When to NOT use sharkbite? A question
Comments
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this brand has code approval , I imagine others do also. They can be concealed and buried!
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
To each his own: some of us were taught doing the best job possible irrespective of how "hard" it is. Others were taught "just get it done..its good enough" Different philosophies of life. Mad Dog
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Good Morning All.
I have read (and re-read) every post. Thank you all! Seriously!
I was afraid of (and try to avoid) starting post that will start debate, but then again, maybe there is good in it…? I dunno…
There really would be no danger of fire (unless I was acting like a maniac). And these will be exposed. The connections will be in the center of two 30+foot stretches of 3/4 copper. One hot one cold. I guess one of the worries I would have in that, with a 7foot ceiling, is me moving stuff around down there 20-30 ft on each end and knocking one of the pipes with a 2x4 or something, shifting the pipes position, and setting off the ticking, of a ticking time bomb.
It is super good to hear people say that they TRUST the sharkbite as a solution. And having good experiences. ANd thanks for the advise and reminders about fitting them…
And this aint saying nothing against folks who were talking favorably about shark bite BUT, IF I felt confident soldering and sweating THAT is what I would do, but I don't, and that's the simple truth.
Like a dummy, I was planning on using a 3 way shark bite Tee, where all connections were the press fit type. ONE of those being PEX no less. I can AT LEAST get the type where only 2 of the connections are press fit, and the third that is PEX I can use an oetiker clamp/crimp.
Since I am here Ill ask - is there a product that will automatically close off a water supply, maybe on the water main, if a sudden DROP in pressure is detected? There is a lot of water in this basement. It is a 120yo house and is hot water rads, the previous own replaced as much of the rad heat lines with PEX (I have no idea of the 'quality' of the work although all seems well, then there is me adding things now. I was wondering if there was a device that could shut down the water supply if a major leak was detected???
Anyways, i will get some new T's that have at least a PEX crimp on one of the branches and press fit the other 2. OR,,, maybe research a bit and see if Lowes or HD rents a crimp tool for the copper to T connection as well. How does this get so complicated, lol…?
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I'm with you, Dog. I'm not part of the "race to the bottom" of the trade.
Many professionals share our thoughts on this, and that is what keeps the trade and the profession alive. Every innovation has a place in the toolbox. Wisdom, knowledge, experience and morals tell us when it's proper to use what.
The mark of a professional is one who views code requirements as minimums.
In our jurisdictions, we have never seen an inspector who would permit a sharkbite-type push fitting. No engineer I know would specify them. I wouldn't - generally because they are too easy to install improperly and because many of them are Chinese imports with horrible quality control. They are permitted by Canada's codes, and many jurisdictions in the US allow them too.
An unskilled homeowner with no money is fortunate to have a quick fix available to them. Yesteryears' Grandpas could only wrap their leaks with rags and garden hose.
Internet forums give equal space to anyone.
It's important to know your sources.
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Sorry Matt, but decades of experience sweating copper, although worthy of respect, is not proof that SharkBites fail more than copper. It's not just you, who has never once in 40 years had a sweated fitting leak, out there, there are many other plumbers out there. I don't expect you to have scientific data about these failure rates, probably no one has it. I have not seen any tiny bit of actual data that shows these fittings fail more than sweated ones, so that's where I'm at. I understand you don't agree, that's fine.
Even if you disagree with me, please don't belittle me.
PS: if you visited a brand new building 365 days a year since 1985 with never returning to a previous one, that would be 14,600. You don't need to overstate your experience, everyone here respects it.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Any fitting can fail.Its not an exclusive to shark bites.
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It's an interesting problem — and the hazards involved are, oddly, more common for plumbing and roofing than electrical. That said, to refuse to use this type of fitting or that one really isn't very helpful. The value of evaluating, with care, the merits of using one type of fitting or another are unquestionable. The best type of fitting will vary so much with the application and situation.
