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Best small gas steam boiler

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Comments

  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,665
    KC_Jones said:

    To the best of my knowledge Burnhams reasoning is that they do not have any way of knowing the expertise of the installer. That being said they do not want to assume responsibility for any failure.

    I am assuming they have never seen some of the steam piping that has been applied to their boilers?
    Maybe they have and that's their reasoning.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaulratio1Matthias
  • Dave0176Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,095
    edited December 2018
    Dave0176 said:

    Weil-McLain is my top choice, however I’ve installed Burnham Independence boilers, Crown boilers and Peerless. My opinion is you got to be careful with Burnhams on the east coast, there very sensitive to high chloride water. I’m not a fan of Utica, Dunkirk or any ECR gas steam boilers with side steam outlets.

    Depending on where you live Weil-McLain also has a rebadged boiler called Williamson, Thermoflo, Union Steam and Genesis. These are identical to the EG series except the dark green paint and sell for about 20-30% less.

    Wow, have ideas changed in only 24 hours lol!!!!!!!!!!
    Weil-McLain will not even be considered on a job now!!!!!
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,510
    Wow Dave, that really shows how strong you feel about the two supplies! Have you ever done a single pipe job?

    Even my junky dunkirk with a single 2” side tap heats my house quietly and pretty well now that it’s vented and I mostly fixed a slope issue

    I’m still aiming for the Williamson 30. Maybe I can find a new old stock 😂
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • Danny ScullyDanny Scully Member Posts: 1,220
    edited December 2018
    I’ve been told by Burnham it’s because the megasteam has a positive pressure firebox. And that they also noticed a loss in efficiency with their minimal testing of it.
    ethicalpaul
  • CanuckerCanucker Member Posts: 590
    > @ethicalpaul said:
    > Wow Dave, that really shows how strong you feel about the two supplies! Have you ever done a single pipe job?
    >
    > Even my junky dunkirk with a single 2” side tap heats my house quietly and pretty well now that it’s vented and I mostly fixed a slope issue
    >
    > I’m still aiming for the Williamson 30. Maybe I can find a new old stock 😂

    Can't speak for @Dave0176 but with only one outlet your placement options are limited. What Weil-mcclain saved on tapping and plugs, you're probably going to pay more for pipe to fit it properly in place. Definitely not passing their savings on to the consumer
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    ethicalpaul
  • Dave0176Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,095
    > @ethicalpaul said:
    > Wow Dave, that really shows how strong you feel about the two supplies! Have you ever done a single pipe job?
    >
    > Even my junky dunkirk with a single 2” side tap heats my house quietly and pretty well now that it’s vented and I mostly fixed a slope issue
    >
    > I’m still aiming for the Williamson 30. Maybe I can find a new old stock 😂

    Which Williamson Paul EG30 or GSA300,000??
    Williamson uses GSA as their model number followed by the BTU rating.

    If it’s the GSA75,000 yes in the past I’ve used one riser, a single 3” riser to a 3” drop header. Worked very well.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,510
    edited December 2018
    Thanks @Dave0176 yes I mistakenly used the WM number. I meant the GSA75000. The tap is 2" unless I'm mistaken, so you enlarged it at the boiler to 3" to give lots of room to the steam, correct? I was mistaken! It's a 3" supply. I've been looking at too many boilers!

    Speaking of mistakes--AFSupply is trying to make it hard to choose the right boiler. They state the input BTU but then say it "pumps out" that value. To me "pumps out" better be talking about the output BTU! :smiley:


    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 13,663
    edited December 2018

    I’ve been told by Burnham it’s because the megasteam has a positive pressure firebox. And that they also noticed a loss in efficiency with their minimal testing of it.

    My BS meter goes off the scale when I hear this.

    They make gas burners that can fire positive pressure boilers. They really do. Look at the Solaia, for example, which is available with the EZ-Gas. That boiler runs positive pressure, just like the MegaSteam.

