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Live Men Masquerading As Dead Men

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Ogg
Ogg Member Posts: 10
Welcome to another episode of “Jeff Hires A Contractor.” 

Could be the worst install I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot. Man, did it hammer and shake. Looked and sounded more like a washing machine. Guess they didn’t see that skim and blow down section before startup in the I/O. I think that is a HartHundai Loop instead of a Hartford Loop they’ve got going there. Yes and that’s five 90’s to hit the first main. Placement might have been somewhat arbitrary.Simple boiler replacement. This is what a licensed contractor left me with as a first attempt. Below is where we are now, after I forced them to tear it out and start over. Let’s actually use the I/O manual this time  Getting better, I suppose. Lost the battle w the factory rep to force a steel header, at the least. Factory engineer said absolutely not in copper. For all the right reasons. Erudite fellow. Factory sales rep said “Aw, cmon. Steel is just so darn expensive for homeowners.  We are very lenient w installers using copper. We will absolutely warrant this install.” I said “Great !!! Put that in writing !!! “ “ We will absolutely not put that in writing.” So. Copper. All that hammering cracked a cast iron 2” tee midstream down the back main. Between evolutions I took the opportunity to rebuild the main, correct the counter flow issue, add a new dry return and a proper main vent. In steel, of course. Cause I have big wrenches and access to a pipe threader. And not the one at Home Depit. I particularly like the new pressure gauge location. It shakes like a baby rattle when it gets to pumping and foaming. 

This evolution stopped working the minute they left for the second time. I found a low voltage ground fault in the pressuretrol. They used a crimped wire splice as a connector, then cut off the tail exposing the metal. All those vibes put it in contact w the housing. Boiler off.

 Well, maybe the third time is the charm. They say they are done. I pulled a permit, cause they didn’t. I’m going to get the latest thinking from the inspector on Romex boiler wiring strapped to a flex gas supply attached to a completely unsupported 1” gas pipe. And that ridiculous pressure gauge.

Not sure where I went wrong. Properly vetted this company. The owner even professed knowledge of Dan’s books. What he doesn’t know about single pipe residential steam systems is a lot. The installers of the first evolution were a HVAC installer w not even an apprentice card, and a helper. The owner of the company was there for the second evolution. He asked me, “Why didn’t you install the new boiler myself? You’re obviously qualified. You’re never going to accept our work.” I said, “My wife wouldn’t let me.” Well. I thought it was funny. 
ethicalpaul
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Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,841
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    443 area code on the sticker- Baltimore area?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Ogg
    Ogg Member Posts: 10
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    Ugh. Typos. Sry. *yourself
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,841
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    Ogg said:

    Ugh. Typos. Sry. *yourself

    ????????????
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,580
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    Wow....
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,305
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    What I l ike is the manual sitting prominently on top of the boiler... in its plastic envelope...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Dan_NJ
    Dan_NJ Member Posts: 247
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    What I l ike is the manual sitting prominently on top of the boiler... in its plastic envelope...

    In all fairness, the plastic bag is missing in the second round of pictures suggesting someone at least opened the manual. The copper on the other hand has not disappeared ...

  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 857
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    I called the factory for Columbia Boilers about a year ago to ask if they'd put in writing about using not copper for steam carrying piping.
    They absolutely refused to even discuss it with me, and told me to call the local rep.
    I did (knowing pretty much what I was going to hear).
    They told me in so many words that yes Gordo, the proper way to pipe in their boilers was with threaded steel, but, they didn't have that in writing, so, in other words... yadda yadda mouth noise.
    Slant Fin did pretty much the same thing.
    Weil-McLain did the same thing.

    And so it goes.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,527
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    As far as the "baby rattle" goes just shorten the nipple so it doesn't shake so much. :)

    Don't like the romex or the gastite
    OggSuperTech
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 857
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    Picky details... It looks like they installed the new style VXT that is infinitely rotatable... and they still mounted it sideways? Did I miss something?
    Also, the check valve on that feed line might not work as intended. It might as well be removed.
    I think the inspector is going to fail this install due to a lack of a proper back flow preventer.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    EBEBRATT-Ed
  • bucksnort
    bucksnort Member Posts: 167
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    Those are some really nice sweat joints. I'd give the sweater an A.
    SlamDunkmattmia2SuperTech
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    edited December 2021
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    Ogg said:
    I pulled a permit, cause they didn’t.

