HTP tomorrow 1-508-763-8071 and get technical on the line and explain your situation to them , tell them boiler size , what pump is being used to supply the coil and ask their opinion .  If you should want to have another look at this maybe we can find you someone local .

Ironman

Mixing Valve?

I see no mixing valve in your pics. Are they referring to your tub/shower diverter?



Neither a bad mixing valve or shower diverter would cause the symptoms you're describing. If either were bad, you wouldn't have hot for a while then run out; the water would be cool from the start and continue to be so.



Do the 5 gallon bucket test that I described earlier. In fact, you could keep filling and dumping the bucket until you run out of hot. Time it and count how many gallons you get and post it here. It will be very easy from that to tell if your indirect is performing correctly.

Weezbo

regardless ,of all this

i have a common weed burner with an uncommon head and no reg i can slam at leaast 84000 btu's and hour out of it , in less than 1 hour i can have sweated your clothes off your back in 30 below in a 1200 to 1800 sq ft room with no question in my mind whatsoever.

if an 80 K boiler running for days and weeks on end cannot make hot water nor heat the space , then you need to find who clocked the meter and find out from them if this thing is running on some sort of pilot or what precisely the current exiting boiler water temp is .

this sounds like you do not even have any circulation whatsoever ..other than maybe single pipe gravity flow due to conduction to some heated pipe nearby the pilot ..

you may have the only gravity alpine in North America.

Weezbo



Where is even one gauge or readout that any of us have seen on this boiler?

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

the hot water tank is the SSU-45.  Before we converted to gas, we had a 14 year old Burnham burner, but I'm not sure of the hot water tank or the size.  All I know is it was a bad decision to convert because what we had before the conversion was working great and we had no issues.  tha bath tub runs out at about 3/4 full, when it never did this before.  and no other water was being used around this time.  They are coming back yet again this morning. They said it was the mixing valve inside the bath tub.  I'm not sure what temp the hot water is being stored at...how can I tell?  The Alpine changes it's temperature depending on what is needed.  I will try calling HTP and the 5 gallon bucket test as well.  In terms of who clocked the meter, I'm not sure I know what this means.  Do you mean the meter for the gas that is on the outside of the house?

It just makse no sense to us that we had plenty of hot water and a house that heated up in minutes before this project, and now we are being told that we can never set back more than 3 or 4 degrees or we cannot expect the house to heat up, and it must be our mixing valve.  I think it must be the fact that they keep sending the same guy for this problem, and he does not know what to do.

Weezbo

have them bring you a spring attached

Temperature gauge . it just straps on a pipe .

it can be used on 3/4 to 1/1/2 no problem G. I.

WeezboApollo S



strap On Temperature Gauge

Enlarged Image

Apollo Strap On Temperature Gauge

Item #: 113207 | Model #: VR68920



$19.97 not an ad ,

just an idea what it costs ... soon as you have this thing i can, oops !

a child of 5 ,

could tell you what the temps are at any particular instance in a pipe ..

these are accurate enough to give something to reference every single issue that you are having because it can be moved from pipe to pipe location to location ..

i will hang in here though it is 4 a.m. here







..

PLUMMER

No regrets, just bad install

Looks like you have some great equipment. I'm glad others pointed out some important items. Rich hit all the major important items needing to be addressed. I wouldn't regret the change just yet, as you just need some minor changes by knowledgable installers. If those inspectors were like they are here, the system has to work properly not just turn on. I would say almost every call I get for a IDWH problem lies with an improper install. Manufacturers don't list pump specs and pipe sizing recommendations just to fill up a manual.

I would be very surprised if you couldn't have used an HTP boiler as well. I wouldn't question it , but then I seen the install pics.

I'm not sure on that alpine but it might do more than you think when its in priority DHW mode. My SSU-30 provides endless tempered water for a full Grohe 3 zone shower plus laundry on an 80k boiler. You might be able to eliminate the IDWH pump if the primary loop pump will meet both manufacturer recommended specs and repiped. (Plus flow control device) Since in priority everything else will be off.

Unfortunately sounds like you will need to print the correct data provided here and hold you plumbers hand politely. I would emphasize manufacturer suggested piping and material as well.

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

the hot water has held up for the shower/tub, but we just ran out of hot water in the kitchen sink while washing dishes.  The plumber said with the mixing valve, we would never run out of hot water.  Also, we set the heat today, and left it at that temperature all day, and my brother thought that it was odd that the baseboard heat kept turning on and off.  He thought for this type of burner, that it should maintain the consistent heat that we set it at.  any thoughts on this?  I will print out the charts to give to them, but they told us that the Taco 007 was accurate, and that they do not make a 008.  So I didn't know what to say because this is all foreign to me.  I will also be giving the company who makes the tank/burner a call to see if they can give some insignt.

Ironman

They Don't Make a 008?

