Pro opinion on near boiler piping on a new steam boiler.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

I recently got a new Megasteam 288 installed for my 239 EDR unit, (replacing a blown, oversized Burnham v8 from 2004, 396 edr, with tankless coil.). I also got a new heat pump water heater installed, which has been running great with consistent hot water. Overall, I feel pretty happy with the installation but I just wanted to get a pro installer’s opinion on the near boiler piping.

It was installed last week, the installer said that they will return to skim the boiler in September when the heating season starts.

I ran the heat the other night and the boiler ran continuously for about 41 minutes before all of the radiators were hot to the touch all the way through. The boiler never short cycled or turned off throughout the whole heating cycle until the thermostat met the temperature. Is this typical? All of the radiators were pretty quiet, no banging.

The subtractive diff is set to the lowest setting on the new Pressuretrol but it seems pretty high on the main at 5 psi. Should I adjust this setting down? Is my Pressuretrol set too high? My main and my diff were set to the lowest setting on my old Pressuretrol L404A-1345. I made sure to keep that one since I have read on this website that some people prefer these mercury based Pressuretrols over the new ones.
















Thanks,

Ollie

Mad Dog_2

I don't know if my phone is not loading the pics fully but I'm getting 1/2 pics Ollie...Pressure too high.  Did they add or change main vents?  45 mins is a long time to get everything hot...even from an ice cold start.  More pics please.   Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Pretty damned good. Can I assume he measured up your radiator EDR first?   I would just have him make one of those 90s where the return drop down in to the Hartford Loop a TEE W A boiler drain.  That needs to be flushable/drainable. I prefer Cast Iron Steam fittings but malleable works.  A litte sloppy with the Dope but an easy 5 minute fix with a rag.  I'll give him B +...if he adds in Tee w Drain A -.   I see a Gorton # 2 up top.  You may need another and new rad vents to cut burner time to full steam distribution.  Mad Dog  🐕 

ethicalpaul

I ran the heat the other night and the boiler ran continuously for about 41 minutes before all of the radiators were hot to the touch all the way through. The boiler never short cycled or turned off throughout the whole heating cycle until the thermostat met the temperature. Is this typical?

No, what's typical is that the boiler would be oversized with inadequate main venting causing short-cycling and high pressure. Did you want that?

But yours seems like a good install. Yes the pressuretrol is set too high but with a correctly sized boiler which yours may be, it won't matter much because the pressure will rarely if ever build beyond 1/4 psi anyway. But yes it should be lower. Ask him about it in the fall when he comes to skim.

The main vent looks like a Gorton #1 to me and it may be fine or a #2 or another #1 might be warranted but you can test that during the heating season easier.

Based on the number of 2" couplers I would say he doesn't have a 2" threader (but instead relied on 2" nipples and couplers) but that's OK, I have a 2" manual threader myself but I didn't use it in my install because I'm not a masochist.

Congrats you found a decent installer who isn't afraid to look at the pretty pictures in the installation manual.

EdTheHeaterMan

I like the look of everything. Only one change I might have done. You need to be able to service the bottom of the wet return. Add a Tee and drain valve.

Mad Dog_2

While he's at it drop that leg to the floor, then a tee and drain. That plug at the bottom should be a bushing with a 3/4" Boiler drain instead of where it is... More betterer..When I zoom in on my phone it gets blurry and looks like a #2 .  When I zoom out it is a #1.  In any case, a #1 is good,, but even the smallest of systems will benefit from a #2's superior venting.  I'd put atleast one without consulting charts.  That's great it doesn't short cycle, but I bet you could get that whole system 100% Hot 🔥 by improving your venting down to 25-30 minutes versus 40 some odd minutes.  Mad Dog 🐕 

random12345

I believe the draft regulator location is wrong. See page 31 of manual. Also see the linked installation manual for the draft regulator. Did he perform combustion analysis at the breech tapping at the back of the boiler? See picture. If he didn't do it there, the burner might not have been tuned correctly. Most techs are used to drilling a small hole in the vent pipe and sticking the probe in there. The Megasteam is a 3-pass and has different instructions. Draft needs to be measured at that tapping only and be at least 0" w.c. and no more than -.03" w.c. See pages 32 and 60 of Megasteam manual. How tall is your chimney? If it's 16 ft or higher, you probably need to install the 7" draft control to get the draft right. If it's 15 ft or less, you might be ok with what you have as long as draft regulator changes to one of the approved locations. See Field Controls contractor reference guide page 34.


