Plumbing-Heating Mechanics to work in North/Central New Jersey needed.

SlamDunk

Experience is a cruel teacher. She gives the test first,then teaches the lesson.

You should try to get to them first.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

@JohnNY You're a very patient man, John. Hang in there. You will be rewarded.

ChrisJ

JakeCK said:

Dealing with people on a daily basis who have to learn the hard way what a setscrew is and what happens when you turn a machine on with the tool holder loose. With the machine guards open none the less. 

I suspect I deal with the same stuff you do.

JakeCK

ChrisJ said:

JakeCK said:

Dealing with people on a daily basis who have to learn the hard way what a setscrew is and what happens when you turn a machine on with the tool holder loose. With the machine guards open none the less. 

I suspect I deal with the same stuff you do.

Quite likely.

My whole point is it's not just the bosses doing the hiring that are suffering. Employers everywhere are scraping the bottom of the barrel it seems.

KC_Jones

The process I had to go through to obtain a job with the electric company would have made that guys head explode.  A single sheet of questions, that’s virtually nothing.

I sent in my résumé, waited a month for the posting to close, another month for them to review applications.  I was then contacted to schedule a time to take their Tech Test.  That consisted of me taking a day off work, traveling into Baltimore City to spend the day taking what amounted to a standardized test. It was in 5 sections, 45 minutes to compete each section, breaks in between and a break for lunch.  After that they used the results of that test to decide who got an interview, I was one of those people.  The interview again required a day off work, took 3 hours, 45 minutes of that was another test for my knowledge of CAD software.  After that another few weeks of waiting before I found out I was hired.  I sent my résumé in July, started work in mid November.

And 7 years later they let me go.  Square peg round hole, I should have quit 6 months in.

george_42

I am 81 years old and just retired last year from my one person plumbing business. Recently I have decided to start taking calls from old clients for small jobs , I miss the work and the PEOPLE.

JakeCK

george_42 said:

I am 81 years old and just retired last year from my one person plumbing business. Recently I have decided to start taking calls from old clients for small jobs , I miss the work and the PEOPLE.

Bless you.

I only hope I'm so capable at 81.

EdTheHeaterMan

There are two points I want to make

Remember this thing called the baby boom? Remember how our parents wanted to make life easier for their children? And we in turn wanted to make it easier for our children! Well, the math has caught up with us. Baby boomer parents had larger families. My mom was one of 11 siblings and my dad was one of 7. I was one of only 4. My wife was one of 5. My wife and I had only 2 children. My daughter has only one and she is done!
As the masses of retired population increases in volume and lives longer, and there are les and less children to fill in the work force vacancy, The math will catch up.

Second Point
My son worked with me in high school to learn what he does not want to do the rest of his life. He got a BA and took a job in a publishing firm. When he found out he was going nowhere in that business, I invited him to work with me and he accepted. He got real good and enjoyed the work. Once he realized I was loosing my ability to walk, he did not want to "OWN" and operate a business, too many headaches! We sold the business to a friendly competitor that I believed was a good fit. He was not the easies guy to work for. So my son left the industry to work for an awning installing firm (who was a customer). He is now their #2 welder for awning frames. This new boss sees the value in this employee. The guy who bought my business does not see value in any employee and only is looking for mechanics that can generate income. even if they don't get it right.

Repair men of all trades have a bad rep. Auto mechanics, HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical...

I did OK as a businessman and I sold value in my product (My product was knowledge and the ability to get it right). If my product was defective (if I didn't get it right) there was a guarantee. This person that purchased my business thought it was fare to charge for a service even if they didn't get it right. "Somebody needs to pay for that time!" And I had a different philosophy: Only pay for what works. Because of this different way of treating customers, My son felt like he was cheating the customer when he had to charge more for stuff that the customer didn't need. This (the business owner) drove him away from the trade.

Just the rambling thoughts of an old crippled retired mechanic

Mr.Ed

DanHolohan

All true, and perfectly said, Mr. Ed. I’m glad you were baby-boomed. 😉

ScottSecor

I may have the answer you might not want to hear (read). We hired a twenty year old kid many years ago, he was a decent helper and would likely never amount to more than a helper/parts runner. Good kid, but not too bright.

