Pro opinion on near boiler piping on a new steam boiler.

Mad Dog_2

No harm felt, brother.  I have a saying about my own risks I'm willing to take:
"YES...I AM CRAZY, BUT I'M NOT STUPID!!!"
Fortunately, I was taught from a very young age of 3 or 4 around the horses and Farm Machinery...PAY ATTENTION....Expect the unexpected.  That horse will kick you, the P.T.O. journal will take your hand off.  I was very fortunate to have great "Fambly Friends" Nunzio & Jean Valore.  They connected me with their neighbor, WW II  Vet (Go Navy!)  and Retired Plumbing Instructor at Plumbers Local #2 Manhattan & Bronx (The 5 boros Locals all merged and became Local 1 in the 1990s).  Our Instructors in the Apprenticeship school were rugged, crusty, tough old time plumbers (WW II & Korean War Vets) with 50 years in.  We had OSHA
'Indoctrination" from Day one.  They showed us horrific movies of trade mishaps and industrial  accidents.  They seared them in to our brains 🧠.   I usually volunteered for the worst assignments for the thrill and challenge.  That being said, I never went down in to a deep trench that wasn't shored up. I  Always tied myself off with atleast,  rope with serious knots (even before Full body harnesses were common. I refused to remove asbestos improperly and lost Co3 jobs because of it.   MY Goombah, The Great Vince Fiore NYC LMP (Semi-retired in NC) fell off a two story roof and broke both legs 🦵 as a Non union helper...lucky to be alive..I nearly cut off my index finger in 9th grade Auto Shop...I got alot of crap in my eyes (even with googles). My cousin Dave lost his eye hammering a roofing nail. Another guy, had band Iron snap back when he cut it...Goodbye 👋 eyeball...Construction and manual work in general is FRAUGHT with danger.  Besides being called Grammar Man, coworkers and Fambly call me OSHA man...Left handed "compliments." I feel I would be remiss if I didn't stop someone about to do OR doing something STUPIDO: "Bro..where's your goggles/face shield?  Where's your mask or respirator, where's your harness? Let me help you move that..I don't TRUST the spilt 4 x 4 that were about to Jack out an 800lb sewage Ejector with.I have a very high gutter on my Victorian Farmhouse that is 6" away from my 300 AMP weather head.  I went up on the extension ladder once to clean it out...hairy..Now I hire a guy.. Ill wire boilers and controls all day long, but if its more than popping in a breaker, I'm hiring an Electrician to go in the panel....I've definitely taken some crazy risks, but we all do in this business, but they are WELL PLANNED and calculated risks...thats the difference.  Mad Dog 🐕 

leonz

My former fool employer Cargill had a supervisor with the attitude; if your dumb enough to do it I'm dumb enough to let ya.

Another one denied I told him I needed to have my back x-rayed as I am in a great deal of pain in front of witnesses not long after another supervisor filled out a personal injury report describing what happened, saying I am doing this so you are protected since you were hurt on the job. 46 years ago his boss told me one day if you come to our church you be much better off around here. His boss said well, if you had gone to the doctor and simply said I was hurt at home lifting something and I need a back x-ray you would not be in the trouble you are in now.

Oh, and they still have a contract with the local hospital to take care of employees that are hurt on the job and you never see any paperwork or letters from workmans compensation.

Oh, and you have to submit to a blood draw for drug testing whether you are awake or unconcious due to an injury.

You are physically escorted to the hospital ER riding in a company vehicle and the manager who escorts you notifies the ER manager who they are and the employee needs to be seen and............after that you are denied a pay raise for 5 years.

One more reason to never trust a non locking folding knife given to you as a tool for your work.

I don't miss that place or the well driller that nearly killed me one bit.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Thank you everyone for the advice so far! The installer agreed to come back and add the tee and drain on the wet return line and to correct the flu and damper positioning. It’s been difficult to understand what’s acceptable as far as the damper size since Burnham doesn’t  say which size, but Field Controls says I need a 7” barometric damper since my chimney is 35’ high. 

Does this photo look right? I just want to make sure this is correct before they come and move the damper. 

Thanks! 

Mad Dog_2

Looks good...I wouldn't worry too much.  As an installing contractor we often end up as the final arbiter anyway when you can't straight answers or non commital answers from The MANUFACTURER'S and engineers.  Have a guy check draft and run a combustion test.  You'll probably be fine.  Make sure they a short zip screw for each flue pipe joint..3 to 4 per. Glad the guy is making corrections...he won't make those mistakes again ..all good  Mad Dog 🐕 

