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Corona Virus - How will this effect our trade?

We're around people all day. In their homes, working on plumbing fixtures, HVAC equipment, radiators, boilers and a lot of others things other people have touched.

You go to the supply house and as soon as you step up to the counter, you're exposed.

Kinda' scary.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
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Comments

  • SeanBeans
    SeanBeans Member Posts: 505
    I’ve thought about this. I was telling my helper we might soon be working with masks on
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,890
    > @STEVEusaPA said:
    > Please Don’t feed into the nonsense.


    I wonder how many said what you said in spring 1918.....


    I suppose we'll know the truth in a year or two.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,218
    Too soon to know the extent of the issues we will see here.

    Certainly not too soon to follow the precautions the CDC suggests.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ChrisJZmanGrallert
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,434
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • nibs
    nibs Member Posts: 499
    My favorite wife is a retired microbiologist, she says it is going to be a bad one, people in our age (76yo) group have a 15% mortality rate.
    There have been a number of re-infections indicating that our immune systems are not very good at building antibody protection against this bug.
    Please stay at home if you are sick at all, if out working hand washing is the best defensive practice. The virus genie is out of the bottle, and infection counts could easily expand exponentially.
    If a vaccine was developed tomorrow, it will not be available in sufficient quantities for a year, so we are pretty much on our own.
    Our government is doing little to mitigate the disease and is taking no steps to inform people of the best epidemiological practices.
    The virus is 20 times worse than the common flu in terms of survival rates, so do not downplay the risks.
    Avoiding crowds and frequent hand washing is probably the best we can do.
  • nibs
    nibs Member Posts: 499
    PS. People are avoiding elevators and using stairs, problem is we do not have data yet on how long the bug will survive on handrails and door handles.
    If an infected person is packaging materials we do not know the bugs survival period may be.
    Hope for the best but Plan for the worst.
    Alan Welch
  • nibs
    nibs Member Posts: 499
    Oregon just got its first corona patient and the patient works at a school.
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,336
    Guess it's time to use open windows in your load calcs again.
    kcoppJohnNY
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,467
    Many moons ago, one of our greater presidents said it best, in his first inaugural speech, in 1933 -- which, for the historians, was in the depths of the Great Depression.

    "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

    It is as true now as it was then. I have no desire to get into the enthusiasm which some people have for stoking fear, nor why they should want to -- but they do. For the rest of us, take reasonable precautions (there are other diseases out there just as bad, if not worse, and accidents waiting to happen, and other bogeymen just waiting to get us, after all) and carry on.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    JUGHNEkcopp
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,542
    I was talking with the owner of a Chinese restaurant here. He has family in China and regularly communicates with them. He said it is much worse over there than reported.

    The small amount that I know about the virus is that an infected person generally wont show any symptoms for a two week period. That means no one knows they have it and spread it all that time. Scary stuff.

    The travel of people and goods all over the world has the potential to make something like this a terrible thing.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • mikeg2015
    mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,187
    Masks only help if your in close proximity to infected people and they do more to stop the spread of infection, if your are infected. They do little or nothing “out in the open”.

    This virus is about 10x more deadly and it;s more contagious as it spreads during incubation period, unlike more other viruses. So it is serious. But it;s also not like 10% of the population will die. But 1% might. Which is 10x more than normal flu. It will cull at risk populations. Most healty adults and children will be OK.

    Sadly, with modern medicine, where natural selection is in a sense artificially bypasses, these types of pandemics are almost a nessesity to maintain a healthy population with strong immune systems. I believe as a whole, humans are far, far weaker than just 50-100 years ago.

    Nature cannot be stopped and the harder we try to prevent death, the worse and worse viruses will become, like a genetic arms race.


    Best defense is living in a more rural area with smaller populations. I can go a week without coming in direct contact with more than maybe 100 people even if I go to the grocery store. When i lived in the suburbs, that number is maybe 1000 or more. And the effect is exponential as those 1000 contact 1000 each and so on.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,977
    nibs said:

    My favorite wife...

    How many wives do you have?
    steve
    Solid_Fuel_ManZman
  • mikeg2015
    mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,187
    For reference, the Spanish Flue in 1918 killed about 1.7% of the world population. SO factoring in modern medicine, the 1% rate of the coronavirs is probably on par.