What's this then?



http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/101-031.pdf

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok I will print this out too and give this to them.  They just said they don't make an 008, and that they always put the 007 in houses that are bigger than ours, and that they do this all the time.  but clearly, something is wrong.  while the heat does go up, it's still not the fastest.  the heat seems a bit faster than before, but it got stuck at 63 degrees today for a long time, probably 45 minutes or so, before going up, and once it reached 68, that is when we noticed the hot water ran out in the kitchen sink.  we both showered today, had the heat at 68 all day, and ran the dishwasher.  is this typical, or should the water have stayed hot in the sink?  it never ran out before this new system

Ironman

I hope you see...

That you're gonna have to start listening to what the pros on this site are telling you and not what the amateurs who put your system in are saying. Seriously, some of the best, if not the best, hydronic people in the world contribute here, not the least of whom is the owner of this site.

Mark Eatherton is an internationally recognized expert who is president of the Radiant Panel Association and writes technical articles for trade journals. He has contributed advice to this post. The people who installed your system continue to spout off their ignorance by saying things like "there's no such thing as a Taco 008" or we've always done it this way", yet they apparently can't even read a pump curve. And your system doesn't work right.



I understand that it's confusing for you trying to grasp all this techno jumble and I'm not intending to be hard on you. I'm just trying to get you to see the logic: your installer put the system in wrong by their own admission. It doesn't work right. You came here looking for answers from the pros. Your installer keeps contradicting what we tell you. Who are you gonna listen to?



Please do the the bucket test that I requested. Until we know how may gpm of hot water you're flowing and how long it lasts, it cannot be determined if the indirect is doing its job.



Also, as mentioned previously, the indirect should be set to have priority. This is done in the boiler control. If not set up properly, it won't perform properly.



I am sympathetic to your dilemma and we want to see you get this resolved and be happy with your system.



Please continue to keeps us up dated.

Weezbo

Did you read what Plumber said?

a 30 is what he and i both said would be more than sufficent ,

how a bout Iron man run the water into a bucket time it , i am not a Well man , i am a shallow Well Man . we do this to determine GPM draw down etc... it is cheap ..it is wisdom itself , honest ladd.

we are not making this stuff up...

consider for a moment ,

does it sound like , if there is a : 003 , 004 ,005,006,007 , 009 , 0010 ,0012,0013 .......that there wouldn't BE a 008?



Please ...think about it .

if you do not like the simplicity of a gauge that hold around a pipe maybe you get a hobo or Azel or whatever

..

Dual Zone Digital Temperature Gauge(thermometer) with 2 sensor probes



Dual Zone Digital Temperature Gauge(thermometer) with 2 sensor probes

The microprocessor-based, AZEL Technologies Digital Temperature gauge(thermometer) DS-60P represents the “next generation” in temperature gauge industries. The bold, hi-contrast LCD display ensures accurate temperature reading to the tenth degree and can be easily read from greater distances than the conventional mechanical temperature gauge.



That info is from someone who did not even say word one ....

while spendier it is well worth it ...you could say well Hmmm.. guy the digital read out says neither one of the pipes even has any flow How COULD IT be heating my home...: )))

knotgrumpy

All of this help

And no one even knows what temperature water your boiler is making. I can't find it in a single post.  These guys are good, but not telepathic.



I don't see that your installer put a single temp/pressure gauge on the system unless it is there and I've missed it.   



Go to Home Depot, Lowes, etc. and get a $20 infrared thermometer. Get a roll of masking tape.  Put strip of tape on the black pipes going into and out of the boiler.  Take a reading when the boiler is running. Write it down and post it.



The pumps have little arrows cast on them.  Put a strip of tape on the output side of each pump and take a reading.  Run your hot water and take a reading.



I'll bet with $25 total investment and no dirt under the fingernails you can give the clue that solves the problem.



knotgrumpy

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok, I filled a 5 gallon bucket with hot water in the bathtub, and in exactly 60 seconds, the bucket was filled.  The bathtub has not run out of hot water since they put the mixing valve in.  It was last night when the hot water ran out in the kitchen sink for the first time.  I have asked them several times if the Taco pump is wrong, and I explained that we got advice online, and they just refused to listen that the pump was wrong.  I will show them the charts and hope they see that, but I wouldn't know how to explain the chart to them.  Am I able to insist that they give us a new pump?  This is my first home, so my first time dealing with a heating company, and I don't quite know what else to say to them because I have said to them the last 2 times they came that the pump is wrong.  The heat seems to be able to go up 4 degrees faster now since they switched the piping, and this takes about 45 minutes, but then any degree after that takes a lot longer, more like 30 to 45 minutes per degree.  We have still been setting back at night only because we get too hot at night otherwise. 

baseboardheathelp

hot water baseboard heating

ok, I take that last post back.  I did just run out of hot water for the

bath.  When I tested it after they put in the mixing valve, it was fine

Wednesday-Friday.  But right now, after approximately 5, 5 gallon

buckets were filled with hot water, the hot water then ran out and only

cold water came out.  let me know what this means

Rich_49

This means

you should start researching the consumer fraud protection laws in Mass , contact those who administer the program directives for Mass Saves and tell them about your problems . Next look in the find a contractor place on this site and have it properly addressed by someone qualified to install or repair such a system . Then go about retrieving damages from the guy who cannot read manufacturers specs and that does not know that Taco makes anything other than a 007 .