New Boiler - Radiator Screaming

amishcabdriver · November 19

We recently updated our 1972 boiler to a new one as the older one was falling apart from the inside. After doing so, our bedroom radiator's steam valve whistles incredibly high as it sounds like there's a ton of air being forced out. I replaced the original Hoffman's on all 3 of the upstairs radiators with Vari-Valves, the high-pitched incredibly forceful whistling continued no matter the configuration. I then ordered some Horton #6's for the 3 vents upstairs and a #4 for one of two radiators downstairs. The forceful whistling continues. I've contacted the installers and they claim that since our system was never cleaned before & and it's old as sin, we need to "give it time to run and flush out build up from the cleaner they put in" and to reach out end of the month (it's been 3 weeks already) if it continues. What are some steps I could possibly take to alleviate this so before I call the installers, I have done everything I can.

Here are photos of the new boiler, some of the piping, Pressuretrol settings, the main vent, and I can get whatever ones may help.

KC_Jones · November 19

Can you post a picture of the rating sticker so we can see which boiler they installed? That will influence how wrong the piping is, because the piping is wrong. I’m just not sure what size it is as to if it’s supposed to utilize both risers.

Second, how did they size it? It sound like you have excess pressure which can be caused by an oversized boiler. Given the abysmal piping I have doubts about it being properly sized.

The pressurtrol is set far too high, that can be turned down to technically keep the pressure down, but the proper way is a properly sized boiler.

Jamie Hall · November 19

Not surprised the poor little vent is whistling. The pressure is set much too high.

And… as @KC_Jones said, there isn't much right about the near boiler piping…

pedmec · November 19

Not surprised its whistling. That piping is giving me agida.

amishcabdriver · November 19

I'm unsure of how/if they sized it as I was not part of that conversation (regretting this now).

Here's the requested information, along with photos of all of our radiators

Frankfog2 · November 19

someone else can chime in and correct me if i’m wrong but those radiator vents should be lower/closer to the bottom. idk if that’s causing your issues. but from other posts, the vents are typically lower

KC_Jones · November 19

There should be a sticker somewhere with the model number on it. Should be a fairly large sticker. It might be inside the front cover, I’m not sure where Burnham puts them.

KC_Jones · November 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1821046#Comment_1821046

This looks like a 2 pipe system, so none of the vents should be there. That’s good for the OP with noise, but it also makes the boiler sizing even more critical.

Some of the vents look new, so it could be the contractor that did the other stuff wrong, did that too.

bburd · November 19

Those radiators sure look like they are piped for hot water, not steam. It wouldn't be the first time we've seen an installing contractor confuse the two types of systems.

KC_Jones · November 19

I’m reconsidering everything.

Are you sure this was actually a steam system?

It has several signs of originally being a hot water system.

PC7060 · November 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1821051#Comment_1821051

@KC_Jones and @bburd are right. Someone installed steam on a hot water system. ☹️☹️☹️☹️
The vent on main appears to be old so wonder how long this tragedy has been on going

KC_Jones · November 19

I've been studying the pictures some more. It was definitely a hot water system originally.

The valves are obviously hot water valves.

There is a hot water bleeder on at least one radiator we can see.

2 pipes per radiator that are very undersized for steam feeds. The under sized pipes, for me, are one of the final nails in the coffin.

Some mains in the basement that are copper and undersized for steam as well.

Vents, that not only shouldn't be there, but are in the wrong place if they were supposed to be there, so most likely added well after the system was originally installed.

All the signs are there, the problem for the OP is what do they do now? In all honesty if the contractor has walked through the house at all, and knew what they were doing, they should have seen what we are seeing and started trying to figure things out. Also, if they studied all the system piping I suspect they would have seen the piping arrangement wasn't set up for steam, talking about things that most likely exist that we haven't seen, so speculation.

AdmiralYoda · November 19

OP …. do you know any history on this setup? Was it heating with hot water before the new boiler was installed or was it converted to steam at some point before your stewardship?

Just about everything about your entire system is the culmination of years of contractors making poor decisions.

But to get your vent under control, a steam system should NEVER need to be operated above 2psi and if properly sized it will operate at OUNCES of pressure per square inch, not pounds.

Aside from the loud vent….how does the system actually heat? Does the heat reach the radiators evenly? Any banging sounds from random places?

Charlie from wmass · November 19

I'm currently on the road so this is going to seem very blunt. Your boiler is very poorly installed. The pressure needs to be as low as possible and you will need to live with short cycling to reduce the noise. Please refer to the boiler manual for the proper piping method for your boiler. This is easily accessible with your model number and the manufacturer's website if the contractors did not leave the manual with the boiler. With how badly they installed the boiler I would doubt that they properly sized it. If you have any photos of the original installation that would be helpful.

dabrakeman · November 19

Supply pipes to each radiator are also too small for steam. This should be converted back to hot water. It would probably be easier than trying to make it a functional steam system. Most of the radiators are configured with inlet and vent locations such that they would never properly fill with steam. I have only been on this site for less than 12 years but this has to be the worst #%%@^ I have seen.

Maybe it had some undersized boiler partially filling the radiators and heating well enough with the subsequently oversized radiators (sized to rooms based upon hot water, not steam). Either way, a professional HVAC company has no excuse for being this far off on their system assessment.

