Pro opinion on near boiler piping on a new steam boiler.

tim smith

I think this debunks the idea that installer does not think he has to check combustion or pay someone to do so. Item 2 bottom left. This is page 42 right out of the Megasteam manual. Of course we all know this but this shows him. Unless he specifically excluded it from contract.

mattmia2

The oil burner has to be set up for your particular vent system and exact mix of oil, it cant' be properly set from the factory. You need a better oil tech if they think there is nothing to do with a new boiler.

STEAM DOCTOR

And there is absolutely no way to "preset" the draft. 

Mad Dog_2

Make sure he installs A Fields Control Damper..High Quality...Mad Dog

ChrisJ

tim smith said:

re: Relief discharge pipes, the reference in the asme does not specifically state what Seattle code does. There is another reference for over a 1000lbs an hr it must go outside. Our code does not differentiate on residential vs commercial as far as low pressure boilers. All safeties and relief discharge points are for both. Of course gets more stringent once CSD 1 kicks in for gas train. Just few tidbits from our area. Does make sense to discharge steam reliefs above head height, and with that goes the condensate drip at turned up elbow so water does not collect and corrode at relief valve exit point.

I can pretty much guarantee that would fail in New Jersey.  They want it near the floor and most inspectors want a copper pipe on it not steel / black iron.

Which makes more sense?  I have no idea.
I don't make policy.

EdTheHeaterMan

EVERY BOILER SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS. I think the manufacturer puts that combustion test thing in there for a reason. These boilers/burners are not Plug And Play... If every chimney, house, basement, boiler room, combustion air source, and ambient temperature was identical in every home that boilers are installed in were identical, then I agree with your oil company. The problem is... they are not! It's in the instructions for a reason!

realliveplumber

In NJ, it needs to be within 6" of the floor, and not threaded on the end.

And it doesn't matter what most inspectors want, it needs to be an approved material.

Mad Dog_2

NY too...Mad Dog  🐕 

ChrisJ

realliveplumber said:

In NJ, it needs to be within 6" of the floor, and not threaded on the end. And it doesn't matter what most inspectors want, it needs to be an approved material.

Ok
Good luck with that.

leonz

I have a DWYER MARK II manometer on my boiler and it has been a blessing for monitoring my coal stoker boiler draft.

realliveplumber

No luck needed. Just need to know the codes.

Mad Dog_2

I've always stuck up for oil as a fuel source and Oil-fired Burners.  As a Licensed Master Plumber, NG is the fuel most of us push & install.  The NG guys bash the "dirty" oil equipment and the Oil guys bash "dangerous " NG. I always give clients the truth about both and options for both.  What I have found, is the oil industry has lost tremendous ground and market fuel share because of neglected equipment, Half-A--d service cleanings, and taking customers for granted.  People finally get fed up and Convert to NG.  It's a shame because there are still plenty of honorable diligent companies, large and small, but one too many not putting in the care thats needed.  NG providers aren't so much better, but once the oul tank is gone and conversion is complete, there's no second chances or switching back...Mad Dog 🐕 

mattmia2

Atmospheric gas usually works more or less ok if not set up right, oil not so much.

Steamhead

pecmsg said:

So your oil company feels fine tuning that boiler is a waste of money. That’s partially true, they sell you that oil. 

Start looking for a different company. 

They probably think this is normal:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/184249/you-can-tell-how-long-ago-this-was-serviced

or this:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/188633/soot-vac-was-heavy-when-i-finished-this-one

But I have to fault the installing contractor on this as well. They should have the equipment and know-how to set up an oil or gas burner they are installing. If it's in the manual, they need to do it rather than call someone else.

And yes, I've seen some atmospheric gas units that were way out of whack too- the usual cause is one of the burners got knocked out of line, or the gas pressure is too high. A digital combustion test tells us to look for issues and correct them.

Mad Dog_2

NG is more forgiving but as Steamhead says, ALL fuel burning equipment needs set up and combustion analyzer on it. A Carbonized Atmospheric gas boiler can be even more dangerous than a sooted up Oil boiler because the oil burner pressure is forcing the flu product up the chimney and an older gas Atmospheric without a BVS
Blocked vent or spill switch, could spew CO right in to the boiler room with a blocked chimney.  I've heard many HOs have plumbers tell them gas boilers don't need ANY maintenance or service...especially when they are selling an oil to gas conversion.   Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Out of the millions of atmospheric gas boilers and furnaces that have been installed over the past what.... 70 years?  I wonder how many had a combustion analyzer used on them.


One was used on mine several times but I'm sure that's odd rather than the norm.

Mad Dog_2

Not many...Only when there's a problem, but its good practice.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Not many...Only when there's a problem, but its good practice.  Mad Dog 🐕 

I'll agree with that.
I do feel at an absolute minimum the manifold pressure should be checked.