    The installers of the first evolution were a HVAC installer w not even an apprentice card, and a helper.

    The owner of the company was there for the second evolution. He asked me, “Why didn’t you install the new boiler myself? You’re obviously qualified. You’re never going to accept our work.” 
    So first off I would refuse to pay for work performed without a permit. And I wouldn't have pulled it for them. And in fact in a lot of jurisdictions HO's can't pull their own permits.

    Second I would refuse to pay until a qualified, licensed, and insured individual is the one doing the work or supervising it.

    And third... This is almost insulting... Sure one can be qualified to do their own brakes and oil changes too. But People have lives and responsibilities. In my case my time is more valuable then spending a saturday afternoon cussing at rusted bolts on my back in the driveway/garage. So I spend some coin to pay someone with the tools, space, and experience to do a better job quicker then I can... I think that applies to a lot of us here too.
    Ogg
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,737
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    Steamhead said:
    443 area code on the sticker- Baltimore area?
    @Steamhead too bad you didn’t get the call, it would look a whole lot different.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    SuperTech
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 857
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    It is interesting that the installer of the above boiler (finial version) has it pictured on their Facebook page and says "....we had an extremely grateful homeowner who is nothing but happy with the installation from start to finish".

    Oh my, you can't make this stuff up.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    SlamDunkEBEBRATT-EdSuperTech
  • Ogg
    Ogg Member Posts: 10
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    Yes, Baltimore. I completely forgot about you guys at ASUp.  Hmm that doesn’t look right. I’ve seen your work and heard nothing but the best about you. I was amused by the VXT as well. A new backflow preventer was in the contract. I’ll be changing that out as well as dropping the cold water feed after I repipe the106 year old wet return. Then new main vents and rad vents, all Gorton. Then insulation for all the pipes. What did I forget? Oh a flue liner in the spring. Then we start the new HVAC install. 
  • Ogg
    Ogg Member Posts: 10
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    Are you kidding me? I’m not on FB. I have no words. Well, words suitable for this forum anyway. 
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,737
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    Gordo said:
    It is interesting that the installer of the above boiler (finial version) has it pictured on their Facebook page and says "....we had an extremely grateful homeowner who is nothing but happy with the installation from start to finish". Oh my, you can't make this stuff up.
    A link to this thread in the comments would be interesting.

    lol
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 857
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    Thank you for the kind words about us!
    As for FB, I just googled the installer and their FB page came up.
    It was just out curiosity that I looked at their page and scrolled down....
    And there it was!
    For all the world to see.
    An alternate expression of reality before your very eyes.
    You have to sign in to comment, however.


    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,580
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    I think they removed it.
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 742
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    I don't know what may be code in other parts of the country, but that flexi hose stuff would never fly here. 😬 As to the Romex, don't get me started.
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • Ogg
    Ogg Member Posts: 10
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    Guess I might as well give you rest of the story. They showed up on time for the demo of the old boiler and it was out by 9:30 AM. Then all activity ceased. Furious texting followed by calls that had to be taken outside finally revealed that there was no boiler ready to be installed because they forgot to schedule its delivery. But it was not their fault, of course. Everyone leaves and the temp is dropping. Going to be 28 degrees that December night. No contact all day. I finally call their office in the late afternoon to inquire about the plan for heat. At 7pm, a guy shows up w 6 space heaters, new in the box, and leaves them on the front porch. It’s now 58 degrees inside. I have to unpack and assemble them and position them strategically throughout our 5 bedroom, 3 story house. We were up to 61 degrees by morning. Toasty. My wife was somewhat nonplussed. The supply house delivered the new boiler at 9am the next day. Took them almost 2 hours of head scratching and grunting and two more people to get it in the basement. Riggers they are not, nor plumbers either, apparently. It’s just not that big of a unit, I’m sorry. I’m still sorry. Thanks for the Facebook heads up. 
  • Gordo
    Gordo Member Posts: 857
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    SlamDunk said:

    I think they removed it.