I admit to being vaguely amused by the comment on insurance company A fighting insurance company B. What is perhaps not noted — or obvious — is that in historic restoration work the building on which you are working is likely to not be insured for structural or contents loss at all (the standard replacement coverage) — in fact, to be uninsurable for any practical purpose (they may look like homes or churches or something of that sort — but may also be museums). What this effectively means is that any "insurance" has to be found in the craftsmanship and integrity of the workmen. And evaluating that, and the relative merits and hazards of methods to be used, is a large part of the (often thankless!) job of the individual supervising and directing the work…Makes it more interesting…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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You can't trust code approval in my opinion any longer. You have to use your own smarts.
The electrical code approves CFCI and combination breakers that are nothing but trouble because the electrical MFG beat the code panel over the head and told them how many lives would be saved if you install our junk. "you have to do this"
But the electricians know this stuff is junk and is not reliable and is expensive and cause needless call backs. I installed a new microwave a year ago and ran a dedicated 20 amp circuit with a combination breaker (because I am supposed to.) It trips randomly for no reason 4 times since last July
Look at the construction of CSST. The stuff is junk and is about as substantial as a piece of tin foil. Yet it is approved and people install it.
Gas is hazerdous, look at what NYC requires as far as permits and testing but tin foil gas pipe is ok in some areas.
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Yes there are a lot of water shut-off devices on the market now. From mild to wild. I've heard some insurance providers give you a deduction if you have one installed?
Certainly some additional piece of mind. Regardless of the type of fitting or connection.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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Cool! I'm all over this… My wife will treat me nice for it, lol
Thanks Bob! Appreciate it.
ps. I'm getting the feeling that most aren't interested in the thread anymore, as much as the HOT debate, haha.
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what happens if the sharkbite on the service side of the shutoff device blows off?
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I have 3/4" Sharkbites on either side of my whole house water filter and they feel the abusive torque when I spin the filter housing off and on monthly since 2019. They still hold water. The reason I use shark bites here is if the filter housing starts leaking, all I have to do it remove it and install a piece of precut copper to keep the water flowing while I look for a new housing.
Propress is nice because at work, I don't have to fulfill the requirements of a burn permit. And, as we found out, damn nice to have when you find a 3" tee brazed during construction leaking and a valve 50 ft away that wont hold water. We still got wet but we replaced the tee and no longer had a leak. Can't do that with a torch and my freezer only goes up to 2".
99% off my home is sweated copper but if I make changes, I'll use a propress to eliminate the risk of a fire.
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Paul..The argument you make is that Sharkbites will outlast traditional methods. I dont buy that. You also won't find me saying anywhere that Sharkbites have a catastrophic failure rate.
How old are you Paul? You sure are super-sensitive...Mad Dog
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I'm 57, but my age has nothing to do with not enjoying ad hominem attacks for my opinions or findings. That's all.
The argument you make is that Sharkbites will outlast traditional methods.
I never said that.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
What happens if the earth stops spinning tomorrow?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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the earth is spinning?!?! I thought it was flat
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12 bucks you can become a member of the flat earth society.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
i mean a disc can rotate in any number of ways.
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We love you Paul, and most of all we love the glass piping.
Nobody else would have ever done that. Incredibly fascinating.
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I know the earth isn't flat. If it were, my cat would have pushed everything off the edge long since.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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This is actually the reason I don't much care for sharkbites, o rings eventually fail, but technology keeps getting better and sometimes the old ways are not the best ways. As much as my life is characterized by old ways I have to be careful not to push where I haven't researched. I've talked to quite a few men who do some plumbing (contractors and light duty plumbing) and they all seem to have good success with sharkbites. I just don't see enough evidence to advise against it, sure it hasn't had the opportunity to fail the test of time yet, but it certainly has enough support to be a quality product. I am not a plumber, by any means, I've probably only sweated 100 joints but to me this is a pretty big gray area. Sorry for the long post, but the technical industry is highly lacking technical training and technical detailed talk. Which is what is going on here, I love the read!
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Any plumber that says "I never get leaks, Bro!!' Is a LIAR. When your soft-Soldering up tens of thousands of joints up to 4" there will be some leaks in tight spots. This is human error, not the joining system. Mad Dog
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I think I've told this story here before, but it bears repeating given the above reference to "human error" when sweating copper pipes.