    HVAC was impacted in 1918. Greater attention was given to ventilation of buildings. Residential homes had oversized heating systems installed after 1918 until the late 1920’s so that one could open a window for fresh air, which was believed ot help stop the spread of infection.

    I bought a home down the street form my current residence built in 1922. It had an abandoned 2 pipe steam system, but most radiators were still there. I calculated it had around 1000EDR for a 3200sqft home! It only required about 75k BTU to maintain 69F at -10F with good storm windows installed. My current home needs around 110k BTU peak in the same conditions, but has a lot more mass, so uses even more heat comparatively and has around 700EDR installed originally in 1905.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,977
    edited February 2020
    SARS, West Nile, Bird Flu, Zika, Ebola, just to name a few...remember all the hysteria surrounding them? Right now far less illness and death from all of them combined than what happens every year with the flu.

    My point it it remains to be seen. It could be horrible.

    Keep in mind especially in China, the density of the cities, the lack of hygiene, poorer health, poorer health system, lack of reporting, corruption, etc. They're not big on respecting personal space.

    I'm not wearing a mask, just like I didn't buy plastic sheeting and duct tape after 9/11.
    What's more important is that smart people in the US and around the world are working on it.

    ...Now back to helping the umpteenth homeowner with wiring a NEST.
    steve
    flat_twincoby
  • nibs
    nibs Member Posts: 499
    @STEVEusaPA
    nibs said:
    My favorite wife...
    @steve said
    How many wives do you have?

    Steve, we will leave that to your imagination.
    Solid_Fuel_Mancoby
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,498
    Re favorite wife, just don’t let them know, it keeps them on their toes!
    ratio
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,467
    Two thoughts... first, let's keep politics out of the game, It doesn't help.

    But second (well, maybe first -- consider my signature!). We all get various ailments from time to time, some worse, some less so. More to the point, we all will die at some point. The question isn't -- or shouldn't be -- how do I avoid that, but how do I, personally, manage that?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 3,507
    edited February 2020
    Both sides can sling mud and it will get us absolutely nowhere. I didn't intend for this thread to drop into disunity. For the most part, we all get along well here as long as we remember our manners. I'd fight alongside all of you if our country were threatened and this just may be an instance where this is happening, so let's be friends.

    @mikeg2015 said, "Best defense is living in a more rural area with smaller populations. "

    Last week, I told my wife that we should move to the desert if this thing gets worse.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,760
    mikeg2015 said:

    I bought a home down the street form my current residence built in 1922. It had an abandoned 2 pipe steam system, but most radiators were still there. I calculated it had around 1000EDR for a 3200sqft home! It only required about 75k BTU to maintain 69F at -10F with good storm windows installed. My current home needs around 110k BTU peak in the same conditions, but has a lot more mass, so uses even more heat comparatively and has around 700EDR installed originally in 1905.

    And of course you got the steam system working again, right?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,984
    edited February 2020
    We had to remove some posts. Please follow site rules - Unless your post relates directly to the heating industry, do not post about politics. Thank you.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
    Sal Santamauracoby
  • This country is being threatened if Kovid-19 goes viral.

    I'd like to hear from heating professionals what plans they have for protecting themselves and serving their clients if this comes about. How can you do both?
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,467
    I'm not really sure, @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes , that one can. Corvid-19 is a coronavirus -- in the same large group of virus which includes the common cold and a host of other respiratory diseases. Apparently less contagious than some, but more tending to greater illness. If one believes that normal prudent precautions are inadequate -- such things as hand washing, avoiding close contact with individuals who really are ill, etc., I suppose the only thing is self-isolation -- which, of course, makes it difficult to serve one's clients.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,977
    I have no plans yet. If it becomes the huge epidemic where schools/businesses are closed, etc. and the government is telling people to stay home, I'll give it more thought.
    There's not a whole lot you can do.
    You'll have to decide if you want to dress up in full hazmat gear/respirator, work like you normally do, or stay home. You just won't know who has it, who had it, and who's infected.

