Does the Hartford Loop actually do anything today?

ethicalpaul

Hey gang-

I finally ran an experiment I’ve been wanting to do for quite awhile!

video recorded in the style of @Gordo 😄

What does a Hartford Loop do?
https://youtu.be/4Fqk_m98DqM

luketheplumber

@ethicalpaul
I have always dreamed taking an old steam boiler outside to a safe area and dry firing it to the the death and recording it on video.
TBH I think I watch too much myth busters.

Voyager

Nicely done and very illustrative. I guess the moral of the story is to ensure your LWCO is in good working order.

Danny Scully

@ChrisJ and @ethicalpaul, you guys really dislike this thing huh? LOL

Test was cool @ethicalpaul, but a few things to consider.

1) gauge glass can be deceiving, maybe installing that LWCO at the lowest side tapping would prove more than 5 minutes. 

2) the leak you simulated is massive. Suppose it’s much smaller. Again, this would likely prove more than 5 minutes. 

You both know what the Hartford Loop does...I think we all just miss each other and wanted to start a thread 🤣

Voyager

Danny Scully said:

@ChrisJ and @ethicalpaul, you guys really dislike this thing huh? LOL

Test was cool @ethicalpaul, but a few things to consider.

1) gauge glass can be deceiving, maybe installing that LWCO at the lowest side tapping would prove more than 5 minutes. 

2) the leak you simulated is massive. Suppose it’s much smaller. Again, this would likely prove more than 5 minutes. 

You both know what the Hartford Loop does...I think we all just miss each other and wanted to start a thread 🤣

All true, but even if it takes 7 days to drain all of the water out, that is still probably far less often than most homeowners check their boilers. Now, for a commercial boiler than may have someone check on it daily, the loop is probably much more important.

Jamie Hall

Neat video! And, as you say, it's the LWCO which is the real hero -- or LWCOs.

JUGHNE

Paul, are you going to provide a time lapse video of your demo of old boiler and install of new.....including skinned knuckles and all?

ethicalpaul

JUGHNE said:

Paul, are you going to provide a time lapse video of your demo of old boiler and install of new.....including skinned knuckles and all?

I’m going to make a thread of it for people to enjoy and/or laugh at 😄

ethicalpaul

Danny Scully said:

@ChrisJ and @ethicalpaul, you guys really dislike this thing huh? LOL

Test was cool @ethicalpaul, but a few things to consider.

1) gauge glass can be deceiving, maybe installing that LWCO at the lowest side tapping would prove more than 5 minutes. 

2) the leak you simulated is massive. Suppose it’s much smaller. Again, this would likely prove more than 5 minutes. 

You both know what the Hartford Loop does...I think we all just miss each other and wanted to start a thread 🤣

You’re right Danny. There was another 2 gallons in the boiler after I stopped the test, so it’s about 10 minutes.

And you’re kind of right about the size of the leak. A slow leak in the wet return will leak 24 hours/day not just while the boiler is running, so I feel the point of the video still stands, and that is: it’s the LWCO or nothing to save us from a leak

JUGHNE

Paul, we all have "baited breath"....what the hell does that mean anyway??

Precaud

It's "bated" breath, short for "abated".

dopey27177

What is the difference what piping configuration is used for a passive protection for a boiler.

Here is one condition that no one thought of, Low water cut off shuts down the boiler, no auto feeder on the domestic water fill line, no Hartford loop or Gifford loop, boiler is empty of water, Owner comes down and fills the boiler while very hot. Cold water enters the boiler and guess what. Pop goes the weasel.

At least with the redundancy There will be hot water in the boiler and no pop goes the weasel.

Jake

ChrisJ

The difference to me is understanding what actually keeps us safer and how it does it.  I do not just accept stuff because someone said so.

Someone's word isn't going to save my life.

Right now I would never run a boiler without a LWCO.  This includes hot water boilers.

@dopey27177 so you feel a hartford loop will somehow stop someone from adding water to a dry fired empty boiler?  How exactly will it do that?

The only way I see to help prevent that is education.


To me, this thread is about education.  It's about understanding why we do what we do.

ChrisJ

ratio

Questioning everything is fine, the secret is to stop when you get to the right answer.

dopey27177

The example shown is a hypothetical.
in this example the boiler is off. The water is at near steam temperatures, No water has left the boiler.
If the boiler was dry and very hot pitting water into the boiler will crack the cast iron sections.
If the Hartford loop prevented the boiler from losing its water and cold water is supplied the chilling effect of the cold water will be nulled and there would be no sections cracked

Jake

Voyager

ratio said:

Questioning everything is fine, the secret is to stop when you get to the right answer.

There seldom is a right answer.

ratio

I like to question 'question everything'.

