No Header, No Equalizer, No Problem!

My guess is, if the boiler seems to run normal and doesn't blow all of it's water up into the mains and shutdown on low water, it's probably fine.

I've also seen too much water treatment cause my pressure to go from 0.25 - 0.50" to 8-10". No idea why, but it did. So I'm going to also say, low pressure in the boiler is a good sign assuming venting (oh boy) is good.

Guys, If you talk to anyone that works in a steam plant or for a company like Con Edison. Their steam quality is very important. The way that they measure steam quality or dryness is with a vortex metering device. There are two other methods but my point is I do not think anyone on this forum has ever or will ever use one. The boiler manufacturers have these devices and advise the size and length of near boiler piping accordingly.

Ah well check mate. none of us have a superheated high pressure steam plant to test with, so the water quality must not matter? come on!

My point is that if you do not have the equipment no matter how smart or well trained you are you really do not know.

I visited a 32 unit building last week at the request of my heating maintenance company. The boiler supplied steam and hot water. I do not believe it was in the best interest of the Coop board to estimate the hot water usage like everyone else. I used an ultrasonic clamp on flow meter and a data logger to tell me exactly what is going on in that building so I could properly tell the contractors what the peak usage was. So they could chose the correct boiler and water coils. I do not think anyone on this site owns a vortex steam metering equipment or would install one in their or clients system. I was not trying to in any way put any one down.

Oddly enough, in terms of accounting for all the energy inputs and losses, and figuring what is truly a loss and all that, working with a small (relatively) system such as a residence is far more difficult than working with a power system. Not only are there more paths for energy to go, but they are more significant in the smaller systems.

Also there is a real problem both with defining the terms used — efficiency means different things to different people, for instance, and there is no real harm to that except it makes it hard to discuss — but there are major problems in defining the system with which one is working.

"Lost" BTUs is a marvelous example, and trust me I'm not trying to stir up trouble here. Depending on how the system is defined, for residential heating, one can argue that the only lost BTUs is the heat content of the stack gas where it exits the building envelope. But with another definitionone can state that any heat which doesn't turn up in a radiator is lost. Then you can go on and say that the heat left in the boiler when the burner stops firing is lost. And so on. And everyone is right — by their definition (implied or stated) as to what the system is — even though the numbers they come up with are radically different.

In the commercial world they talk about "fuel to steam" efficiency. The # of BTUs from the fuel versus the # of lbs of steam produced over a given time.

Could be a new video for @ethicalpaul 🤔🤔

Plug all your vents, run the boiler, clock the gas meter and measure the condensate produced for a given time. Then do it with the vents installed.

Would be tough to collect the condensate without losing steam though

Either an electromagnet flow meter or ultrasonic flow meter for partial filled pipe would need to be put into the condensate return lines to attempt to measure condensate return quantity.

I thought the questions here, at least the contentious ones were whether piping leading to high steam velocities 1) can produce steam with a higher water content (say 5% vs 2%) and,

2) whether this does or does not matter in the btu's required to keep a house at a given level of comfort

Question one I am not sure is completely answered b the experiments because the experiments rely on being able to see visually the difference. I at least have no idea what % of water content difference becomes visually apparent.

Question two requires some kind of quantification of the btu usage for a given amount of heat transferred to the living area for comfort. That too remains an open question. I think the hypothesis for both questions was NO but I have not seen quantified proof through these experiments. I do give @ethicalpaul credit though since he has tried as hard as anyone. Would love to see the next steps to proof.

To which I might add — the only practical problem resulting from excessive liquid — however it might have gotten there — in the steam flow is collection at points of poor drainage and water hammer.

My position is and always will be that you cannot make measurements in a steam system or any other unless you have the proper equipment and know how to use it.

I agree with @ARobertson13 — but also with @ethicalpaul . The answer to @ethicalpaul 's question is — only if you do nothing to extract heat from it. Under otherwise adiabatic conditions (no heat transfer) any anergy loss in the steam flow will result in condensation, if you start with saturated steam. Which we normally do. As soon as you add superheat, the game changes — a lot.