https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/catsy.782/MegaSteam+IO+Manual.pdf
https://fieldcontrols.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/4338_ContractorReferenceGuide_2018.pdf
https://fieldcontrols.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/01575700_TypeRC_Rev_B_04-15.pdf

random12345

Also, if your chimney has no liner, you might need to get one since the higher efficiency/lower stack temperatures may cause the flue gases to condense to a greater extent than your previous boiler. Keep an eye on that.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

I'm happy to hear that overall it looks good.

@Mad Dog_2 Thanks, yea, we did go over my EDR first, and I confirmed my EDR with the knowledgable community here, prior to installation. They didn't change any of the main vents. I installed that Gorton#1 main vent at the end of the dry return this past Fall. Do you think I should add a Gorton #2 to it to help with the heating time? Also my radiator vents are all pretty old, not sure how old but the are Ventrite #1's. Maybe I should just replace them all. As far as the Pressuretrol, is it as easy as taking of the cover and pulling down the adjuster to the lowest setting?

@ethicalpaul Paul, thanks for recommending the heat pump water heater in an earlier discussion. They installed a Rheem XE50T10H45U0. When I researched it here it looks like you have the same exact one? Ive been running it in heat pump mode and it has used very little energy so far, and consistent DHW for the first time in years.

The reason I was concerned about the long run time without shutting off is because my old, oversized, down-fired cracked boiler took about the same time to heat up. But it would short cycle three or four times throughout the process, which ultimately means that it spent about four minutes out of that time not using fuel, no?

@EdTheHeaterMan Thanks for sending that image over. It seems like this valve should be standard here, yes? My other concern was that the boiler make up water feed was going into a tee above the Hartford loop on the wet return, but the manual shows that it should be installed at the floor. Is that ok? I noticed that the line was getting really hot when the boiler was heating up.

@random12345 thanks for spotting the draft regulator location problem, I will address that with the installer. My chimney is def taller than 16 feet. They didn't do a combustion analysis. When I asked them for a printout of the analysis after the installation was complete, they said they don't do it, and that I would have to get an oil service technician to do it. I currently have a Defender CO monitor in the basement and it hasn't shown anything over 10ppm. They said I should have a problem with the unlined chimney, but I will keep an eye on it, and if it starts to get condensate I will for sure add a liner.

Thanks again, everyone.

PS---I noticed that only the front supply riser got really hot when I was calling for heat, then the other started to get hot, minutes after. I guess I thought that they would both be shooting up hot steam and water at the same time.

Mad Dog_2

Yes.  Replace with a Gorton #2.  After that Go around and replace all radiator vents with Gortons or Hoffmans.  If you want max heat out of a rad, install a Gorton D..Min output #6 (smallest?)...et cetera. And so on.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

I think the return that goes down and then comes back up is interesting. Is that a dirt trap?

ethicalpaul

I don't agree with installing a Gorton D "if you want the max heat out of a rad". That is equivalent to a #1 main vent and much too large for any radiator IMO. I would start with #4 (the minimum) up to #6 for radiators far from the boiler (this is Gorton or Maid o' Mist sizing). But to each his own!

Paul, thanks for recommending the heat pump water heater in an earlier discussion. They installed a Rheem XE50T10H45U0. When I researched it here it looks like you have the same exact one? Ive been running it in heat pump mode and it has used very little energy so far, and consistent DHW for the first time in years.

The reason I was concerned about the long run time without shutting off is because my old, oversized, down-fired cracked boiler took about the same time to heat up. But it would short cycle three or four times throughout the process, which ultimately means that it spent about four minutes out of that time not using fuel, no?