After he was with for a few months we decided to offer health insurance to all of our employees. This particular employee got real nervous when the insurance agent asked each employee to fill out a simple form (name, date of birth, medical conditions, medical history, etc.) This employee asked me to talk to him privately for a minute. He confides in me that he really can't read or write that well (at this point he had been driving for about three years). Apparently, his mother has been filling out all of his paperwork for years and he did not feel comfortable doing it himself. I was amazed, still on good terms with this guy to this day.

As an aside he is a fork lift operator for a large food store chain and been employed by them for more than two decades. I'm not sure how he can pick orders all day long without being able to read or write?

Perhaps the fifty-one year old could not read or write either?

DanHolohan

Thank you, Scott. 

ScottSecor

I guess people in glass houses should not throw stones. Just re-read my earlier post and noticed I was missing words and made a few grammatical mistakes.

PC7060

ScottSecor said:

I guess people in glass houses should not throw stones. Just re-read my earlier post and noticed I was missing words and made a few grammatical mistakes.

Haha, I thought a 5-10% airer rate was ok as long as the redders can figger out what u meen! 😂

Seriously though, illiteracy is a challenge to both the individual and businesses. It’s often very difficult to get them to use available resources especially when you have language barriers as well. 

JohnNY

He actually just showed up.

ScottSecor said:

Perhaps the fifty-one year old could not read or write either?

Scott, I considered that. It truly was my first thought but he did fill out enough of the application that I think he could read. His attitude however was the worst thing about him. I wasn't even going to mention this but we have a parking area in front of our building that fits three cars. He pulled in on an angle and took all three spots plus blocked the sidewalk. I called him the office and asked him to move his car so that I could park and people could pass by without having to step into street. I waited for him. He came out of my office shaking his head as if to say "I can't believe this bullish!t", and he parked legally on the street.
There was just too much too wrong going on.

SlamDunk

Attitude is everything though. So is honesty. It could be he was able to read but he didnt have his reading glasses. He could have said so and received help filling out the application and answering the questions verbally. Then @JohnNY could have decided whether or not to hire him.

ChrisJ

JohnNY said:

He actually just showed up.

Perhaps the fifty-one year old could not read or write either?

Scott, I considered that. It truly was my first thought but he did fill out enough of the application that I think he could read. His attitude however was the worst thing about him. I wasn't even going to mention this but we have a parking area in front of our building that fits three cars. He pulled in on an angle and took all three spots plus blocked the sidewalk. I called him the office and asked him to move his car so that I could park and people could pass by without having to step into street. I waited for him. He came out of my office shaking his head as if to say "I can't believe this bullish!t", and he parked legally on the street. There was just too much too wrong going on.

Those who think they know more than everyone else cannot learn and cannot be taught.

I'm not sure if that applies to your Mr Wonderful but it seems to be true in general 

JakeCK

Parking like that is just rude, inconsiderate behavior period. 

You dodged a bullet. And a lot of liability. 

JohnNY

JakeCK said:

You dodged a bullet. And a lot of liability. 

Exactly. The last time I hired someone I knew was going to be a problem, and I thought maybe I could just keep the situation at bay, it bit me in the butt and left an indelible mark that I couldn't forget if I wanted to.

That was Jimmy from Long Island. Wow. A disaster of a human being.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I had a Disaster Jimmy once who convinced me he was a journeyman plumber and after a few weeks, I gave him some jobs to do on his own. It was a bad decision. I lost a few customers, contractors and thousands of dollars because of the errors he made. In the long run, I blame myself for not vetting him longer and also for not checking his work. It made me a lot more cautious on new hires.

KC_Jones

ScottSecor said:

I may have the answer you might not want to hear (read). We hired a twenty year old kid many years ago, he was a decent helper and would likely never amount to more than a helper/parts runner. Good kid, but not too bright.