    And "minimal testing" means they didn't really try, doesn't it? Look at the Solaia's sell sheet, for example:

    http://cdn.columbiaheating.com.s3.amazonaws.com/certificates/solaia 4 pg 2017.pdf

    There are some minor AFUE differences, but the gas ratings are still better than atmospheric boilers will ever be. The MegaSteam would blow away any atmospheric when equipped with a good power gas burner.

    Maybe Burnham is more beholden to the oil companies than we know?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    ethicalpaul
  • coelcanthcoelcanth Member Posts: 89
    75,000 is the input not the output..
    don't go by the ad copy..
    that was probably written by an uninformed web designer ...
    here's the link to the full manufacturer's specsheet

    https://www.afsupply.com/media/catalog/product/specsheets/2299_will_gsa_spread1012_printr3.pdf

    Thanks @Dave0176 yes I mistakenly used the WM number. I meant the GSA75000. The tap is 2" unless I'm mistaken, so you enlarged it at the boiler to 3" to give lots of room to the steam, correct? I was mistaken! It's a 3" supply. I've been looking at too many boilers!

    Speaking of mistakes--AFSupply is trying to make it hard to choose the right boiler. They state the input BTU but then say it "pumps out" that value. To me "pumps out" better be talking about the output BTU! :smiley:


    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,510
    Hi folks-- I thought of another question related to this thread. After installing my new boiler, I'm considering surprising my wife with a hydronic radiant bathroom floor potentially using the condensate from the boiler. I have read https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/how-to-run-a-hot-water-zone-off-a-steam-boiler/ a few times and it looks good.

    Is there a boiler that is especially useful for this kind of use, such as containing a hot water coil or at least taps that I can use to circulate the water up to the floor?

    The article says you can use a heat exchanger or not...does anyone have a strong preference? I prefer simplicity, but I also could see benefits to not running boiler water up 20 feet into the house.

    Thank you all so much
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 13,663
    edited December 2018
    Depending on what type of tubing you use, running steam boiler water may not be a good idea. You'd need a heat exchanger. Also, boiler water will be too hot for radiant. You'd need to mix it down somehow. Lots of complication for such a small room...............
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,510
    edited December 2018
    Thanks, I feel good about having a heat exchanger. Any ideas for good boilers for this? In our latest episode i was still pointing toward the Williamson 075
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • Dave0176Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,095

    Thanks, I feel good about having a heat exchanger. Any ideas for good boilers for this? In our latest episode i was still pointing toward the Williamson 075

    @ethicalpaul you can’t beat the price of the Williamson. Here is how I did one last year.


    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
    ethicalpaul
  • FredFred Member Posts: 8,370
    edited December 2018
    @Dave0176 , it has been mentioned from time to time that the WM/Williamson boilers are a lot lighter in weight than others, like the Peerless products. Has anyone ever measured the wall thickness of the sections of various boiler brands and determined how that affects longevity? It seems like initial acquisition cost is attractive but only if the boiler lasts equally as long, across the various brands. I know there are a ton of variables associated with boiler life but construction has to also play a big role in its life.
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,510
    Nice! I love that tiny drop header!

    Does it have any tappings or hot water loop to help me with my radiant floor zone mentioned above?

    Thanks @Dave0176
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • Dave0176Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,095

    Nice! I love that tiny drop header!



    Does it have any tappings or hot water loop to help me with my radiant floor zone mentioned above?



    Thanks @Dave0176

    No with Williamson what you see is what you get, you have to move over to Weil-McLain so you can order the boiler with tankless coil.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
    ethicalpaul
  • Dave0176Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,095
    Fred said:

    @Dave0176 , it has been mentioned from time to time that the WM/Williamson boilers are a lot lighter in weight than others, like the Peerless products. Has anyone ever measured the wall thickness of the sections of various boiler brands and determined how that affects longevity? It seems like initial acquisition cost is attractive but only if the boiler lasts equally as long, across the various brands. I know there are a ton of variables associated with boiler life but construction has to also play a big role in its life.