Yes I think that is my water heater. I'm glad you are having nice hot water without a steam boiler heating your basement all year!

The run-time timing can be complicated. Like for example, some of that 40 minutes was heating the boiler itself and the water from cold (I assume). And probably the main and all supply pipes were stone cold. It's definitely not taking 40 minutes to vent your main, don't worry about that. IMO you don't want the radiators to fill up too fast--it makes balancing impossibly difficult. And almost no calls for heat will require your radiators to completely fill with steam.

As long as pressure isn't building, you want it to keep running until the thermostat is satisfied. It doesn't help anything to have periodic shut downs when trying to satisfy the thermostat.

The counter to that is yes, if pressure is building up, I consider it wasteful to keep running the burners, building useless pressure. If that doesn't make sense, let me know where you got confused and I can elaborate.

tim smith

Relief valve should be piped up near ceiling and not down to floor. With a drip tee at bottom where it turns up vertically. Overall not bad job. Couplings are not the end of the world but we usually cut and thread to length rather than the easy way but will work fine. Looks like on the most part he followed directions. Agree on the barometric move. Combustion analysis absolutely and did they skim it? Lower pressure! Much better than many we have seen here on this site.

ChrisJ

tim smith said:

Relief valve should be piped up near ceiling and not down to floor. With a drip tee at bottom where it turns up vertically. Overall not bad job. Couplings are not the end of the world but we usually cut and thread to length rather than the easy way but will work fine. Looks like on the most part he followed directions. Agree on the barometric move. Combustion analysis absolutely and did they skim it? Lower pressure! Much better than many we have seen here on this site.

Relief valve piped near ceiling?

I've never heard of that before?

JohnNY

tim smith said:

Relief valve should be piped up near ceiling and not down to floor. With a drip tee at bottom where it turns up vertically.

Please clarify.

mattmia2

If it wasn't skimmed at all or still has significant oil in it, it could be surging and throwing water in to the mains. That will kill your steam and make it a lot slower to get steam to the emitters. Was the water level stable when you were testing?

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@mattmia2 here’s the water in the site glass while the boiler was heated up. https://imgur.com/a/I4TZvR0

mattmia2

That's not too bad but you can see the oil on top of the water in the sight glass. If you are still trying to heat with it now you might want to get them to do the first skimming now.

MaxMercy

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

The reason I was concerned about the long run time without shutting off is because my old, oversized, down-fired cracked boiler took about the same time to heat up. But it would short cycle three or four times throughout the process, which ultimately means that it spent about four minutes out of that time not using fuel, no?

Correct, but your oversized boiler almost certainly used a much larger nozzle no matter how far they likely downsized it.

41 minutes X 0.85 gph would be .58 gallons used and 36 minutes at 1.25gph would be .76 gallons used if your old boiler run 5 minutes less due to cycling, so if my guess at your nozzle sizes are correct, you would be burning less oil with your new boiler even though it's running 5 minutes longer.

Mad Dog_2

Timmie....whatchoo mean about relief valve piping?  Mad Dog 🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

@random12345 thanks for spotting the draft regulator location problem, I will address that with the installer. My chimney is def taller than 16 feet. They didn't do a combustion analysis. When I asked them for a printout of the analysis after the installation was complete, they said they don't do it, and that I would have to get an oil service technician to do it. I currently have a Defender CO monitor in the basement and it hasn't shown anything over 10ppm. They said I should have a problem with the unlined chimney, but I will keep an eye on it, and if it starts to get condensate I will for sure add a liner.

WOAH !!!

it is in the installation manual!

Don't pay the balance due

I hope that i'm not too late here. I hope you still owe something on the job! There is a section of just about every installation manual that has a place to write down the Combustion test results. The job is not complete unless the Combustion test is completed. The instructions for the proper setup are on page 42, section G, Item 2. i have placed a Red box around it in the attached file.

Ask them again about the Combustion test again... if they repeat the part about "You have to get n oil burner guy to do that". You can just reply... No, I thing YOU need to get an oil burner guy to finish the job properly. Or I will get one and you can pay for it. I'll just deduct it from the balance I owe you!



