I'm staying right here.

Steve Minnich

In the last few weeks, I've been lingering around various other heating groups on social media. It was a short lived exercise. I recognized a lot of names that hang out there, but it was the ones I didn't know that really caught my attention. Not all of them, but many.

The level of Monday morning quarterbacking, unneeded accusations of hackery, foul language, and the like really turned me off; and it was very rare to see someone offering constructive criticism. The few times I saw the latter was usually from a Wallie. But the thing that really shocked me was overt racism and the use of racial epithets. I, for the life of me, don't understand how or why that's allowed. And how does any of that help our industry? It makes us look like a bunch of immature knuckleheads who were brought up wrong.

I'm no angel by any stretch but I believe in decorum, respect, and promoting our industry in a professional manner. I appreciate HH more than ever because I had no idea that many of the other sites were like that. Naive, on my part I guess. Thanks for keeping the bar held high. The others could learn a lot by following your lead.

JUGHNE

I have probably been to where you speak.
I browse thru and pick a few things to read.
Format is to busy for me.
Little in the way of steam and water. Many are referred to this site for help in those matters.

hot_rod

Steve Minnich said:

In the last few weeks, I've been lingering around various other heating groups on social media. It was a short lived exercise. I recognized a lot of names that hang out there, but it was the ones I didn't know that really caught my attention. Not all of them, but many.

The level of Monday morning quarterbacking, unneeded accusations of hackery, foul language, and the like really turned me off; and it was very rare to see someone offering constructive criticism. The few times I saw the latter was usually from a Wallie. But the thing that really shocked me was overt racism and the use of racial epithets. I, for the life of me, don't understand how or why that's allowed. And how does any of that help our industry? It makes us look like a bunch of immature knuckleheads who were brought up wrong.

I'm no angel by any stretch but I believe in decorum, respect, and promoting our industry in a professional manner. I appreciate HH more than ever beacause I had no idea that many of the other sites were like that. Naive, on my part I guess. Thanks for keeping the bar held high. The others could learn a lot by following your lead.

At first I though it was just sarcasm, which is tough to pull off via a keyboard. But, yeah I got the same impression too much name calling and criticism. Not sure how that helps the discussion or trades?
May be the new way to communicate, seems to start at the top these days.

Steve Minnich

@JUGHNE - There were some threads that were worthwhile, here and there, but not enough to keep me there.

Steve Minnich

@hot_rod - Keyboard warriors and unrelenting trolling is the rule.

Zman

I think that the "Be Nice" rule is the key to it. Before you click on the post button, you ask yourself if you are being nice? If not, it is time to reword it.

I work with a youth sports program that recently adopted a new culture change initiative. We decided to clearly state what we are and what we are not. The what we are category varies a bit by team and includes respect, sportsmanship, achieving goals together....

The powerful part is what we don't do, we don't BCD (blame, complain, or deflect). Sure the ref made a bad call, we can't change that and need to rise above it. After a while, it becomes easy. We give each other friendly (usually) ribbing when we fall below the bar. "Hey Carl, I get how you feel but I think I am hearing some BCD".

It is amazing what can be accomplished with some basic ground rules and mutual respect.

Steve Minnich

I have a label of the acronym THINK on my laptop.

Is it True?
Is it Honest?
Is it Inspiring?
Is it Necessary?
Is it Kind?

I fall short more than I'd like to, but I'm trying.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I agree completely Steve. I used to frequent several forums. HH is both knowledgeable and funny (cleanly). That is all I ever need!

I enjoy a good debate and like to hear why others do things differently. I cannot stand the foolish name calling or otherwise bigotry and cussing. I have to deal with enough of that on the jobsite. I cant leave a jobsite until the job is done. An online forum is done if that happens for me.

Erin and Dan have made and kept a very good thing going here!

SlamDunk

Steve Minnich said:

I have a label of the acronym THINK on my laptop.

Is it True?
Is it Honest?
Is it Inspiring?
Is it Necessary?
Is it Kind?

Now I have one on mine!

Steve Minnich

@Solid_Fuel_Man Exactly! I get a daily dose of that on Twitter.

MikeL_2

I've been banned from several sites just for pointing out how confrontations instead of conversations make our trade look bad. I always prefer a discussion vs an argument; opinions, experiences, successes & failures can and should be discussed without insults and foul language.

HVACNUT

I've never strayed from HH. I'm monogamous. You guys should be ashamed. Not really. When my wife catches me looking, I tell her, "Just because someone's on a diet, doesn't mean they can't look in the refrigerator".

JUGHNE

DIYer's get beat up on some other sites.
Here IMO, they get helpful advice and often told to hire a pro that they are in over their head.
A lot of posters here needing help/advice show up because they thought they hired a pro to begin with. Those with no obvious problems aren't asking questions.

Besides, this site has the best boiler porn!

SeanBeans

I’m with you @Steve Minnich

icy78

Thanks for this topic @Steve Minnich. It's a good reminder for me , I tend to be short and abrasive at times. One thing I will say, (as I believe I know the one or two sites you're talking about ) is that I think the average age is considerably lower than this site, so less restraint. Not an excuse, just an observation.
I love perusing HH even tho a lot is steam, and over my head. You guys have helped me a few times.
To be fair, one of the other sites has definite, no DIY rules , and that is constantly being tested. However many of the responses could be greatly tempered.
Thanks again.👍

KC_Jones

icy78 said:

To be fair, one of the other sites has definite, no DIY rules , and that is constantly being tested. However many of the responses could be greatly tempered.

Thanks again.👍

While I understand the perspective of having rules like that, I know, for a fact, I am more talented than some who are doing it professionally. So to automatically assume DIY means bad or poor work is a bit elitist IMHO.