    Still there. Gotta scroll down a bit.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
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    Gordo said:
    I think they removed it.
    Still there. Gotta scroll down a bit.
    Found it. o.O Also check out their reviews on google. Someone posted a glowing review of a repair they did using sharkbite fittings. Hey I'm not above using them my self in a pinch but I'm just a HO... I expect more from someone who sweats copper for a living.
  • mygardenshed
    mygardenshed Member Posts: 51
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    Ogg said:

    Welcome to another episode of “Jeff Hires A Contractor.” 


    Could be the worst install I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot. Man, did it hammer and shake. Looked and sounded more like a washing machine. Guess they didn’t see that skim and blow down section before startup in the I/O. I think that is a HartHundai Loop instead of a Hartford Loop they’ve got going there. Yes and that’s five 90’s to hit the first main. Placement might have been somewhat arbitrary.Simple boiler replacement. This is what a licensed contractor left me with as a first attempt. Below is where we are now, after I forced them to tear it out and start over. Let’s actually use the I/O manual this time  Getting better, I suppose. Lost the battle w the factory rep to force a steel header, at the least. Factory engineer said absolutely not in copper. For all the right reasons. Erudite fellow. Factory sales rep said “Aw, cmon. Steel is just so darn expensive for homeowners.  We are very lenient w installers using copper. We will absolutely warrant this install.” I said “Great !!! Put that in writing !!! “ “ We will absolutely not put that in writing.” So. Copper. All that hammering cracked a cast iron 2” tee midstream down the back main. Between evolutions I took the opportunity to rebuild the main, correct the counter flow issue, add a new dry return and a proper main vent. In steel, of course. Cause I have big wrenches and access to a pipe threader. And not the one at Home Depit. I particularly like the new pressure gauge location. It shakes like a baby rattle when it gets to pumping and foaming. 

    This evolution stopped working the minute they left for the second time. I found a low voltage ground fault in the pressuretrol. They used a crimped wire splice as a connector, then cut off the tail exposing the metal. All those vibes put it in contact w the housing. Boiler off.

     Well, maybe the third time is the charm. They say they are done. I pulled a permit, cause they didn’t. I’m going to get the latest thinking from the inspector on Romex boiler wiring strapped to a flex gas supply attached to a completely unsupported 1” gas pipe. And that ridiculous pressure gauge.

    Not sure where I went wrong. Properly vetted this company. The owner even professed knowledge of Dan’s books. What he doesn’t know about single pipe residential steam systems is a lot. The installers of the first evolution were a HVAC installer w not even an apprentice card, and a helper. The owner of the company was there for the second evolution. He asked me, “Why didn’t you install the new boiler myself? You’re obviously qualified. You’re never going to accept our work.” I said, “My wife wouldn’t let me.” Well. I thought it was funny. 
    You’ve made quite a few mistakes yourself there mate.
    You want it piped in steel? Steel it is.
    Gas line is a joke? Make it right.
    Ripping out the old unit with the new one not on site in winter? Not a good idea.
    Access to ‘big wrenches and pipe threading machine’? Put them to use.
    Wife telling you she doesn’t trust you? That’s a whole different forum.
    I’ve always felt if mistakes are going to be made I want them to be my mistakes.
    Hope you get this sorted and have a nice warm and happy new year.
    JakeCKOgg
  • Daveinscranton
    Daveinscranton Member Posts: 148
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    On the bright side, you have the boiler, in its proper place.  You didn’t have to move the old one or the new one yourself.  You have the permit.  You have the wrenches and threader.  And the know how it seems.

    Seems like there will be some squabbling over money.  Cannot help you there.  Or the wife.

