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sump pump back up system
what would be better for a sump pump back up system. A dual pump system such as a Liberty 441-10a system, or an Auxiliary power system such as a Pump sentry 822PS? With either one you have to supply your own deep cycle battery, but it seems to me that the labor is a lot less with the power system, and if the existing primary pump is in good shape the final installed cost to the homeowner would be about the same with either set up. I didn't know if anyone had any strong feelings either way as to which was the better option.
Thanks to all
Comments
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With the Liberty you have a back up pump and power outage protection? It may flip back and forth to put equal run time on the pumps??
Sounds like the Pump Sentry is just a power outage system. So if the one pump fails and power is out??
How much protection do you want? $$
Are you a lucky person?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
if you have municipal water, the eductor type water powered pumps are probably the best backup. if the battery has failed since the last outage you have no pump and you will have to recharge the battery during a prolonged outage. the eductor costs more to run but you're not replacing a battery every 5 or 10 years.
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Start off by defining the failure mode you are trying to protect against. The two systems mentioned protect against entirely different failure modes, so they are not comparable in any way.
A pump failure? OK, then dual ALTERNATING pumps, with an alarm set at the level where the backup pump turns on, is the way to go. (most alarms are set way too high, by the way). The Liberty unit you note is NOT such a system.
A power failure? That sort of assumes the power is out but the pump is working. The Pump Sentry seems to do that, and so does the Liberty — the difference being the Liberty has a second pump running off the battery. Either would be a good choice solely for a power failure.
The water eductor — basically a jet pump — which @mattmia2 mentioned is an excellent choice for a power failure scenario — if your water supply stays on.
But — as I say, first define what failure mode or modes you are trying to protect against.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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Figured its also worth mentioning this for whatever you end up with:
A backup pump that doesn't also run during normal operation should to be routinely tested. If a pump sits for a long time without operating, it can quickly fail when running in it's backup capacity due to seal faces sticking together and then breaking when it starts up after sitting for so long.
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A comment relative to "Backup" pumps" and maintenance. my humble opinion, there really is no such critter. I've designed a few dozen systems — granted, larger — over the years and also run systems.
Dual pumps, yes. Quite common. But they are DUAL pumps. Either pump is capable of doing the required job. They are arranged with automatic level controls, and the lead pump alternates with EVERY cycle. The levels are set as follows, from dry or near empty going up.. 1. Lead pump off. 2. Lead pump on. 3. Lag pump off. 4. ALARM. 5. Lag pump on.
Any other arrangement and two things WILL happen, both bad. First, One of the pumps will fail to operate. Two, you won't know about it until both pumps fail.
I've seen that failure mode in systems ranging from humble little sump pumps in someone's basement to small sewage ejector pumps where the septic system is uphill from the house to million gallons per day water supply and wastewater systems.
The two keys to success are simple: the pumps alternate lead and lag on every cycle — and the ALARM goes nuts BEFORE the lag pump is called on.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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You can probably find a control with built in exercise functions for the pumps
Maybe even a system that can be monitored and alarm to an app
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
we have the same issue with multi lamp projectors. no one notices that the other lamps have failed until the last lamp fails.
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A proper duplex system with lag alarm that is audible in places other than right next to the pumps is always the best way to go.
Unfortunately most homeowner scale sump pits that I've seen are just large enough to drop a single pump in. so sometimes you just gotta make do with what's available
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Sadly true. So where you have just that one cramped sump pump pit (which also may mean that the pump endures a lot of cycling), as you say you just have to live with it. High water alarm in the basement or whatever, and keep everything which might get damaged well raised off the floor…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
In addition to water powered eductor find an air powered venturi. You may have an engine powered compressor when you need it. In my day it was all gasoline which is a pain to keep fresh. Nowadays you can get propane powered engines. Murphy's Law promises that either you lose power or sump pump goes on strike just when you need it. I once saw a donkey boiler at a rural property.
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Wouldn't just running a generator to run your normal pumps make more sense than a lpg powered air compressor?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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I want to get a rechargeable generator, so I can go completely carbon-free.
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i have enough trouble finding someone that can fill a propane tank that is open when I need it when there isn't a power outage. propane seems like a terrible fuel source. I figure given my rate of gasoline consumption that I would use about 25 # of propane a day. It is a lot easier to find a gas station than a propane distributor after a disaster.
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If you're taking a tank somewhere to be filled it's not big enough for a reasonable sized generator.
My dad never has trouble getting his 500 gallon tank filled whenever it's needed.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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unless there is a huge efficiency drop off in propane, a 100# tank would probably take me through the longest outage that we have had which was 4 days. I go through around 5 gallons of gas in a day. A pound of propane is equal to about .18 gallons of gas so that is 111# of propane. I have a 5kw generator but it is running at more like 500w most of the time, the 5kw is mostly for motor starting. It is stupid easy to add propane or natural gas to a gasoline generator. Adding a tap to connect it to the natural gas line to my grill is probably the more practical solution. Then there is the complication that a generator in most applications is only going to draw its full rated volume of gas for a few seconds or less when a motor starts.
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I'm picturing your typical 13-25k generator used as a whole house generator.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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How do I obtain gasoline when there's no electricity?
Won't you use an engine driven air compressor more often than a backup pump?
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if the dairy queen has a generator, hopefully some of the gas stations have a generator. although gasoline is pretty trivial to transfer with a hand pump. not so much the case for propane.
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Your Dairy Queen sells gas?!?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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gasoline even with stabil doesn’t last long.
LP generators always start 1st try
Tri fuel inverter standby generators are the rage around here
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
turning a gasoline engine in to a tri fuel engine just involves putting an orifice block between the carb and air cleaner and adding a gas regulator. you can buy a kit for a couple hundred bucks.
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Overall true, but keep in mind the demand regulators are known to leak even when not in use. Not necessarily due to a defect, but because even the slightest breeze can cause them to feed. I have no idea how much, or if it really matters but from what I've seen any half way decent design is setup so the fuel is cut off completely when the engine shuts down.
On my own build I used an oil pressure switch. If the pressure drops below a certain amount it shuts a solenoid off on the NG line feeding the demand regulator.
This also comes in handy if the engine loses oil pressure.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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