Charlie from wmass · November 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1821096#Comment_1821096

I see half and 3/4 inch supply pipes all the time on steam. This is a two pipe system probably vapor. The gravity hot water heating system which would have been accurate to this vintage would have been larger pipes than if they were steam.

EBEBRATT-Ed · November 19

Who knows what it originally was. Hack job.

No wonder I have anxiety.

dabrakeman · November 19

Could be but similar pipe sizes on my 1910 hot water system up north… Could be resurrected as either but would like to see some more of the original piping "remnants" in the basement.

Charlie from wmass · November 19

@dabrakeman are you sure your system isn't a steam to hot water conversion?

amishcabdriver · November 19

I just want to say thank you all for your input/ideas. It's great to have more information, even if the information makes me very sad to hear.

In regards to the system to hopefully help answer some questions, all of this is based on what I can recall from the inspection & what we uncovered in the last 2 years. Our house is from 1905 and we're in NEPA. We know a lot of the stuff is quite old. The furnace we replaced we were told was from the early 70's and the internal chamber was crumbling and falling apart (why we chose to replace), they converted it from oil to gas at some point in the last 20 years. I've included photos of it at the bottom (what ones I could find). As far as we know, it's been running steam since before the previous owner.

Like someone above said, at this point, we're just hoping to rectify this as much as possible and take whatever info we can to the installers to be like, "You need to fix this". They were barely able to get the new furnace into our basement (it's old and very narrow) and we truthfully are hoping to sell the house in the next 2-3 years due to job relocations. The system currently heats, not ideally evenly (the loud hissing radiator doesn't retain heat at all). There is a bit of banging specifically with one pipeline to the downstairs radiator, but it does heat up. The installer says is due to them putting a cleaner in the line and it's all the build up causing that essentially. I was told to call back at the end of this month if it was still making noise (I'm sure it will be).

Thanks again for all the help and info! I'm still waiting to hear back from the installer on what the current model is (at work and can't get to see where it may be on the unit)

KC_Jones · November 19

A picture of the rating sticker/plate for the new boiler would help with some of the assessment of what you have and what the proper piping should be. That sticker is inside the front panel. The front panel (circled in blue) should lift up and come out and inside should be the rating label (circled red).

Out of curiosity, how many square feet is this house?

Hot water or steam, regardless of that you have steam now, and we can move forward with that, but there are a ton of issues.

amishcabdriver · November 19

Our home is 2,300 sq ft. 2 stories. I'll work on getting the photo of the rating sticker/plate this evening once home.

Any temporary suggestions to deal with the whistling valve while delving into how bad this is?

AdmiralYoda · November 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1821141#Comment_1821141

Yes. Back the Pressuretrol down to a normal pressure level. Turn the main pressure down to 1.5psi and the differential to 1psi.

pecmsg · November 19

get someone that knows what there doing.
What town in Pa?

amishcabdriver · November 19

Ive been trying to find someone knowledgeable on this in the area. Without sharing too much, we're in Bradford County and there isn't a lot of options unfortunately in our area since we're in a smaller town.

Also, was able to get a photo of the requested rating sticker and lowered the Pressurtol to the recommended settings.

bburd · November 19

The new boiler has a capacity of 46% less than the older one, and it's probably still oversized for the load. How did the contractor size the new one?

leonz · November 20

One more thing is the skim port valve, the way they have it set is not smart and downright dangerous. The way the valve handle is set you would have to pull the handle toward the elbow and that is unsafe.

The sooner you get them back there to plumb it correctly with black iron pipe and the way the manufacturer wants it to be plumbed at no charge to you the better.

I would want you to contact Intertec and ask to speak to thier local representative about it and ask him or her to look at the installation.

amishcabdriver · November 20

I've admittedly stared at this diagram for how to do the Steam Piping & Trim for a good 30 minutes and I cannot make it make sense to identify how off the current setup is. I also looked at the closest point of contact for Intertek is almost 2 hours away.

Any recommendations for how to approach this when calling them? I obviously trust and believe the expertise of this group, but telling a local family owned shop in a small town that I received this information from the internet may not have the desired effect.

pecmsg · November 20

Tell them it's from this site!

ChrisJ · November 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1821254#Comment_1821254

I'd tell them it doesn't meet the manufacturers minimum requirements and doesn't work. If it's grossly oversized, that means you need a different boiler if you want it to actually work the way it's supposed to.

I would start nicely and try to work with them. Tell them what you've found and your concerns and see if they will help you.

You need to do a radiator survey and see what you have and then compare that to the boiler size. If you post pictures and rough dimensions of every radiator here, we can help you with that size.

If need be you may be able to get a Burnham rep in there, but you'd need to ask the contractors here about that side of things. What happens when a boiler is sized completely wrong and piped completely wrong and yet the installer refuses to fix it?

amishcabdriver · 1:43AM

Thabks for all the help. Called and shared that the noises have persisted despite my personal attempts and they said they'd have a worker out Friday (which works bc I'll be home). I'm hoping to hear out their ideas, share my concerns, and hopefully not have them try to blame this on "the cleaner" or the fact I lowered the Pressurtol (which has lessened the noise but it still persists).

KC_Jones · 3:20AM

I marked up the one picture you posted for approximately how it should be piped. You basically do not have a header currently. Red is what goes away, blue is what you need. Also anything above the water line really is supposed to be black steel pipe and threaded fittings.

New Boiler - Radiator Screaming

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