New Boiler - Radiator Screaming

KC_Jones

Well, I guessed correctly on everything. I come up with 277 sq ft. I didn't add the tiny baseboard in the bathroom as I don't know what the ratings are, but it can't be more than a couple sq ft so it's insignificant in my opinion.

That means they should have installed the IN4. The IN6 you have is 63% oversized, or giving you 116% pickup factor. The IN4 would have been absolutely perfect for what you have.

See attached for the calculations and comparison of the boiler you have to the IN4

EDR_amishcabdriver.pdf

amishcabdriver

Thanks for doing that. So, the fact that this IN6 is so grossly oversized is most likely the culprit for the issues I'm having such as the incredibly loud whistling of our steam valves & banging of the pipes? Is there a possible solution to this possibly short of total replacement? I'm just trying to have the most information to bring to the person who comes (hopefully) today.

Jamie Hall

It may be partly because the boiler is oversized. The banging may be related to the near boiler piping allowing condensate to carry into the mains — newer boilers, particularly, are rather sensitive to being piped correctly. The banging may also be sags or poor pitch in some of the mains or runouts.

The whistling vents are more likely caused by excess pressure than anything else, although if there are no main vents (or inadequate ones) that plays into it too.

The first and simplest thing to do is to verify at what pressure the boiler cuts out. It should be no more than 2 psig, and preferably lower if your pressuretrol can go lower.

amishcabdriver

I lowered the Pressurtol down to 1.5/1 based on KC_Jones advice. That helped lessen it, but they're still pretty loud/aggressive.

The main vent I hadn't thought of, and based on a quick look, it's older than I am most likely. The replumbing of the actual furnace is I feel, the absolute minimum they can do to correct this. Still waiting to hear back if they're making it out today, weather went to crap around here so everything is awry.

dabrakeman

Bigger main vent won't hurt anything and will help balancing but won't solve all your whistling issues. Less of the air will have to be forced our the radiator vents early in the cycle as more will go through the main vent likely reducing radiator whistling during this phase but once the main closes all that over abundance of steam will still then have to push air out of the takeoffs and radiators just through the radiator vents. I more of your whistling is toward end of the cycle when radiators are filled or nearly filled you can try to limit your cycle time by eliminating or breaking up setback/recoveries and depending upon your thermostat reducing swing or increasing CPM. Smaller boiler and proper near boiler piping will be needed. If someone gets out there that knows what they are talking about they may assess properly setting this up as two pipe steam and maybe get rid of the radiator vents entirely. Others would have to weigh in on the cost effectiveness of this.

amishcabdriver

Update: They came out Friday, a worker and the owner of the company. He agreed that the furnace was too much for the house but claims this is intentional due to the length of piping in the house, something to do with making sure it gets enough water, and the ability to downsize is easier than upsize if we ever add more radiators. They removed two of the burners and capped them within the furnace. They also skimmed the system and showed me how to do this. He did say the main valve is shot and that shouldve been handled at the install. I brought up the piping issue and lack of header and got a, "We'll go step by step" type of response. They also said that my furnace sounds like it's getting too much air on the intake, so they're coming back sometime in the next week to install the main vent and take the furnace apart to make sure something didn't get knocked loose in transport.

The owner apologized for the main vent & noise not properly being addressed at install. He seemed firm and committed to his knowledge of Burnham boilers with the size he chose. He said they'll make it right, so I'm willing to give him this chance as he didn't seem malicious nor arrogant with his reasons. So for now, we wait and see what they do and if it fixes it.

Thank you all again for all of the helpful information and for helping me advocate for things to get fixed, even if it wasn't the complete removal of the unit and repiping of it.

EzzyT

where in NEPA are you located? If you’re right over the border from NJ and the contractor doesn’t make it right give me a call. I’ll go there and take a look at see what can be done to get this right.

amishcabdriver

Unfortunately, I'm up west of Binghamton NY, just across the border in PA. It's quite a haul from the NJ border. I appreciate it though

KC_Jones

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1822581#Comment_1822581

For me, he’s either BSing, or just doesn’t know. I question the knowledge when they can’t size it correctly. There are generous factors built into those rating to cover piping. A properly sized IN4 has enough factor for 140’ of 2” piping. I’m going to guess you don’t have close to that. With the IN6, it’s hundreds of feet. Are you planning on adding an addition to the house and expand the system? If not the additional radiators comment makes no sense. Also made me chuckle, like he’s making future plans for your house, on your behalf.

One step at a time makes no sense. The piping is wrong, it’s not really a discussion topic, there’s a picture in the manual showing what’s correct and that isn’t it. So is this like trial piping and he’s going to rip it out and do it over as part of the process? That wouldn’t make sense at all.

I would also suggest you contact Burnham about them disconnecting 2 burners. That very likely will void the warranty for the boiler if the contractor didn’t get their approval for it. To be very clear on this comment, you contact Burnham, I wouldn’t take the contractors word for it.