In high school I once worked as a helper/gofer on a job remodeling a brownstone in Brooklyn, being done by what I now realize were not "A-team" contractors. The plumber on the job was a guy named Pete the Plumber. One of the other contractors on the job who knew Pete told us a story about another remodel job that Pete plumbed, and when they turned the water back on, all the sweated joints leaked because Pete had mistakenly used grease instead of flux.
The other story he told about Pete was the time Pete went out and bought some toilets for a job. Pete loaded the toilets into the back seat of his Caddy, then stopped on the way back to the job for some donuts. While Pete was inside getting his donuts. someone drove off with his Caddy…full of toilets.
Maybe apocryphal. But if you saw Pete, you would tend to believe those stories.
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We had a Hack contractor around here who thought he knew everything. We have all herd the stories of "not cleaning solder fittings to save time"
This job was before propress.
Before I solder a job I dump the fittings on the floor and sit on a empty bucket. With a cordless drill and a pair of gloves and fitting brushes I clean all the fittings I think I will need ahead of time. yeah, maybe go back to clean a few not many.
Well the hack thought he could save time by not cleaning new fittings. He was remodeling a school. When they turned the water on it was a shower,
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i have a scar on my left pinky that shows why the gloves are important
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this grip fittings was so good that they decided to improve it😉
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream2 -
kind of like mega press, or even L copper pipe or schedule 80 🙂
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
No the earth is shaped like a dinosaur!
https://dinosaurearthsociety.com/
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Sharkbite is the easiest type of connect to disconnect, the only thing that comes close is threaded brass. So I like them for places that are likely to be disconnected.
Sillcocks fail all the time. If you get one with a copper sweat or PEX-B connection the pipe tail will be smaller than the body of the valve and will easily go into any hole that the valve fits in. If you put a Sharkbite as the first fitting on the inside of the wall it becomes a five minute job to switch it out.
The kicker is that almost certainly the replacement sillcock is going to have slightly different dimensions than the one that was in there. With a Sharkbite all you have to do is adjust the length of the tail piece of PEX or copper. You can even cut it long, attach it, measure on the outside how much too long it is, then disconnect it and trim to length. Easy-peasy.
If the inside of the sillcock is exposed I like to have a Sharkbite quarter turn shutoff valve as the first fitting inside the wall.
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I've replaced sillcocks because i wanted them to have vacuum breakers and be frostproof or because they were cheap but i've never had a failure that required replacement of the whole thing.
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If it's not vacuum breaker, frostproof and quarter turn I don't consider it worth repairing.
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So does this mean code and permits do not work and are a waste of time?
I often see guys on here insult code by saying "it's bare minimum" If it's not good enough, what's the point?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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I think the SharkBite instructions tell you they cannot be removed and re-installed?
I have used them over and over for demo projects in the shop, mainly low pressure hydronic stuff.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
My heart broke when Wolverine Brass disappeared. Their heavy duty frost free hose bibbs had no peer. I have two on my house 23 yrs of heavy use...not a drip. Mad Dog
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MOST building codes are bare minimum.
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The 150+ year old floor joists in my house which are far below code would disagree.
The building codes are the minimum allowed, not the minimum that will work.
Me, I think building codes are a great invention.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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there were NO codes when that was built.
I’ve seen many buildings with several fires that are still superior to todays Engineered BS!2 -
speed limits are great also. They'd be better if enforced!
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I believe you are correct on this 90% of the time.
But, picture 1/2" copper in the floor that moves over to a vertical wall (which you must transition to). Just slightly in front of the wall (toward you) is floor joist. Someone previously opened the top of the floor joist by about 1.5 inches so you can get to the far side of the floor joist (where you need the elbow).
I challenge you to get a torch through a 1.5" space in the top of the floor joist to the far side and sweat the horizontal of a 1/2" tee that you certainly can only get to one single point with the torch and pray that the solder goes 360 degrees all around the tee. THEN, if you are successful, you need to lower the 1/2" copper down the wall…………..engage the tee (which you really cannot see)…………and sweat it again. Of course, since you are below a floor and next to the floor joist, you'd risk catching fire to the building whereby only a bucket of water might extinguish (because it is behind the floor joist and you cannot get much water through a 1.5" space)………AND……….. disintegrate the first floor ceiling if you manage it.
Still think you can sweat that safely?
Sharkbite.
Done.
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