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Circulator pump smoking

1928steam
1928steam Member Posts: 40
I may have used detergent oil to oil the motor on the Taco Circulator pump.  The pump had stopped spinning so I oiled the motor.  In any event it starts, continues spinning for about 10 minutes, starts to buzz, then stops spinning and then starts to smoke.  Any ideas?

Comments

  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 836
    Bad bearing. Time to replace 
    mattmia2MikeAmann
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,764
    Any ideas? Is that a trick question?
    At the bare minimum, replace the motor. Make sure the bearing assembly and impeller move freely. Or IMO, the better option is to replace it with a wet rotor circulator.
    unclejohn
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    The bearing is already trashed when it is danged to the point it won't turn. oil prevents that wear, it doesn't fix it after it has happened.
    MikeAmann
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 655
    And now the motor windings are smoked so its time to upgrade.
    MikeAmannSuperTech
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40
    It works fine for about ten minutes, turns freely.  The transfer tube gets hot, but the pipes don’t.  Could it be something other than the motor or the pump itself, which seems fine?
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40
    The issue is finding anyone around here that understands the system.  Princeton, NJ.  
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    Are you sure it is stopping because the bearings are seizing vs it is overloaded trying to turn the bad bearings and the overload trips out on the motor?
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    Regardless it is time to send it to the museum. A wet rotor circulator will cost less than any part of that 3 piece circulator and will use significantly less power.
    MikeAmann
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 655
    Is it an oil burner with a tankless coil?

    Once you smoke the motor you pretty much done as far as the motor is concerned.

    What is a transfer tube? never heard of that on a boiler.
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40
    Added hot water zone off steam heat.  Big transfer tube that is heated up (looks like a bazooka) and then circulated through baseboards.  Getting the steam heat side serviced is okay, but nobody seems to understand the added zone, so it hasn’t received the attention it should.  
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    That is probably a shell and tube heat exchanger. Is the circulator in the hot water loop water or the boiler water? Pictures would be good.
    PC7060
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 655
    You mean a heat exchanger? Pics would help. Not for the motor as that is junk but what you system looks like. Sounds like nothing fancy.
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40
    edited November 22
    Lots of pictures under the discussion “Taco no 105 - 1 circulator”
    —- I don’t think it’s particularly fancy, just hard to find anyone local who understands it.  It is a shell and tube heat exchanger.  Please forgive my ignorance — I knew nothing about steam heat before I bought this house.  
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 17,531
    How old is it? Old enough to smoke🤓

    How much oil did you put in the motor? Several drops is all, or else you saturate the inside of the motor
    Ghe bearing assembly has a cotton wick and can take more oil 

    It may have gone from no oil to excessive oil?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    kcoppEdTheHeaterMan
  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 655
    Don't see any pic's but no big deal. Just want to make sure i understand what you have so not to give you any bad advice. it's not ignorance. Its just not your field. That's why your on here.

    is it steam to water or water to water hx. Is the circulator for the heating loop?
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40
    edited November 22
    No oil to excessive, yes.
    steam to water, circulator I believe is for heating loop … one side of house is all steam … other is baseboards with shell and tube.  It doesn’t make sense to me that the pump spins freely and then stops, while the copper tubes don’t get warm, so water isn’t flowing.  If I turned it on now, the circulator would be spinning away without buzzing but would then buzz slow stop and smoke.  I can send pics but there are tons of them if you search the wall for “Taco no 105 - 1 circulator"
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 19,954
    Almost certainly a bad bearing -- and those bearings, once they go, are gone. No fix to them.

    Replace the whole thing with a nice new more efficient pump.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 17,531
    Does it have a spring coupler? Sometimes those jam when a spring breaks
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,983
    edited November 22
    Smoking circulator? Make it stop. That’s bad for its health.

    Seriously though, you’re gonna have to replace the whole thing  and a wet rotor circulator won’t last in that application. You should replace it with a B&G series 100 BRONZE circulator. It’s the only one the will hold up to that application.