    Hi @Fred according to the Peerless rep the 63 casting is about a quarter of an inch thick. The WMs are no where near that heavy.
    A 4 section 63 is about 80-100 lbs heavier then the 4 section EG
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
    ethicalpaul
  • STEAM DOCTORSTEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,032
    The peerless boilers are a bit taller. About 2.5" or something like that. Might contribute to the extra weight.
  • BoonBoon Member Posts: 238
    edited December 2018
    @ethicalpaul during our hydronic install we opted for electric grids for bathroom floor heat and electric towel bars, and we're glad we did. There were many-many times, much of the shoulder seasons, when we used/wanted/needed floor heat but the boiler wasn't running. Electric floor heat & towel bar heat on a programmable thermostat worked really well for us.

    edit: we didn't use grids; we used Schluter®-DITRA-HEAT-E-HK
    DIY'er ... ripped out a perfectly good forced-air furnace and replaced it with hot water & radiators.
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,510
    That makes a lot of sense, @Boon but I'm not sure I could handle the philosophical quandary that would result from running 20 or 30 amps of juice while I had a hot boiler sitting in the basement!

    But I'll think about it!
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 13,663

    That makes a lot of sense, @Boon but I'm not sure I could handle the philosophical quandary that would result from running 20 or 30 amps of juice while I had a hot boiler sitting in the basement!

    But I'll think about it!

    Also, we've known cases where electric floor radiant has quit working after a few years. Then you have to tear up the floor to fix it. If you just have to have it, put a radiator in the room as well so you won't freeze.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,510
    There's already a radiator in there but I'm renovating that bathroom and I know my wife would love warm feet
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 13,663
    Simple. Keep the radiator and install the electric floor.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,510
    So you’d run electrical rather than hydronic?
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • KoanKoan Member Posts: 435
    @PMJ What are you now using rather than the solenoid? I had difficulty finding something with low enough cracking pressure.
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 13,663

    So you’d run electrical rather than hydronic?

    It depends. Running hydronic radiant off a steam boiler adds a lot of components which increases the complication actor. See my earlier post. But the pipes will last if you're not running nasty water in them.

    Electric radiant in-floor mats have been known to fail after a few years.

    This is probably just me, but I like to keep things simple and easily repairable- especially if I'm the one who has to maintain them.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • SuperJSuperJ Member Posts: 576
    edited December 2018
    Electrical infloor, especially if just done for warming under tile actually doesn't use that many watts per square foot. I agree that many of the people I know with electric infloor have had it fail within a couple years.

    Personally, I have a well placed panel rad that faces the shower area, it does a great job keeping surfaces comfortable in my bathroom with out heating the floors. My daughters actually thought I had installed infloor heat when I first enabled it last year, because the floor temperature was so much warmer than it had been.
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,510
    Thanks @Steamhead and @SuperJ

    > This is probably just me, but I like to keep things simple and easily repairable- especially if I'm the one who has to maintain them.

    I agree, but I'm trying to weigh that against your statement that the electric floors fail, and those don't seem too repairable, being underneath my tile or whatever :smiley:

    Maybe a panel radiator is best...the little wall-mount one I have is pretty good, but it is putting about 1/2 of its heat into the exterior wall space and the riser likewise.

    I think I will put the pex into the subfloor and run the lines to the basement just in case. Thanks again!
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 5,081
    I have a 22 EDR Sunrad right beside the tub and that little fella does a fine job of making it comfortable when you step out of the shower.

    Two things help the Sunrad do it's job. First the pipe feeding that little fella runs under the floor right next to the tub. Second is my 3 degree setback ends about 40 minutes before I get up.

    The first helper was done back when the previous owners completely overhauled that bathroom back in the 70's, the second was when I programmed my setback thermostat

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    ethicalpaul
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