clammy

I know I’m late to the discussion but the location the tee is in your picture is wrong . Personally I usually when doing oil install the barometric diaper close to the chimney . With a 35 ft chimney you need one other wise you would Ben liable to have excess draft and a higher stack temp ,good if your selling oil not good if you’re on the other end paying. Quick note usually on the inlet ( return into boiler ) a tee is used so on the future that return on the boiler can be flushed through to the drain on the boiler so that mud can be flushed out of the boiler ,not every one does this but it’s quite important in producing steam ,who wants steam that produced through boiling muddy rusty boiler water . I wouldn’t make sure that a combustion test is performed and that’s the draft is checked and damper adjusted properly ,a fuel oil dealer who says it s unnecessary is in essence ripping you off and also as other have stated not giving you a base line on the burner performance ,very sad to say the least . Personally as I always do I would have installed a spin on oil filter and a tiger loop w flexible oil lines connected to the pump body w a couple of 1/4 nipples and 90 it make sure life in the future much easier not the strainer cover to ensure zero issue s on suppling oil to the burner . I can’t believe guys don’t use them I think s it’s a bit of old school ww2 generation of re use as much as possible and only install after issue and lots of lock outs .Peace and good luck clammy

Mad Dog_2

And...The Clamster weighs in........My Elder statesman!  Mad Dog  🐕 

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Update:

I got the tee and 3/4 drain installed, and I got the duct work repaired. The bull tee was replaced with a 90 and a new 7" draft regulator was installed closer to the chimney on the horizontal pipe as @clammy recommended. The tech wasn't able to get the draft regulator to open and close correctly and they said they can return to install a different regulator. Not sure why they couldn't get it to draft right, the installer just told me he doesn't like this regulator, but it was the only one available that day, and that the other Field Control draft regulator is much better. Thoughts? Once again thanks for all of your pro opinions.

clammy

The tee w the plug should be where the elbow is so one could stick a wand into the boiler and flush each section a much quicker and more efficient way to clean a boiler and cuts down on skimming time . After all the oil and crap have been removed that should for all accounts be it for skimming ,unless piping work has introduced oils or make up water issues. The boiler set up for wanding is a boiler can have its water side flushed and cleaned ,removing all the crude which always end up in the boiler building up in each sections it will only be removed by wanding the boiler out all the flushing will not get that mud out . Boilers which have mud built up make poor steam ,I ve wanded boilers and had customers be amazed at the time difference a clean boiler makes . This is not nonsense it’s the truth . It only goes to show how many professional are clueless or really don’t care $ . As time goes by the cost of re piping and correcting becomes a liability and no one wants to deal with even the most experienced knuckle dragging spinners . This is the real reason why guys who do this and charge what they charge and get there price because there no second visits it called experience from decades of repeating the same techniques that make everything possible it does not happen when guys are trying to sell the cheapest job in most cases none of the good stuff that should happen happen I know this to be a truth because I have been yaking about this w guys I’ve work for or assisted in installing steamers for decades and everytime they have a mudded up steamer they **** and scream because of all the time it took to flush and drain and flush and drain and still have a dirty boiler .
I find it very humorous that guys have to return more then once just to get simple piping and common flue piping correct . I can’t image how you make a profit when your guys are the king of the call backs ,there really is no accuse for lack of knowledge and experience except books and punching a clock and putting in a decade or two . Lol
Peace and good luck clammy

random12345

I would like to hear more from others about why they think putting the draft regulator closer to the chimney is better. Both the Megasteam, Field Controls RC manual, and FC reference guide specify putting it as close to the boiler as possible. The type M manual you now have does not specify one way or the other.
Burnham manual:

Field Controls RC:

Field Controls M:

FC contractor guide:

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Hi all, I just wanted to continue the conversation on this thread from earlier this summer. The installers came back twice in the past couple of weeks to "skim the boiler". The first time, they opened the skim port and trickled out a bunch of black goop for about twenty minutes, then they drained the boiler from the drain at the Hartford loop, refilled the boiler, and brought it almost to a boil then drained the boiler -two times. Then they cleaned the sight glass and left. The total time working on the boiler was about an hour.

About a week later the sight glass was extremely black above the water line so I had them come back.The second tech skimmed the boiler from the port again and removed a ton of black residue "skimming" the boiler for about 15 minutes. But then he filled the boiler, brought it almost to a boil, skimmed it, and then drained the boiler from the 3/4 drain on the Hartford loop. Dumping the nasty water into my basement sink. He repeated this process this about 6 times.

Its been three or four days later and the sight glass is still black and the water coming out of the drain is stil grey/black, and smells like machine oil.