This is one reason I love this site, you don't automatically assume I am dumb because I'm not a pro. You allow me/us to open our mouth and prove where we are first. Of course we have had some pretty poor DIY pop up around here at times and it bothers me as much as it does a professional.

@Steve Minnich I agree strongly with your sentiment. I have been known to be a bit rough around the edges so I know I am not perfect, but the manners around here are far better than many other places on the net and I like that.

Steve Minnich said:

I have a label of the acronym THINK on my laptop.

Is it True?
Is it Honest?
Is it Inspiring?
Is it Necessary?
Is it Kind?

I fall short more than I'd like to, but I'm trying.

I'm stealing this one, hanging it on my work and home monitors.

Steve Minnich

@MikeL_2 - I thought of calling them on that too, but I knew I'd be called this, that, and the other thing and that would get my Irish up. I didn't want that. I'm the calmest guy in the room until I'm not.

"A man's gotta know his limitations."

STEVEusaPA

If were 'talk'ing about the same site, the other sites' strict no DIY policy seems to be borne out of their sentiment that if someone does something that was recommended and something bad happened, they could be sued. And someone could read a post that doesn't exactly pertain to their issue and could do something dangerous, and they could be sued.
I just wonder if anyone was able to sue anyone else for doing something that turned out to be wrong/damaging/dangerous, which they read on the internet.
If so it would seem to immediately put YouTube out of business.

Their other beef is some notion that if you tell people how to fix their equipment, they will put you out of business. That ship has pretty much sailed as anything you want to know how to do is out there if you search for it.
I don't necessarily think that every non-professional should try to fix their own equipment, but I don't offer advice on things that would be dangerous to a complete amateur, like working on the combustion side of an oil burner without the proper tools/skills.

I do like the locked forums for vetted professionals (probably semi-vetted) There is some great info on there, tech to tech.

SlamDunk

You tube has saved my bacon more than any tool I have ever owned.

This site has been invaluable to me. I'm probably one of the few in the south with a 2-pipe steam system so there is no calling a pro to help. The four major boiler companies in this area work with me keeping my employer up and running but they won't look at residential.

KC_Jones

STEVEusaPA said:

Their other beef is some notion that if you tell people how to fix their equipment, they will put you out of business.

If they go out of business due to DIY, their business is sinking already. Look at my post about the Fire Museum, that is fairly representative of the work I see in my area, but me being DIY is a problem....that's laughable.

STEVEusaPA

KC_Jones said:

STEVEusaPA said:

Their other beef is some notion that if you tell people how to fix their equipment, they will put you out of business.

If they go out of business due to DIY, their business is sinking already. Look at my post about the Fire Museum, that is fairly representative of the work I see in my area, but me being DIY is a problem....that's laughable.

I agree with you there. I'm 54+. Growing up we fixed our cars, mowed our grass, shoveled snow, patched the roof, fixed the plumbing/electrical, anything we could. No YouTube, and not even the right tools all the time.

Actually to your point, if someone is worried that helping someone else on the internet will affect their income, stay off the internet and get to work, right?

Steve Minnich

There was this great couple I did a lot of boiler for when I was a contractor. Both he and she were in their late 50’s and actually got my name from this site.

They could do anything as good or better than most contractors could in almost any trade. They are/were that good.

I think it’s safe to say that there are many qualified homeowners and many contractors who could do much, much better.

Right?

KC_Jones

STEVEusaPA said:

KC_Jones said:

STEVEusaPA said:

Their other beef is some notion that if you tell people how to fix their equipment, they will put you out of business.

If they go out of business due to DIY, their business is sinking already. Look at my post about the Fire Museum, that is fairly representative of the work I see in my area, but me being DIY is a problem....that's laughable.

I agree with you there. I'm 54+. Growing up we fixed our cars, mowed our grass, shoveled snow, patched the roof, fixed the plumbing/electrical, anything we could. No YouTube, and not even the right tools all the time.

Actually to your point, if someone is worried that helping someone else on the internet will affect their income, stay off the internet and get to work, right?

I'm 45 and if my dad or grandfather found out I hired someone (I have not) for a job I think I'd get yelled at like a 12 year old. I learned to be self sufficient, do it yourself or don't do it. They hired people on occasion, but only for those things beyond their ability or comfort level. My father has his oil burner professionally serviced yearly, doesn't have the tools or knowledge.

We did our own work, boats, cars, houses, I have gotten a little into heating which they never did so I have one up on them now. My father was a mechanic by trade, worked in power plants for 32 years, he taught me so much over the years.

I want to be clear I don't dislike contractors, I dislike poor workmanship and lack of desire to know better.

icy78

@KC_Jones . My comments about DIY were not ment as demeaning. Nothing demeaning about DIY. Many "DIYers" can out skill me, I'll freely admit that.
In defense of other sites I will point out that most ,if not all, of the disparaging comments are by say...10-20 people...out of the thousands of members.

KC_Jones

I have not taken any comments as demeaning, so we are good on that front.

EdTheHeaterMan

There is Boiler Porn?
Is that under strictly steam?

EBEBRATT-Ed

HH is the best!

DIYers get respect here, the effort to keep them safe goes on but is in there hands ultimately.

I stopped going to one electrical site, too much backstabbing and vicious comments

JUGHNE

Ed The heater man, yes many pictures, but I mainly come here to read the articles.

SeanBeans

I’m okay with HVAC and boiler work, but don’t point me in the direction of anything porcelain. I don’t want to even look at plumbing fixtures!

JUGHNE

SeanBeans, if you don't point correctly and don't even look at a plumbing fixture then housekeeping is going to be upset with you.

nicholas bonham-carter

Very funny Jughne!—NBC