    Not gonna be cheap.

    Try contacting @EzzyT
    (347) 436-6593
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40
    Taco 007 F was recommended.  Or Taco Ss 007 … when you say the whole thing, I’m assuming just the circulator pump, correct?
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    so here is their other thread:
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/185531/taco-no-105-1-circulator#latest

    but it doesn't show which circulator is the boiler and which is the hot water loop. a wet rotor circulator isn't necessarily the best idea on the boiler side because of all the rust in the boiler water.
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 561
    HW side is Taco 105.
    Steam side is Taco 006 B.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,406
    The pump you have has endured over 50 years of use. I would suggest following the advice of the Taco folks on the other thread and replace it with a 007. If you buy the one with reversed flanges and you are able to slide the copper pipe 3/8" toward the wall, it should be a simple bolt-on installation.
    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-007-F5-8IFC-007-Cast-Iron-Circulator-with-Integral-Flow-Check-1-25-HP
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 4,272
    Perhaps adding this sign near the pump will solve the problem. That pump should be old enough to read.
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    Looks like in the other thread someone from taco offered to give them an 007 if they sent the old circulator to them for their museum.
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40
    Is the Taco SF5 or the Taco F5 better to replace?  Or the B&G series 100 BRONZE?  Can someone tell me what the difference is in terms of their appropriateness?  Thanks
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,983
    edited November 22
    Is the hot water loop coming directly from the bottom of the boiler? If so, no wet rotor circulator will last due to the condition of the water.

    This is why a bronze three piece circulator should be used.

    Dan recommends this in one of his books.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    Ironman said:

    Is the hot water loop coming directly from the bottom of the boiler? If so, no wet rotor circulator will last due to the condition of the water.

    This is why a bronze three piece circulator should be used.

    Dan recommends this in one of his books.

    Look at the other post. There is an ancient shell and tube hx that looks like a water main. Someone above extracted from the other post we think this is on the emitter side of the hx.
    Zman
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,260
    @EzzyT @JohnNY @clammy all work in NJ, not sure if any of them go to Princeton or not.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 646
    Do you have access to Taco tag? 
    Trying to understand which product you have before diagnosis.
    if it’s a three piece pump oiling motor through oil fill hole is necessary snd recommended following instruction sheet recommended interval.
    is the pump moving water now? 
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,406

    Do you have access to Taco tag? 

    Trying to understand which product you have before diagnosis.
    if it’s a three piece pump oiling motor through oil fill hole is necessary snd recommended following instruction sheet recommended interval.
    is the pump moving water now? 
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/185531/taco-no-105-1-circulator#latest
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    mattmia2
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40
    Thanks.  The smaller bronze taco seems to be for the water coming out of the boiler before it goes into the hx and the 105 after it goes out of the hx.  Is bronze series 100 still needed or what is the difference between the SS and the iron 007 in terms of application?
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    Cast iron wet rotor is fine and much less expensive on the heating loop which is sealed.

    The boiler water gets fresh oxygen from the air so it will create some rust which wouldn't play nicely with a cast iron or wet rotor circulator.
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40
    No tag, just the label I showed in the photo posted.
  • 1928steam
    1928steam Member Posts: 40

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    yeah, that is the closed side of the heat exchanger. A modern wet rotor cast iron circulator will be fine there. It wouldn't be a terrible idea to put a dirtmag in there to remove any iron particles that are in that loop.
    hot_rod
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 6,655
    What do you disagree with @hot_rod? Do you think there is too much iron debris in the closed side?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 17,531
    mattmia2 said:
    What do you disagree with @hot_rod? Do you think there is too much iron debris in the closed side?
    Sorry, meant to be “agree”. Hard to hit the opinion buttons on a phone
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,406
    hot_rod said:


    mattmia2 said:

    What do you disagree with @hot_rod? Do you think there is too much iron debris in the closed side?

    Sorry, meant to be “agree”. Hard to hit the opinion buttons on a phone

    If you hit the button again it goes away :)
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    mattmia2