Here's a picture of the sight glass and the stinky water thats coming out of the drain. Is this normal? Should I have them come back again, or should Ijust skim it myself? They recommended that I should't skim the boiler myself.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

I drained a bit into a mason jar and put a strong magnet to the bottom of it. All of the black cloudy water was immediately drawn to the magnet, so its prob iron, no? Is it normal for there to be so much in the boiler after two skims?

neilc

you're not getting a true and good skim job in less than an hour,
someone needs to sit there for a full hour, more likely 2, and let the skim port do it's job,
that nipple looks short and clumbsy, (like my writing), hard to get a bucket under there,
did you watch them skim?

leonz

Did they pour any washing soda in the boiler to break up the oil slick?? It does not sound like they did.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

They did replace the skim port with a longer one pictured below. The water in the sight glass is still black and dirty and the water is bouncing around like crazy in the sight glass. Really not sure what to do at this point. I probably do need to get it cleaned out. Draining it and refiling doesn't seem to be solving the issue.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

here's a video of the sight glass while the boiler is running. IDK, Seems wrong to me. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WVOct3RwpKQ

leonz

An oil driller would be happy to see that mess in a drill core but not in a steam boiler.
You need washing soda to break up the oil to skim it off.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Ollie_Hopnoodle

Your not supposed to mount a draft regulator on a tee. That is in the MFG instructions. The 7" collar that comes with the 7" draft control has enough flexibility built in to fit a 6" smoke pipe

mattmia2

you need to skim more, more slowly for a longer period and several times. with the boiler surging it is going to throw that oil up in to the system so even after you get it out of the boiler more is going to get washed out of the system and back to the boiler by the steam and condensate as the boiler runs over the next few days.. it is normal to have to do it a couple times a few days to weeks apart and it will take more in this case because it has been surging.

neilc

draining and refilling will not get that oil out,
it has to be skimmed, at your skim port, hours at your skim port,

take the cap off, set a bucket under it,
start a slow fill feed into the boiler till you get a steady small stream from the skim port,
do not go higher than 1/2 of that nipple, 1/4 would be good,
fill buckets, and buckets, and , , ,

once bucket waters get clearer, oil free,
stop your feed, and cap the skim,

now close the bottom valve at the sightglass,
open the bottom drain under the bottom sightglass valve,
restart the slow feed so water flows out the top sightglass valve, thru the glass, and out that bottom sightglass drain,
flush that glass,

don't forget to reopen the bottom sightglass valve when done,

expect to SKIM more than a couple times,

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@neilc
now close the bottom valve at the sightglass,
open the bottom drain under the bottom sightglass valve,

I'm pretty sure that they installed this sight glass upside down because the drain is at the top, no?

Ollie_Hopnoodle

I should probably just re-install the sight glass like Silent Steam Team does in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqoANV0Y9sI&ab_channel=SilentSteamTeam

Ollie_Hopnoodle

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@Ollie_Hopnoodle

Your not supposed to mount a draft regulator on a tee. That is in the MFG instructions. The 7" collar that comes with the 7" draft control has enough flexibility built in to fit a 6" smoke pipe

They came back and fixed that this summer.

neilc

your installer owes you a do over on those sightglass fittings,
and a couple hours of skimming also

mattmia2

I wouldn't try to take apart the sight glass without a spare tube on hand during the heating season. I would just put a cup under it, open the plug at the top, and fill the boiler until the oil spilled out the top then drain it back down to the normal level.

ethicalpaul

I would take apart the gauge glass (carefully) without a spare tube on hand during the heating season. This one is very short and not as fragile as the longer ones, and if it does break, the valves can be closed to keep the boiler running while a new glass is acquired.

PS: that water is horrible. If it were mine, I'd do the TSP treatment, let it sit for a couple hours, then skim, then drain it down to correct level, then wait a few days to see how things behaved

PPS: is this installer licensed?

PPPS: regarding your iron filings/rust, skimming won't necessarily remove that if it's dense enough to sink to the bottom which it normally would be. That would be cleared by flushing/draining.

(retroactive reply to Chris below: I'm just saying his glass is short, so it's going to be stronger, generally speaking)

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

I would take apart the gauge glass (carefully) without a spare tube on hand during the heating season. This one is very short and not as fragile as the longer ones, and if it does break, the valves can be closed to keep the boiler running while a new glass is acquired.

PS: that water is horrible. If it were mine, I'd do the TSP treatment, let it sit for a couple hours, then skim, then drain it down to correct level, then wait a few days to see how things behaved

PPS: is this installer licensed?

PPPS: regarding your iron filings/rust, skimming won't necessarily remove that if it's dense enough to sink to the bottom which it normally would be. That would be cleared by flushing/draining.

Depends.
The one that came with my boiler was actually cut too long. The only way I could get it in was by installing it with one fitting not fully tight and then slowly tighten it into the boiler allowing the glass to go into it.

That could've been an odd fluke but I'm sure if it happened once to me it probably happened other times.

clammy

Removing a complete gauge glass assembly is no big deal I remove them all the time on every boiler that’s getting a yearly service w removal of the low water cut off probe . Loosen both nuts slide up and then pull bottom that easy put some grease on the glass when re assembling and it won’t bind .
Peace and good luck clammy

ethicalpaul

In the poster's case he won't have to slide up the glass to remove it because it's upside down

The most careful part is re-tightening the glass-clamping nuts. don't over-tighten