    Perhaps it is time to just pipe what you want and be done with it.  Wrong season to be doing this I guess.  But.  If you find pleasure in a job done right, and have the time, consider it entertainment and you will be fine.  You are in for a couple of long days.  I have a girlfriend that was trying to dissuade me from doing my recent boiler replacement myself.  Worries about my age I guess.   She really struggles to even pick up my big wrenches.  (Just to see how heavy they are).  After seeing the dialing in process, she now understands the benefits of the DIY approach.  She does enjoy the toasty warm floors a lot.

    Best wishes.
    JakeCKOgg
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,580
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    No, if I decide to hire a pro, then it will be a pro that does all the work. In this case, a lot depends on what is in the contract. And, how much the job cost.

    Sometimes you get what you pay for.

    But Always, the lion's share of full payment will hinge on passing inspection. Whether it be mine or a municipality. The contract would have details that leave little to interpretation.
    JakeCK
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    I think that is a HartHundai Loop instead of a Hartford Loop they’ve got going there.


    Hyundai's warranty is amazingly good. What's Ford's? 3/36 and out?

    https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/assurance/america-best-warranty
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    Ogg
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,692
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    I think that is a HartHundai Loop instead of a Hartford Loop they’ve got going there.
    Hyundai's warranty is amazingly good. What's Ford's? 3/36 and out? https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/assurance/america-best-warranty
    Unrelated but if Hyundai sold a steam boiler it would probably last 50 years and actually get installed correctly.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    OggNYtimebomb
  • Ogg
    Ogg Member Posts: 10
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    Well, I surely made a mistake hiring these guys, I’ll admit. Demo a boiler w/o a replacement? In December? No one would ever do that. Especially after they texted that all the pieces had been procured, it never occurred to me to check. Not my mistake. As to my wife, she trusts me implicitly and is properly awed by my work. Lol. Seriously, she feels that I’m supposed to be spending more time w her taking long walks on the beach and watching sunsets. I couldn’t oggree more! 

    Update: Permit is pulled an inspection scheduled for next Friday. So oggcited.
    ethicalpaul
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,692
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    Ogg said:
    Well, I surely made a mistake hiring these guys, I’ll admit. Demo a boiler w/o a replacement? In December? No one would ever do that. Especially after they texted that all the pieces had been procured, it never occurred to me to check. Not my mistake. As to my wife, she trusts me implicitly and is properly awed by my work. Lol. Seriously, she feels that I’m supposed to be spending more time w her taking long walks on the beach and watching sunsets. I couldn’t oggree more! 

    Update: Permit is pulled an inspection scheduled for next Friday. So oggcited.
    The problem is I've seen many pass inspection piped completely wrong.

     :/ 
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    mygardenshedmattmia2
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,852
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    Code is the minimum standard. Doesn’t mean is proper. 
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbesmattmia2
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,478
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    The building inspectors I've dealt with are absolutely clueless when it comes to steam. The only thing they pay close attention to is their tee time. Anything goes as long as it has something that looks like a back-flow preventer.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    ethicalpaul
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,230
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    Ogg said:


    Could be the worst install I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot.
    I've seen a lot, too. As far as terrible boiler installations go, this one is pretty good. At least they know how to solder. They put a skim tee in place, used a 45° angle on the system riser, installed a full-port bottom flush tee, the boiler isn't dented or covered in pipe dope. I don't know the boiler size but it looks to me like one boiler take-off is enough and probably lists it that way in the manual.

    Anyway, I'm wondering how much contractor shaming is enough and I'd rather see this post with the company name obscured.

    Am I wrong?
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
    EBEBRATT-Edratio
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,692
    edited January 2022
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    JohnNY said:

    Could be the worst install I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot.
    I've seen a lot, too. As far as terrible boiler installations go, this one is pretty good. At least they know how to solder. They put a skim tee in place, used a 45° angle on the system riser, installed a full-port bottom flush tee, the boiler isn't dented or covered in pipe dope. I don't know the boiler size but it looks to me like one boiler take-off is enough and probably lists it that way in the manual. Anyway, I'm wondering how much contractor shaming is enough and I'd rather see this post with the company name obscured. Am I wrong?
    If that was in my house and I had paid for it and they were refusing to fix it andmake it actually function correctly instead of bragging about how great it is.

    I don't know.