My assessment, they are doing a few things to cover up until you go away out of frustration. And yes, I’m sure they are being super nice while they are doing it. Nice won’t make it work.

This lack of knowledge in my area is why I ended up replacing my own boiler, I just had zero confidence in any of the local contractors.

I wish you luck.

STEAM DOCTOR

Piping is horrible. No two ways about it. Maybe try to get the manufacturer involved

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1822685#Comment_1822685

I'd be really surprised if Burnham was ok with 2 burners being removed.

Charlie from wmass

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1822712#Comment_1822712

They won't be. But sometimes you just need to do it.

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1822714#Comment_1822714

Being someone that is actually out there doing this (installing boilers, working with people etc), what would you recommend the OP do in this situation?

Charlie from wmass

Advice is get boiler properly piped as best as you can with the copper supply pipes of the system. Drop the pressure of the steam. Then plug one burner orifice and see if it is liveable in operation. If not plug a second one. This is what needs done if the original installer won't replace boiler with the proper size boiler. The horse left the barn, I can't worry about the door now.

STEAM DOCTOR

And do combustion test after modifying burners.

Charlie from wmass

There isn't anything you can adjust on that boiler besides supply pressure to the burner. Excess air is going to be ridiculous. But as long as it doesn't soot up no one will notice or care besides the poor owner. But it is still cheaper than buying a new boiler. Becoming a less idealistic these days. I understand why old tradespeople are grumpy more every day.

PC7060

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1822723#Comment_1822723

stupid becomes toxic when your over 50!

STEAM DOCTOR

Still good to test. If anything is crazy out of wack on the combustion test, you know to put the burners back in.

pedmec

You need to fix the near boiler piping. By doing what he is doing is just praying he gets the whistling down to an acceptable level to which you will agree to. Even if he can satisfy you by doing what he is doing You will still going to have high fuel bills. there is no way around it. Basements with steam boilers are always warm even insulated but having copper piping on your boiler is only going to increase the heat into the basement. Never mind the wet steam its going to generate.

And considering the manufacturer and there castings issues i would definitely get the piping changed. I don't know how anybody else feels but i wouldn't service this boiler or any boiler unless the near boiler piping was properly installed. I don't need a customer blaming me for some noise or leak that was happening before I got there but they didn't notice it until after i worked on it. I've done enough PM's on Burnham's that the first thing i do is flood them.

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1822730#Comment_1822730

Surely not a bad idea since you'd have a tester on hand anyway, but realistically, what could be out of whack? Excess air/oxygen is guaranteed I would imagine, anything else?

KC_Jones

I think it's also useful for the OP to understand, steam, when running properly, should be silent. You shouldn't hear a bang, creak, groan, nothing but warmth. I'd say at most maybe a hair of air "noise" from a vent, but it would be at the level that you'd have to catch it in the act and listen carefully, not screaming as they state.

I think steam gets a bad reputation as making noise in some way. I think it's valuable for the OP to understand what the expectation is, and that is essentially, silence.

Charlie from wmass

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1822738#Comment_1822738

All boilers should be checked for combustion. I'm just saying it is very different checking this style of boiler now that they have removed most of the adjustments then it is checking high efficiency boilers or power burners.

Charlie from wmass

Stupidity becomes exceptionally resilient after 50. I see it everyday in my trade. If they haven't learned how to do it right by 50 there is a very little chance that they will change.

STEAM DOCTOR

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1822738#Comment_1822738

In theory, an undersized flame, can cause low flue temps and drafts issues.. Removing two burners its not likely to make a big difference.

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1822779#Comment_1822779

thanks! How low of a flue temp is too low?

pedmec

In my experience with combustion analysis anywhere in the 200 degree range. I used to do a lot of fan assisted furnaces and they would run anywhere from 225-275 temp range. And if they used single wall flue you would always see corrosion at the joints. Nobody would use B-vent as recommended in the instruction manual because they wouldn't bother to read the manual. thats the range i would see most damage but its just from testing

Jamie Hall

If you keep it over about 300 you will get less condensation on the flue… but you don't need it hotter than that, as @pedmec said.

ToddfromAkron

I’m so sorry, but it seems like everything was installed by idiots.
-I agree, it was probably steam when built because that’s pretty much all they used in the early 1900s. And the near boiler piping appears to have been steam originally.
-some of the radiator supply pipes seem a little small, but that’s probably ok.
-ALL of the steam traps (located on the return side (bottom) of each radiator) have been removed and simple bleeder taps placed. This is the evidence that the system WAS converted from steam to hydronic at some point.
-regardless of steam vs hydronic, NONE of those air vents should have been installed on the radiators. It’s a 2-pipe system. Air vents are only for single pipe systems. )not including main vents, of course).
-back to the missing steam traps. Without those, steam will flood the return system rather than staying in the radiators. This will cause rads that either don’t heat or heat unevenly. It’ll also cause the system to hammer and bang.
-whomever installed the boiler did it so poorly that he should lose his license. I don’t even know where to start. Other comments have already addressed some of these. Any person who recommends increasing the pressure to 5 should immediately be told to leave and never return.
-my recommendation… don’t let these clowns back into your house yet. Quickly find a knowledgeable steam person from this website and PAY them for a complete assessment of your system. Then contact the current installer and see what they will do. Perhaps you can get them to just remove everything they installed. No matter what they say, I wouldn’t let them “fix” the problem. This very well could end up in court.