    For people with less means and others, maybe get a little frugal. Save as much money as you can, stock of on essentials, ride it out.
    steve
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,540
    edited February 2020
    I listened to a doctor from the CDC this morning. He said people are thinking about the masks backwards. They offer little or no protection for the wearer. Their intent is for a sick person to wear them to prevent (as much as possible) them from sneezing and/or coughing and spraying on others so wearing one while you work is not likely to protect you from the virus.
    Besides that, as a homeowner, I'd be concerned that a service tech who has been in numerous houses would deliver the virus to my home. I would expect house calls and the associated revenue stream to drop off significantly. I think having reserve funds would be an equal maybe even greater concern.
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    edited February 2020
    I never paid much attention to saying .....don't touch your noses, eye, or mouth in winter without washing your hands first. Seemed every year I got a cold.

    Few years ago I did that recommendation, didn't get a cold. Takes a bit to methodically not touch your rub your eyes or touch your nose and month though.

    -=----------------

    Since they say it's spread by sneezes and coughs , my guess is masks only stop and absorb tiny "water" droplets sneeze makes. I'm GUESSING these common masks are too coarse to filter out even bacteria. IIRC Bacteria are > 2 microns ( 0.000079 inch) in size, at a medical company we used 2 micron filter to remove bacteria from water. I believe viruses are even smaller in size.

    Just a good idea to minimize contact with other people. I'm guessing Corona 19 virus will come to an end with warm weather , just like other colds and viruses do.

    To make cold winter air more tolerable I wear a disposable car bodywork paper dust mask. Makes outside winter air feel warmer. I wear it in winter. Guess it's humidity, mask gets damp when exhale and that humidifies air you inhale. That type mask might help with virus. Big benefit I see with that type mask is it seals to your face well, dome shape. I question how well seal is with those "napkin" type masks they show on TV news.

    Mask = Magid Glove and safty manufacturing co
    Chicago IL ......marked Precision safty products PR10050....... 50 pack UPC code 0-49704-82007-1
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,495
    There must be some 'ignorance is bliss' magic to the rural lifestyle; I honestly just had to Google "corona virus" to see what y'all are even talking about, but after some light reading it sure seems to be oddly similar to the supposed deadly virus outbreaks we seem to have every 4 years that never materialize. Maybe it's the fact that I only see 10 live humans in a given week and 4 are the same ones, but I, for one, am not going to worry about this for 1 second until it begins to affect us.
    mikeg2015
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    From another website:
    "He's not flashy or sensationalistic, but this UK doc has been putting out some good overviews of the legit publications on CV, and on a daily basis..."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbZRe6NCuo8
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,540
    @GroundUp , It is starting to affect us. Washington State had its first death this morning. Several states have a few confirmed cases and other states have people in isolation to monitor them. There are travel restrictions to several Asian and European countries who have many more confirmed cases and the Stock market took a 3500 point dip this past week as a result of market concerns of the potential of this virus.
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,495
    Fred said:

    @GroundUp , It is starting to affect us. Washington State had its first death this morning. Several states have a few confirmed cases and other states have people in isolation to monitor them. There are travel restrictions to several Asian and European countries who have many more confirmed cases and the Stock market took a 3500 point dip this past week as a result of market concerns of the potential of this virus.

    Just like the other "epidemics".
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,540
    GroundUp said:

    Fred said:

    @GroundUp , It is starting to affect us. Washington State had its first death this morning. Several states have a few confirmed cases and other states have people in isolation to monitor them. There are travel restrictions to several Asian and European countries who have many more confirmed cases and the Stock market took a 3500 point dip this past week as a result of market concerns of the potential of this virus.

    Just like the other "epidemics".
    No, not like the others but we all have to decide for ourselves and our families if/how we want to respond to any potential threat. I tend not to over-react but I don't typically bury my head in the sand. I think all that is being said, on this thread, is just be aware and if/when precautions are necessary, take them, for the sake of yourself, your family and those you may come in contact with.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,467
    I'm with @GroundUp up on this one, @Fred -- and the stock markets' reaction is an almost textbook example of the effect of fear (on what was, realistically, an overheated market anyway). See my quote from President Roosevelt, above.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Alan (California Radiant) ForbesGroundUp
  • mikeg2015
    mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,187
    Steamhead said:

    mikeg2015 said:

    I bought a home down the street form my current residence built in 1922. It had an abandoned 2 pipe steam system, but most radiators were still there. I calculated it had around 1000EDR for a 3200sqft home! It only required about 75k BTU to maintain 69F at -10F with good storm windows installed. My current home needs around 110k BTU peak in the same conditions, but has a lot more mass, so uses even more heat comparatively and has around 700EDR installed originally in 1905.