It's easy and doesn't require expensive instruments.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

random12345 said:

@Ollie_Hopnoodle FYI the draft regulator has to be relocated and (probably) upsized to 7" first before the oil tech can tune the burner properly from the rear breech port. The installer may agree to relocate it for free because the manual forbids the current setup, but I doubt he'll be willing to buy and install a new 7" draft regulator in the proper location for nothing...It may or may not be cheaper/easier to have the oil tech do it instead since he has to come out to do the tuning anyway. Check the Field Controls manual. It's important that the draft regulator be completely level for proper operation. I went through the exact same problem you're having.

I talked with the New England regional field Controls rep and this is what they said about my current setup, and what I need in order for it to be legit.

Based on the pictures provided, as per our installation instructions for oil fired barometric dampers, this configuration is unacceptable. The barometric damper needs to be installed on the run and utilizing the collar provided with the damper, and not into the bullhead of the tee as shown.



Also based on the height of your chimney, which you estimate to be twenty five feet high, according to our engineering charts if the boiler breech is 6” any chimney over 16’ high should have 7” flue piping. It appears that they utilized 6” throughout the install.



Finally, we highly recommend a combustion efficiency test be performed and that the draft be set to the boiler manufacturer’s standards.



Please feel free to contact me should you require further assistance.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@Mad Dog_2 I added a Gorton #2 today. How's it look?

Mad Dog_2

Perfect 👌 mad dog 🐕 

random12345

@Ollie_Hopnoodle Thanks for sending that. I'm confused by this:

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

Also based on the height of your chimney, which you estimate to be twenty five feet high, according to our engineering charts if the boiler breech is 6” any chimney over 16’ high should have 7” flue piping. It appears that they utilized 6” throughout the install.

My understanding is that the draft regulator has to be 7", not the entire flue pipe. How would that work? The boiler breech itself is only 6", so are they suggesting that the flue pipe immediately after the breech be widened to 7" all the way to the chimney? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what he's telling you. I think I'm going to call them to ask for clarification on this point. I'm using a 7" draft regulator with 6" flue pipe, my chimney is nearly 35 ft tall, draft reading on my MST288 is -.03. The Field Controls reference guide does not say anything about the rest of the flue pipe, but it does say a 7" draft regulator can be used with 6" pipe.


Regarding steam venting, this booklet shows you how to calculate how much main venting you need: https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/Balancing-Steam-Systems-Using-a-Vent-Capacity-Chart-1.pdf

Ollie_Hopnoodle

random12345 said:

@Ollie_Hopnoodle Thanks for sending that. I'm confused by this:

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

Also based on the height of your chimney, which you estimate to be twenty five feet high, according to our engineering charts if the boiler breech is 6” any chimney over 16’ high should have 7” flue piping. It appears that they utilized 6” throughout the install.

My understanding is that the draft regulator has to be 7", not the entire flue pipe. How would that work? The boiler breech itself is only 6", so are they suggesting that the flue pipe immediately after the breech be widened to 7" all the way to the chimney? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what he's telling you. I think I'm going to call them to ask for clarification on this point. I'm using a 7" draft regulator with 6" flue pipe, my chimney is nearly 35 ft tall, draft reading on my MST288 is -.03. The Field Controls reference guide does not say anything about the rest of the flue pipe, but it does say a 7" draft regulator can be used with 6" pipe.


Regarding steam venting, this booklet shows you how to calculate how much main venting you need: https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/Balancing-Steam-Systems-Using-a-Vent-Capacity-Chart-1.pdf

Yes, he told me that there should be a 6" to 7" 24 gauge reducer installed from the breech, and the rest of the duct should be 7" to match the size of the barometeric damper. Here's a screenshot of the contractors reference guide (page 36) where they say that the damper should be the same size as the pipe. He didnt say whether it's ok for the chimney to have a 7" to 6" reducer, or if I have to widen the chimney to accept a 7" pipe.


When I got my tenant's boiler installed a few years, the installer sized up to 7" pipe and then widened the chimney to accept the 7" pipe.

Steamhead

A 7" barometric will work on a 6" smoke pipe. We do this all the time on taller chimneys.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@Steamhead Thanks, does that mean that I don't even need a 7" barometric damper? Can I keep the 6"? Or, if I need the 7" damper does the piping have to expand to 7" then reduce back to 6" after the damper? like this sketch below? I'm just confused as to why the Field Controls Contractor Reference Guide says you need the same size draft control as the piping.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

The Megasteam installation manual doesn't say which size the draft control needs to be. It only shows the proper/unacceptable locations of it. If the Megasteam has a 6" smokebox collar why does Field Controls want a 7" draft control?