I can't believe that there are installing companies that think this is an acceptable practice! If I needed an electrician to install a central AC system. I paid for the electrician. If I needed a plumber to install the Backflow preventer on a boiler job, I paid the plumber. It is only fair, if the installer needs an oil burner man to set up the burner, that they should pay the oil burner guy.


Am I Wrong?

reggi

EdTheHeaterMan said:

@random12345 thanks for spotting the draft regulator location problem, I will address that with the installer. My chimney is def taller than 16 feet. They didn't do a combustion analysis. When I asked them for a printout of the analysis after the installation was complete, they said they don't do it, and that I would have to get an oil service technician to do it. I currently have a Defender CO monitor in the basement and it hasn't shown anything over 10ppm. They said I should have a problem with the unlined chimney, but I will keep an eye on it, and if it starts to get condensate I will for sure add a liner.

You missed this 😕 ....  Decent looking job but good points guys... I see Red Flags popping up.. wonder what else is missing??

mattmia2

It looks like overall a good job but they should have got an oil tech to help them set up the burner and get the vent right. I don't fault them for not knowing, i do fault them for not getting help.

They should have quoted replacing the venting as part of the job too, new vents are cheap insurance against have some getting stuck open and ruining the new boiler.

Mad Dog_2

I was the first Plumbing and Heating contractor in my area to use and own a Combustion analyzer..10 years ahead of anyone. One or two guys eventually got certified and own one, but in 2023, its still rather rare.  Compared to what I often see and some horror shows that get posted here, its still a much better install.  Only a Real top notch Installer is going to own and do a Combustion analysis.  If you could get him to correct the stuff we pointed out, I think you'll be more or less whole.  If you beat the guy over the head too hard, he's not going to Correct ANYTHING and will walk .....  Mad Dog 🐕 

ethicalpaul

Am I Wrong?

I don't think you're wrong, Ed, you are right, they should obviously do a combustion analysis, but he can always find another contractor to do that part. I'm rather overjoyed it seems to be sized correctly and it's piped just fine.

Mad Dog_2

Very few installers ..even in 2023 own an analyzer.  I came up in the trade with excellent old school guys that never used a Digital Analyser but recognized problems by sight and experience.  But, today it should be REQUIRED to own, be trained on it, and part of every install...That's on the wish list...Mad Dog 🐕 

tim smith

Johnny, Mad dog etc, here is our excerpt from the Seattle boiler code, Inspector thinks it's from asme but is going to verify.
3. Safety valve discharge. Safety valve discharge from boilers and pressure vessels containing
steam shall be directed upward to a minimum of 6 feet above the boiler room floor or
horizontally to an inaccessible area of the boiler room. If the discharge from safety valves would
result in a hazardous discharge of steam inside the boiler room, or if the discharge of safety valves
on boilers exceeds the capacity of 1,000 pounds of steam per hour, the steam discharge shall be
extended outside the boiler room to a safe location. No valve shall be placed on the discharge
pipe between the safety relief valve and the atmosphere.

STEAM DOCTOR

Add Manometer to the list. Very common for gas pressures to be out of whack. Obviously if they are far enough out of wack, will show up on combustion test.

tim smith

Mad Dog_2 said:

Timmie....whatchoo mean about relief valve piping?  Mad Dog 🐕 

From our Seattle boiler code which inspector is pretty sure from ASME.
3. Safety valve discharge. Safety valve discharge from boilers and pressure vessels containing
steam shall be directed upward to a minimum of 6 feet above the boiler room floor or
horizontally to an inaccessible area of the boiler room. If the discharge from safety valves would
result in a hazardous discharge of steam inside the boiler room, or if the discharge of safety valves
on boilers exceeds the capacity of 1,000 pounds of steam per hour, the steam discharge shall be
extended outside the boiler room to a safe location. No valve shall be placed on the discharge
pipe between the safety relief valve and the atmosphere.

ethicalpaul

That must be commercial code, no? Houses don't have boiler rooms (nor 1,000 pounds of steam per hour) and I've never seen a house that had an upward-directed discharge like that.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Thanks ya'll, I'll let you know what happens.