-purchase and read Dan Holohan’s book “so you have steam heat “ and read it a couple times.

-I’m so sorry this happened to you. I can’t imagine what you’re feeling right now. Contractors should make things better, not worse.

Good luck,

Todd

NP1

I had an issue with an install and Burnham got involved. You just have to pick the phone up and make that call. I believe the regional rep will contact the installer and both will come out to visit. Also the boiler manual had the installation instruction, pipe size etc and pictures of how it should be piped. I don’t understand the removal of 2 burners - you just took a big pot of water off the high burner and put it on the simmer burner. What does that do for performance? Call Burnham. https://www.usboiler.net/contact.html

Lance

While I agree with a lot here, there is a misnomer that all steam pipe above the water line need be steel. It can be copper as long as allowances are made to avoid expansion that could affect joints or create stress on the boiler and boiler sections. And this rule also applies to water based systems. Plumbing is a lot more than just connecting pipes and fittings. While I prefer CI fittings and steel pipe for boilers supply manifolds, even they need swing joints, or twist joints to prevent damage due to temperature changes. The reason customers have so much bad work, is because so many people want to pay less hours and for poor labor and less for poor materials and fewer materials. Its sad enough we have many who should not be in this trade.

pedmec

Copper on steam should never be used "above the water line". Copper really has no place in a steam system. It's for amateurs or lazy contractors. Although most contractors will feel the the contraction and expansion of copper is a major issue, I concern myself more with system performance. Copper has very little density. This little density increases the amount of heat transfer from the heating medium to the ambient temperature of the room in which the copper resides. In a hot water system no big deal. In a steam system its a very big deal. Your going to cause your steam to condense faster as it leaves the boiler. This will increase your "wet steam". No way around it. it's how baseboard heat operates. Now depending on how badly the near boiler piping is done this could create a very noisy system and high fuel bills.

Waher

ProPress copper with ample swing joints and thicker insulation should work fine in theory other than galvanic corrosion if brass/bronze fittings aren’t provided to isolate the copper from direct contact with steel/iron. By the time one does all of that a job would likely be equal or more expensive than doing proper threaded black pipe.

If someone had a dump truck full of money I can’t help thinking well insulated threaded brass/bronze pipe would be the best material for a steam system.

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1823094#Comment_1823094

Maybe for the boiler.

There doesn't seem to be much of a concern of steam piping or even radiators rusting / rotting.

fixitguy

A must read is The Lost Art of Steam Heating

Charlie from wmass

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1824437#Comment_1824437

I think "Got Steam?" Is a must read for most people. I think the Lost Art is a great resource and read for those who need ALL the information. IMHO.

AdmiralYoda

"Radiator Screaming". Is it possible that this radiator might be Italian? It could think it is whispering but to everyone else it might sound like it is screaming!

Sorry…my wife is Italian. 😎

joeshrapnel

Anyone heard from OP? I would like to hear how things are going.. New here and I posted once a few months ago but resolved my problem. I've been interested in OP's plight and all the great information on here.

amishcabdriver

Update: Contacted US Boiler as ya'll suggested. Long story short; they very quickly confirmed what you've all shared (piped incorrectly, oversized unit). I took this information and forwarded it along to the contractor who did the job and made sure to CC the rep at US Boiler (who had nothing but positive things to say about all of you on this forum and the moment I mentioned the forum went, "oh yeah, you've talked to the experts then") on that email as well.

The contractor came out the end of this past week and redid the piping as KC_Jones shared (the US Boiler rep used your exact photo with the blue & red lines). Through conversation with the guy doing the work, it really does seem to be all due to a complete lack of familiarity with new steam systems and the infrequency of them where we live (most everyone updated to central, splits, or water around here). Tested the system and it was running damn near silent. They told me to call back on Monday if there are still any issues and they'd immediately come out.

Over the weekend, as is my luck, we have some slight hammering that's popped up and a little whistling still on the steam vents where it appears to be sucking in air but both extremely minor compared to the circus we had before. My best guess is the main vent they put in (new one) still isn't enough? I plan on calling them first thing tomorrow to get them back out here.

So improvements thanks to all of the amazing help you all provided, they haven't dared charge me a dollar for all this extra work, and for the first time last night in 2 months, I slept without ear plugs in, so thanks for that too.

LRCCBJ

Excellent result.

Can you post some photos?

Charlie from wmass

The cost to redo it was cheap education for the contractor really. If they learn from this they will be on their way to being a capable steam contractor.