After he was with for a few months we decided to offer health insurance to all of our employees. This particular employee got real nervous when the insurance agent asked each employee to fill out a simple form (name, date of birth, medical conditions, medical history, etc.) This employee asked me to talk to him privately for a minute. He confides in me that he really can't read or write that well (at this point he had been driving for about three years). Apparently, his mother has been filling out all of his paperwork for years and he did not feel comfortable doing it himself. I was amazed, still on good terms with this guy to this day.

As an aside he is a fork lift operator for a large food store chain and been employed by them for more than two decades. I'm not sure how he can pick orders all day long without being able to read or write?

Perhaps the fifty-one year old could not read or write either?

You'd be surprised how prevalent illiteracy actually is, and it genuinely makes no sense to me in this day and age. I work as a Mechanical Designer and we have multiple people in the shop who can't read. The situation was brought to engineering to make adjustments to our drawings to allow for this. The answer was emphatically "NO". My suggestion (that went on deaf ears), sign them up for adult learning classes, and make it a requirement of employment that the learn to read and write within 1 year, company pays for the classes. No one liked it. For me it would make them better employees, better citizens, and happier people because they don't feel the need to hide their "secret". Seems like nothing but positives, but no one saw it that way.

DanHolohan

Dyslexia has more than one side to it:

http://dyslexiahelp.umich.edu/success-stories/richard-branson#:~:text=​Branson is not alone,survey respondents identified as dyslexic.

JohnNY

@KC_Jones I think the reason your suggestion fell on deaf ears was probably due to the stigma of that process. Also, telling an adult illiterate to learn to read is like telling someone to stop being afraid of heights. It might not be something they are able to change.
But, I do agree there must be some other avenue to productivity and inclusion in a world of mostly literate people. I'm going to consider that above my pay grade.

SlamDunk

@DanHolohan, that is possible. Teachers give up on students with undiagnosed dyslexia. And students who don't know they have dyslexia sometimes give up on themselves.

I have dyslexia. But I'm no billionaire!

DanHolohan

I have dyscalculia, which is the inability to do just about anything with numbers. I've had this all my life and have adapted to it, but it's never been easy. My teachers thought I was dumb. Dyscalculia presents itself in ways like this: If you told me you were born in 1982, I would need a calculator to figure out how old you are.

This is why I use stories instead of formulas to explain things.

SlamDunk

Hmmm. I have never heard of that. I had to use my fingers.

JohnNY

My brother has dysnomia meaning he never knows the right name for anything or anyone, ever.

JakeCK

The brain is a weird thing. 

@DanHolohan I could never learn my multiplication table, yet I did just fine in algebra, geometry, and trig. Just as long as I had the time to do math long hand or could use a calculator.

HydroNiCK

JohnNY said:

 "I'm not going to fill this out." I asked "What do you mean?" and he explained that he was 51 years old, a career plumber, and would not fill out the form beyond his name and phone number. I'd be happy to tell you privately. I'm at a loss for words other than that.

Did it occur to you that maybe he didn't know how to read?   

ChrisJ

HydroNiCK said:

JohnNY said:

 "I'm not going to fill this out." I asked "What do you mean?" and he explained that he was 51 years old, a career plumber, and would not fill out the form beyond his name and phone number. I'd be happy to tell you privately. I'm at a loss for words other than that.

Did it occur to you that maybe he didn't know how to read?   

I'm betting reading and writing are a requirement of the job.

DanHolohan

@JakeCK, I took Algebra 1 four times. Still makes no sense to me. 

HydroNiCK

ChrisJ said:

HydroNiCK said:

JohnNY said:

 "I'm not going to fill this out." I asked "What do you mean?" and he explained that he was 51 years old, a career plumber, and would not fill out the form beyond his name and phone number. I'd be happy to tell you privately. I'm at a loss for words other than that.

Did it occur to you that maybe he didn't know how to read?   

I'm betting reading and writing are a requirement of the job.