    And of course you got the steam system working again, right?
    I was before I was in the trade, and it had been gutted. Even now, not sure I would have attempted to put it back in service. 1/4 of hte radiators removed, much of the condensate piping removed, evidence of major steam leaks. Boiler (likely oil with gas conversion) had been removed and oversized furnaces installed about 10 years before I moved in. They have 180k between 2 furnaces and 7 tons of AC. I put in two 60k furnaces and two 2 ton AC units. On really hot days I disabled high stage as part of “utility cycling”. Cooled the whole place with about 3-1/2 tons when it was 105F outside. It had almost 4’ deep overhangs on the roof.

    I did some research on a hot water conversion. But gave up as hte costs rose quickly since I couldn’t do most of th work.

    If could had the house now and could do it over again, I’d probably do a hot water conversion, easier to fish new PEX than recipe black. Since it already had ductwork and furnaces , made the most sense to just put in good quality furnaces. Had a nice Carrier Infinity system with modulating furnace downstairs an 2 stage upstairs. Miss that house. Historic, yet very modern at the same time.


  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,368
    Masks? Ha!

    There are no masks anywhere! My pharma company received several cases of masks and put them under lock and key. Not for me to use; for the operators who manufacture our drugs to use.

    Our local hospital threatened to fire anyone who gets caught taking any supplies home.

    How many trades jobs require a mask for ppe are going to have be idled until this is over with?

    All kinds of jobs can be idled by this. Let's hope this does fades away with warmer weather.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,467
    One of the things I do with my time -- besides hanging out here on the Wall! -- is my priest and I go to nursing homes and assisted living homes several times a week to visit and encourage the sick, and lead services or bring the sacraments; whatever is needed. Our protocol hasn't changed, and we don't expect it will. If the resident has a respiratory illness, they will be wearing a mask; if we have visited an ill person, we wash (thoroughly!) between visits... if either of us has a respiratory illness, we simply don't go -- masks do nothing for virus illnesses, and a lot of our people are immunocompromised one way or another, so they don't help. We have had one visit recently cancelled completely -- an outbreak of novovirus, which is really contagious. We do wear provided gowns over our vestments when visiting, but not for services.

    We will take just such precautions as we would for colds or influenza as a matter of course. Are we fools? Perhaps -- but I think not.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    edited March 2020
    I know this won't be popular but,

    Dad 99.5 was in a nursing home and died from a cold in winter, February. Getting the cold was a blessing for him. He was in pain and had to take oxycodine, and he didn't want to be on it . And he couldn't do much by himself, basically in "storage", waiting.

    Thinking back 15 years before that I remember he was in a recovery care home (it was a nursing home) to recover from surgery in winter. Flu was going around, sign on door said if you have flu don't enter. Would place the old patients at risk. I didn't have the flu. Dad was eager to come home that time since he was relatively in good shape, at only 85.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,540
    Common sense has to prevail. I know the old quote "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" but hopefully, at the end of the day we all realize that quote was a "Pep" talk that has no merit or any scientific foundation. Take precautions when and where appropriate and I'm not just talking about the corona virus.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,467
    Hmm. Well, I would say that fear, as an emotion, is one of the more powerful ones. And the problem with it is that is almost always paralyzing to the person experiencing fear (using the modern, not early (say Elizabethan), sense of the word -- best not get off on that meaning shift!). Reasonable precautions? Yes, always. That's common sense. Respect of risk? Yes. But fear? No.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,368
    I’ve been around too long to be afraid. Not to make light of this virus but remember Y2K?

    The fear that everything was going to suddenly fail at midnight new year day? Businesses had to become y2k compliant! Whatever that meant. What a panic!

    I have become somewhat Buddhist over the years. manage what you can and dont worry about what you cant. worry is a waste of time.
    BillyO
  • nibs
    nibs Member Posts: 499
    Have not read every post in this thread but here is the info on masks.
    1) most masks are not fine enough to strain out the virus.
    2) viruses can enter the body through the eyes, either via airborne droplets or from unwashed hands rubbing the eyes.

    Most often it is via respiratory organs and from hand contact.
    It can be water born and drunk if coughed or sneezed upon by an infected person.

    The fave wifes career comes in handy at these times.