    We see an awful lot of completely wrong installs followed by "we always do it that way and have had no complaints". In fact you fixed a boiler for a friend of mine John and may have gone to court with her?  The other contractor claimed it was fine and steam is loud like that.  The thing barely heat the house.

    Everyone makes mistakes.

    It's those that admit it and correct them that make a difference.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,527
    Options
    I think we have all seen much worse,

    The Good

    The header was high enough, the order of take offs was right.

    The bad

    They only had one system take off from the header (we see this all the time)
    Only used 1 riser from boiler (again this happens all the time)
    They used copper. Since the boiler mfgs don't care and it is apparently legal should we care?
    Hartford loop was too high.......probably never looked in the manual and just eyeballed it


    Actually the wiring and the gas bother me more.

    But that is actually "standard practice" in some areas of the country" If you watch Utube videos from the south stuff like that wiring and gas piping (and much worse than that) is quite common and they don't give it a second thought.

    CSST is one product that scares the hell out of me

    The wiring and gas wouldn't pass inspection here in MA.
    BobC
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,653
    Options
    The copper at minimum is a problem because it can't give at threaded joints like black iron can and is rigidly attached to different sections of the boiler so it can try to pull the boiler sections apart as the piping and boiler expand and contract at different rates.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,527
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    @mattmia2

    I agree copper on the near boiler piping can be suspect. Everything is too close together and there is no flexibility for things to move.

    Outside of that many use it for returns and their was a recent post about a 1937 installed steam system all piped in copper and apparently ok. Out in the system where it has room to expand and contract it seems fine. Dunham Busch had their "select temp" system that Gerry Gill has installed and it's all copper.

    If I had my way everything would be pipe though
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,580
    Options
    But if manufacturers won't state that supply piping need to be iron only then copper is allowed. The installer can always use M/FNPT copper fittings to create swing joints- if manufacturer says they are required.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,230
    Options
    I see replacement steam boilers piped in copper all the time in New Jersey. Having no supporting documentation from any of the top three manufacturers, I've given up the fight on convincing homeowners that it's wrong or even less good than using threaded steel pipe and fittings.
    All of our steam boilers are properly piped with steel, of course, but I now reserve comment on the copper unless asked about it specifically.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
    SlamDunkCLamb
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,580
    Options
    I agree with your standard practices @JohnNY, but you were right in your earlier post. Can't really shame the contractor if he is installing per installation manual.

    I'm not luvin' that run of CSST (with romex strapped to it nor the wire nuts outside the cycle guard; the insulated wire on hot pipes or the open j-box knock outs with insulated, not armored, wire on sharp edges) but if they make it, it is probably legal.
    JohnNY
  • Ogg
    Ogg Member Posts: 10
    Options
    Latest update. The boiler failed inspection. They did come back before inspection to install a new backflow control valve to their credit. I asked the new guy if he would rotate the VXT 90 degrees while the low voltage wire was loose. Told me no, he didn’t have the fittings. Lol. He got really upset and said there was no other way to do it. I simply took out a 1/4” driver, a Phillips and rotated it. He stared at me w an open mouth. Funny but he stopped talking to me after that. Contractor shaming indeed.

     I do apologize for showing the sticker. I never even paid attention to it.

    Everything I asked them to do was required by the I/O. Everything they have to redo, the inspector says they have to, not just me. He wants the boiler cold water feed dropped below the boiler water level, preferably into the wet return on the floor. The skim tee fittings need to be on the other side of the boiler, away from the control side. The low voltage wires need a connector running into the Pressuretrol, all the low voltage wiring needs to be run out of contact w live steam lines and all connections need to be inside of boxes. The line voltage needs to be run in EMT and the 1” gas pipe feeding the WardTite, needs to be supported by the framing, not lashed to the water pipe w a couple of wire ties. 

    I also don’t appreciate them trying to get the inspector to pass the install by showing him a couple of pictures outside on my deck. Just a formality, nothing to see here. Lol. Excuse me sir, I just have a couple of questions ……..they SHOULD  be ashamed. I doubt they are though. 
    ethicalpaulEdTheHeaterMan