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

That must be commercial code, no? Houses don't have boiler rooms (nor 1,000 pounds of steam per hour) and I've never seen a house that had an upward-directed discharge like that.

When I read that the first thing that came to mind.....


https://youtu.be/oaVIWpUMcd4

Ollie_Hopnoodle

I left an email with the installer to come back to fix the draft regulator and install the tee and drain on the wet return. We’ll see.

I also called my oil company and had their oil service technician call me back about the combustion analysis test.

He told me that it’s a waste of my money and his time to come out and give me a combustion analysis on a brand new boiler. He said he would, but he would feel bad about taking my money. He did recommend that I have the installer fix the draft regulator and install it into a proper location. Then, look at the back of the draft regulator to see if it’s black from soot. If there isn’t any soot, then I shouldn’t worry about it. Otherwise he can come out and take a look.

Pretty old school, huh?

STEAM DOCTOR

👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎

Mad Dog_2

I would get it done anyway.  You need a baseline and who knows if its set up right?  Only way to know for certain.  Mad Dog 🐕 

pecmsg

Ollie_Hopnoodle said:

I left an email with the installer to come back to fix the draft regulator and install the tee and drain on the wet return. We’ll see. I also called my oil company and had their oil service technician call me back about the combustion analysis test. He told me that it’s a waste of my money and his time to come out and give me a combustion analysis on a brand new boiler. He said he would, but he would feel bad about taking my money. He did recommend that I have the installer fix the draft regulator and install it into a proper location. Then, look at the back of the draft regulator to see if it’s black from soot. If there isn’t any soot, then I shouldn’t worry about it. Otherwise he can come out and take a look. Pretty old school, huh?

So your oil company feels fine tuning that boiler is a waste of money. That’s partially true, they sell you that oil. 

Start looking for a different company. 

JohnNY

tim smith said:

Johnny, Mad dog etc, here is our excerpt from the Seattle boiler code, Inspector thinks it's from asme but is going to verify.
3. Safety valve discharge. Safety valve discharge from boilers and pressure vessels containing
steam shall be directed upward to a minimum of 6 feet above the boiler room floor or
horizontally to an inaccessible area of the boiler room. If the discharge from safety valves would
result in a hazardous discharge of steam inside the boiler room, or if the discharge of safety valves
on boilers exceeds the capacity of 1,000 pounds of steam per hour, the steam discharge shall be
extended outside the boiler room to a safe location. No valve shall be placed on the discharge
pipe between the safety relief valve and the atmosphere.

This is for boiler relief valves designed to pass more than 1,000,000 BTUs per hour. Which many do even at ¾" and 30 PSI. It's an odd code that I've never heard of and I'm guessing it's for a specific application. Like multi-family buildings, hospitals, etc. I really don't know though. Interesting post.

MaxMercy

If it's not smoking now, I'd wait for the cold weather to hit before tuning the combustion.

Mad Dog_2

At the very least do a Smoke test.  Mad Dog 🐕 

tim smith

re: Relief discharge pipes, the reference in the asme does not specifically state what Seattle code does. There is another reference for over a 1000lbs an hr it must go outside. Our code does not differentiate on residential vs commercial as far as low pressure boilers. All safeties and relief discharge points are for both. Of course gets more stringent once CSD 1 kicks in for gas train. Just few tidbits from our area.
Does make sense to discharge steam reliefs above head height, and with that goes the condensate drip at turned up elbow so water does not collect and corrode at relief valve exit point.

random12345

@Ollie_Hopnoodle FYI the draft regulator has to be relocated and (probably) upsized to 7" first before the oil tech can tune the burner properly from the rear breech port. The installer may agree to relocate it for free because the manual forbids the current setup, but I doubt he'll be willing to buy and install a new 7" draft regulator in the proper location for nothing...It may or may not be cheaper/easier to have the oil tech do it instead since he has to come out to do the tuning anyway. Check the Field Controls manual. It's important that the draft regulator be completely level for proper operation. I went through the exact same problem you're having.