Right. Or are they? I was waiting for that answer. In light of the discussion on not being able to find workers what if that guy was a good plumber but unfortunately is illiterate? Often times people act like that and are viewed as being a clown at face value..which is normal given the circumstance. But being illiterate is a possibility.  Some guys especially older guys never learned to because all they were taught was how to work and they got by on that.  If someone were to be blackballed in plumbing I think it should be for plumbing and not for lack of reading skills.  An employer may be ok with a guy not being able to read because he can rough 10 houses in a day by himself. Is it probable the guy was in fact just a moron? yes absolutely the chances are high.   Would I want an employee that could read? Yes.  But in this particular scenario I'm just saying I would hand him a copy of War and Peace and a shovel with a bag of cast iron fittings and see which he completes first.

SlamDunk

Can you get aplumbers license without being able to read? Isnt there a written test?

HydroNiCK

Also, apparently I don't know how to read forum posts and dates I thought my suggestion of the guy being illiterate  was a groundbreaking revelation.

HydroNiCK

"not being able to find anyone" can be a blanket statement.  Uttering the phrase  is the result of and is used to describe the result of different yet similar circumstances. Sometimes you do find someone but your present employees decide for you that you have not. It can be the environment or culture that turns them bad. Consider the following.  My grandfather was a tool n dye maker. He told me that when he first started a lot of guys would cover their work.  They didn't want him to learn and jeopardize their jobs.  When I started as a plumber apprentice I remembered what he told me when I saw it happen with others and experienced the same.  I remember starting at a new company and after   you have a good interview with the owner he chooses to hire you. I barely saw or talked to the boss again. Your next meeting is with your new partner/mechanic you get planted with. Often they are good guys.  Sometimes they aren't.  That person may not want you there. They don't want you to learn and are afraid they won't be relied on and needed since your faster and younger. Sometimes they are maniacs and certified sociopaths that would just abuse you.  I work with a couple of kids now that I can't imagine how they would be able to handle some guys I had to apprentice under.  However,. They made the boss money.  Since the owner was in the office he asks the guy who works with the new hire to give him a review.  The boss that felt you were a good hire now gets poisoned by another employees review. He lets the new hire go and the cycle starts again.  When you hire someone make it known that it's your investment you want to succeed. Don't base a decision on employees that might have a reason to hinder that.

SlamDunk

Geez. I am pretty sure the op knows how to run his business.

ScottSecor

Keep in mind I am going off on a tangent (yet again), sorry to derail this thread.

Funny others mention some math issues and especially those timetables. During the 1970's my grade school pounded timetables into our heads. We were tested on them extensively and I got pretty good at them. In the early 1980's I had a math teacher in middle school that hammered us with timetables all the way to 25, instead of 10. Again, I excelled at this as it made sense to me. To this day I can still easily do 13x13, 25x25, etc. What a gift....

Then higher level math came (Algebra 2 and Calculus) and I was forced to show my work and struggled. I had trouble visualizing all of the number and formulas on paper. I could do a lot of the math in my head, but got easily confused when forced to put it on paper. Took Calculus three times in college and finally realized I was not going to be an engineer.

I think basic math, reading and writing are as important as they ever were (yes even in the heating business). I'm reminded of this when I give a cashier cash and they need to make change. Call me old fashioned, but I'm still not convinced the smart phone is going to replace a decent education.

mattmia2

I never saw a point in memorizing multiplication tables. I knew a few and could find the one I needed from there which I think is a big part of what common core math does. Anything over 10 x 10 and estimating will get you in the ballpark. If you are specifying something to build you will soon need a calculator or spreadsheet or slide rule or log table anyhow.

Teaching algebra and calculus requires you teach the theory. You will never remember or understand it if you teach it as a cookbook.

DanHolohan

I have never been able to learn times tables, @ScottSecor. I’ve worked with flash cards as an adult. It just doesn’t stick. 

I also had Alice in Wonderland Syndrome as a child. No one believed me. I had no idea what it was until it showed up on an episode of House. Talk about seeing the world in a different way!

ChrisJ

My dad made me learn to 10s in 2nd grade.

It does come in handy when checking stock or deliveries etc.  

ScottSecor

A little embarrassing,  I taught our son and daughter how to do square roots.  He was about nine and she was about seven at the time.  Mom/wife is a grade school teacher,  she thought they were a little young 🤣