Mad Dog_2

Its probably splitting Hairs.  I'd follow what Burnham wants..Mad Dog 🐕 

random12345

@Ollie_Hopnoodle I just spoke with Field Controls tech support. You do not need 7" flue piping throughout. You only need a 7" draft regulator and to increase the size of the hole on the tee where the draft regulator attaches. I don't know who you spoke with over there...The liner in the chimney definitely should not be 7". If you're sure the chimney height is 25 ft., then you can probably get away with a 6" liner, but 5" may be better. See NFPA 31, Appendix E: https://nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=31. The MST288 is rated at 0.75 GPH, and 86% AFUE. The purpose of this is to prevent flue gas condensation. There are some on here who think a liner isn't necessary and a bigger flue is better. I don't know what the right answer is, but in our case, I did notice more flaking of the terracotta in our chimney when we did the switch, so we decided to reline with a 5" liner because we have an exterior 35' ft chimney.

mattmia2

You can increase the vent size after the appliance. you can not reduce it so if you increase it to 7" you have to increase the breach to 7". It is common for the vent tables to call for an increase after the appliance in certain applications.

realliveplumber

You can reduce (use a smaller "vent" (chimney)) i.e. 6", and a larger vent connector i.e. 7" according to IFCG 504.2.2 if all of the conditions are met.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

I never talked with the Field Controls rep about the chimney liner, just the piping and vent from the smoke collar of the Megasteam to the chimney.

A chimney company came today, and recommended that I should have a 8" stainless steel liner inside the flu because The oil Megasteam is being shared with another gas boiler and gas water heater.

They never actually looked inside my chimney, but I climbed up to the top of the roof today and dropped my phone into the flu all the way down, which is about 37 feet. You can see the video of the inside of the flu below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fJF8FEcJJA&ab_channel=OllieHopnoodle

random12345

Awesome video. You're crazy for going up there though. Irresponsible too. No offense. If you fall, you're going to the hospital for sure. Not worth it. You have some visible cracks in the liner. How did you get the phone down there and to stay in that position? A liner might be worth getting. Didn't know you also had other appliances venting into it. Take a look at NFPA 54, Chapter 13 if you haven't already: https://link.nfpa.org/free-access/publications/54/2021

Mad Dog_2

The Clay looked excellent until it got down low.  Time for a SS insulated liner.  Just make sure its sized correctly.  Mad Dog 🐕 

mattmia2

Mad Dog_2 said:

The Clay looked excellent until it got down low.  Time for a SS insulated liner.  Just make sure its sized correctly.  Mad Dog 🐕 

the top needs a lot of work if you don't want it to all come apart too

Mad Dog_2

You need some Masonry work AND an insulated SS liner.  Mad Dog 🐕 

reggi

random12345 said:

Awesome video. You're crazy for going up there though. 

I don't know about that... I'd have to say he knows his way around heights...I didn't hear him complaining  🧗

Mad Dog_2

If you're afraid of heights and crawlspaces, 
this is the wrong trade for you. You just have to think it out and be careful...PPE...  Mad Dog 

Ollie_Hopnoodle

I worked as a carpenter for years. Framing, roofing, finish etc. Ive been walking on rafters since I was 15. So i don't really have any problem being up there. I do plan on adding a permanent roof anchor on the ridge of the roof so I can attach a safety harness when I need to do work up there.

Mad Dog_2

Smart....Even as a 2nd Year Apprentice hanging 48  stories above Rockefeller Center on the Time Life Building Set back ledge working a Chopping gun, I tied a rope to my waste and tied off to a Column...1987ish...I'm sure Body Harnesses existed, but No one really used them and the boss was not buying them.  I didn't hear the term P.P.E. (Personal Protective Equipment) until 2000s??   My father in law  bowhunted on Tree stands through the 1960s, 70s 80s, with no harness 20 feet up a tree.  1990s he started wearing a very 
Light chest harness...definitely not OSHA approved...78..Still.using that one!  Atleast hes doing something!  Mad Dog 🐕 

random12345

No criticism or judgement intended. It's a free country. Just don't want to see anyone get hurt. I was tempted to go up to the roof to look down my own chimney when I wanted to get it lined but I decided against it and let the chimney sweeps handle it. Three guys came by. I don't think any of them used PPE. They should have. A fall from that height would be a 35-50 ft drop potentially right onto concrete. Is that survivable? Maybe. Life-changing? I don't see how it wouldn't be. https://cdc.gov/niosh/construction/stopfallscampaign.html There are some very interesting infographics on this site: https://cdc.gov/niosh/construction/infographics.html I had no idea that construction workers have a 6 times higher death rate from opioid-related overdose, or that hearing loss is associated with fall risk.