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Derate cast iron boiler by removing sections?

RayWohlfarth
RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,065
I have customer with two cast iron sectional steam boilers in two schools. One has a power burner and the other an atmospheric burner. Due to the leaking sections, the customer wants to remove sections and repipe the boiler. On the one with the power burner, they are going to derate the boiler to 75% and the one with the atmospheric burner, they want to derate it to 66%
My question is
Does that void the boiler certification ie UL?
I know the boiler with the power burner will be oversized by 33% I am thinking they should replace the burner
Is the contractor on the hook for changing the boiler? Do they have to get new tags from the manufacturer?
Thanks
Always looking to learn
Ray Wohlfarth
Ray Wohlfarth
Boiler Lessons

Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,883
    I'm not sure about certifications, but wouldn't you expect the remaining sections to be questionable if some are already leaking?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    mattmia2
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,065
    @ChrisJ Thats what I told the owner. He could spend all this money to rearrange the sections and the other sections were exposed to the same conditions
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,883

    @ChrisJ Thats what I told the owner. He could spend all this money to rearrange the sections and the other sections were exposed to the same conditions

    And I guess you got the ol "No I'm sure they're fine".
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,440
    Not sure about the certifications, but you are going to have a jolly time adjusting the combustion parameters to fit the new fire box geometry. You're the test pilot. Have fun.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,883

    Not sure about the certifications, but you are going to have a jolly time adjusting the combustion parameters to fit the new fire box geometry. You're the test pilot. Have fun.

    To be fair, not very long ago that was a standard part of setting up any boiler, no?
    Look at all of the coal to oil and gas conversions that were done.

    As far as I know on large commercial boilers everyone has to set the burners up from scratch.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,971
    If the manufacturer makes that same boiler with less sections, all the set up info may be in there that you need. I think you're replacing more parts than just removing a few sections.
    But like the others mentioned, may be all for naught.
    steve
    Zman
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,755
    @RayWohlfarth , you and @ChrisJ are correct. If all they want to do is remove leaking sections, and you do so, you own it. They need to completely replace these boilers.

    If the existing boilers are oversized, now is the time to right-size the new ones.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 13,119
    Well the jacket has to be shortened/cut. The power burner being to large would/could be an issue. I suppose on the atmospheric you cut/plug off the removed burners.

    If both boiler models were sold as smaller boilers with less sections that I think you're ok to proceed. If the boiler inspection gets wind of this they may require a certified hydro which costs a few $$.

    We did this with a couple of reused Weil McLain 88s removed 3 sections. The smaller boiler called for the same power burner with some adjustments it has been ok.

    If the old boilers are leaking, I would be dubious, ours were in good shape
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,065
    @ChrisJ Exactly No money in the budget LOL
    @Jamie Hall Didnt think about that Thanks
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,065
    @EBEBRATT-Ed I just found out the boilers are close to 60 years old. I told the customer to replace them and allow the boilers to retire with dignity LOL
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 13,119
    @RayWohlfarth

    Good choice
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,911

    @EBEBRATT-Ed I just found out the boilers are close to 60 years old. I told the customer to replace them and allow the boilers to retire with dignity LOL

    If boilers were a bit older then they'd last longer?
    Around that time manufacturers narrowed water ways.
    Really old iron lasted forever.
    That's what I was told long ago by that Montreal company that stocked old sections and radiators.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,883
    jumper said:
    @EBEBRATT-Ed I just found out the boilers are close to 60 years old. I told the customer to replace them and allow the boilers to retire with dignity LOL
    If boilers were a bit older then they'd last longer? Around that time manufacturers narrowed water ways. Really old iron lasted forever. That's what I was told long ago by that Montreal company that stocked old sections and radiators.
    Many modern boilers seem to rott out in 5-10 years.  Nothing lasts forever but it seems many older boilers tolerate lots of makeup water and still go 60-80 years.

    I think @RayWohlfarth did the best thing for his customer 
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 13,119
    You will never come out ahead messing with sections on a 60-year-old boiler I don't care when it was made or what the quality of the Iron is
  • reggi
    reggi Member Posts: 317
    jumper said:
    @EBEBRATT-Ed I just found out the boilers are close to 60 years old. I told the customer to replace them and allow the boilers to retire with dignity LOL
    If boilers were a bit older then they'd last longer? Around that time manufacturers narrowed water ways. Really old iron lasted forever. That's what I was told long ago by that Montreal company that stocked old sections and radiators.
    If you were told this "Long Ago" and his boilers are 60 years old Now .. that would be Mfg in the early 60's
    If long ago was 20 years you were told the story that would be back to the 40's .
    I believe I recall reading they began mixing old metal into the boiler castings in the mid 60's but @Steamhead and others know more about that 
    One way to get familiar something you know nothing about is to ask a really smart person a really stupid question
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,065
    Well, the customer decided to have another contractor switch sections from both boilers and make a single working boiler. I do hope they get some use but winder how long they will get. Thanks to all for your wisdom
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,332
    When something like that happens, I always figure that I must've dodged a bullet.
    JUGHNESTEVEusaPA
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,065
    @ratio I hear that
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,434
    "They never made them like they used to"... :(
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,755

    @ratio I hear that

    This. You do not need to be involved with such a situation. There are better jobs.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 13,119
    @RayWohlfarth

    You should go out and celebrate!!