I think the debate surrounding @ARobertson13's comment is quite valid, but for most of us is overridden by practical considerations: does it matter? This is very much the same kind of thing which I dealt with for years as a practicing engineer: the distinction between book or continuing ed. learning and boots on the ground learning. I admit to being rather biased about that, being an ancient fossil… who got his licenses the hard way, in the field!.

Too many variables, @Captain Who !

"The problem with steam heating is that too many contractors and others associated with it do not really know their trade."

Really? Granted, some don't. However, I know some right here on the Wall who most assuredly do…

Mattmich, you are spot on, so I won’t quarrel with you but perhaps quibble with you.

Getting rid of oil in a new boiler after it is installed is not merely a long term problem as you are experiencing, it is a Sisyphean task. In my 4th season, I skim my Peerless boiler every 8-10 weeks for 35-45 mins. I did use washing soda to flush the boiler 2-3 times in the first season and once during the second season. I also skimmed the boiler no fewer than a dozen times during the first year and perhaps half a dozen times during the second year.

The way it behaves now, for a couple of weeks after skimming, the rads heat quite rapidly and quietly @0 psi and little surging. But that gradually fades as a pink colored oil slick appears to float on top of the water in the sight glass. This is accompanied by 3-4” of drop in the water level and the pressure reaching 0.6psi. The boiler runs longer to hit the set temp. I had severe rust problem with this boiler and believed that the latter might be the reason for wet steam and the gurgling rads, but thanks to Paul, the 8-way seems to working after 3 yrs of use. Now I am skeptical that it is rust and am inclined think it is oil. The sight glass water is clear.

The downside of skimming your boiler with clockwork precision means you have to add fresh water to the boiler, which adds chlorine and oxygen that cause more rust, and to combat that rust you add more 8-Way, which in turn reduces rust, but then the oil is back and it is time to skim again and so you follow your instincts and mindlessly repeat the process. There must be an escape velocity to leave this orbit. Any suggestions?

Before I proceeded to game this, I posed this dilemma to the latest version of Claude LLM, reputed to have reasoning capabilities, and it dutifully responded with a witty rejoinder- keep skimming, it builds character.

Separating water from fuel is easy, its just a cup that the fuel flows through. The water drops to the bottom of the cup while the system is in operation. I would say getting the oil off the top of the water in a boiler while it is boiling and misbehaving is more difficult.

Part of the reason I skim the boiler 2-3 times during the season is that my MOM vents are stuck open as a result of rust particles carried by the steam. The Ventrites on the other hand are stuck closed, despite the fact that they both have floats. Most of the time washing with water restores them until it doesn’t and I have to buy new ones.

I did get 2 drips installed 3 months after replacing the boiler, but this time, I had the installer use soap to get rid of all cutting oil and had him use minimal amount of goop at the start of the thread along with teflon to minimize contamination from the new joints. This was the second time I used washing soda in the first season.

BTW the skimming protocol I use now is to raise the level of water over the water mark and turn off the boiler while the water is very hot but not steaming. I then drain with the flow adjusted to dump 2 gallons in 35 mins. Earlier, I used to skim for over an hour, reheating the water. In one session I forced a nozzle through the 1.25” tap and washed with cold water at 15psi while draining from the bottom.

All this water used during skimming I drain completely, replace with store bought distilled water and toss in some 8-way for good measure. This gives me a chance to enjoy a well behaved steam system for a few precious weeks.

@PhilKulkarni Not sure whats going on with your system. When skimming the water should be kept as hot as possible, but not steaming (no turbulence). The skimming water line should be above any obstructions inside the boiler so the oil's exit path is not obstructed. Some folks use a pipe reducer on the end of the skim port pipe as a Dam to raise the skimming water line.

My boiler has not been skimmed in over 50 years. I wonder if you have too much 8-Way in the boiler.