& there is often (but not always) a Right Answer.

ethicalpaul

dopey27177 said:

What is the difference what piping configuration is used for a passive protection for a boiler. Here is one condition that no one thought of, Low water cut off shuts down the boiler, no auto feeder on the domestic water fill line, no Hartford loop or Gifford loop, boiler is empty of water, Owner comes down and fills the boiler while very hot. Cold water enters the boiler and guess what. Pop goes the weasel. At least with the redundancy There will be hot water in the boiler and no pop goes the weasel. Jake

This is an interesting scenario, Jake, but the LWCO will shut off the boiler when there is still water in the boiler. So the boiler will be steam hot but not dry-fire hot when it gets shut down.

even if the owner goes to the basement 30 seconds later and adds water, the boiler shouldn’t go pop

AMservices

@ethicalpaul
I agree the Hartford loop does not protect the boiler if the main condensate return breaks.

But for an insurance company to say they will not insure a home with steam heat, that does not have a Hartford loop, there must have been some improvements in protection.
Otherwise,  why would they ever agree to insure a home with a steam system? 
Was it a miracle that after people started piping steam boilers with looped returns, explosion rates dropped off? 

You have to think about the coal fired boilers and the problems they had. 

The biggest problem they were trying to solve was keeping the water in the boiler. 
When the pressure builds, water backs out into the return, creating severe water hammer that I'm sure broke some returns, the boiler ran dry and burned the house down, if not leveled the foundation. 

Check valves worked, for awhile. Until sediment prevented them from closing and then water hammered those returns, breaking those fittings, draining those boilers and killing more people. 

Having a Hartford loop prevents all of the water from backing out of the boiler, but more importantly, preventing server water hammer from breaking returns.

Imagine coal fired boilers before and after the Hartford loop.  
Imagine the fire was running too hot and the boiler started to build pressure. 
The water line starts to drop, but now piped with a loop, not all of the water is pushed out. Just enough for maybe a little knocking for someone to hear and go check on things. 

Now in days we have more safety controls. 
But last time I checked, **** still happens. 
I can't tell you how many LWCO's  and pressuretrols I've found broken. 
Maybe the Hartford loop has been saving them by giving 5 more minutes for the thermostat to satisfy. 

I said at the beginning that I agree the Hartford loop does not protect the boiler if the return breaks. 

But what it does do, is protects the return from breaking. 

One more thing.
Gifford loops work better then Hartford loop. Especially considering how much less water is in the boilers today. 






 

STEAM DOCTOR

The loop does not prevent pressure from backing water out of the boiler. That is accomplished by the equalizer.  

STEAM DOCTOR

Maybe things were different with the old, mammoth boilers. These boilers had lots of water in them. Maybe there was enough water below the loop,  to leave enough protective water in the boiler. Even in @ethicalpaul scenario where the steam condensate was not returning. 

AMservices

@STEAM DOCTOR
It prevents most of the water from backing out of the boiler.

STEAM DOCTOR

When returns break, they don't break catastrophically. You aren't left with an open pipe. There are typically pinholes. Most of the steam condensate will make it's way back to the boiler. The pipe itself is a lot bigger than the hole. On old boilers, that meant there was still a lot of water in the boiler. The new boilers start off with much less water and become vulnerable to dry fire much quicker. 

motoguy128

I come back to one other benefit... dirt separation. Crud from the mains returning to the boiler will settle out and not be pulled into the boiler. IF piped properly with plenty of drains, it can be safely drained out periodically. I brought my dry return down well below the bottom of the boiler water level to maximize this benefit.

If your already piping an equalizer, it’s really not a big deal to add a Wye instead of a tee and place it at the correct location for. Hartford or Gifford loop

Danny Scully

@AMservices, the EQUALIZER prevents water from backing out of the boiler, by EQUALIZING pressure. This is not accomplished with the Hartford loop. 

AMservices

@HGifford explains it better then I can.

"The equalizer does not keep water in the boiler while the loop is submerged"





If the equalizer was the only thing need to keep water in the boiler, why was the loop even invented?

Danny Scully

OMG! This conversation will never end. The loop was invented by the Hartford insurance company to allow the boiler to retain water (if even for a small amount of time) if the wet returns should leak. Period, stop. 

AMservices

All I'm trying to say is the loop seal we pipe on the back of the boiler, does more then keep water in the boiler in the event the return starts to leak.

@ethicalpaul asked "does the Hartford loop actually do anything?"

Im saying, yes it does. Because I don't want others to get the idea thats its ok to pipe steam without a loop.

ChrisJ

Danny Scully said:

OMG! This conversation will never end. The loop was invented by the Hartford insurance company to allow the boiler to retain water (if even for a small amount of time) if the wet returns should leak. Period, stop. 

Did they also install the loops for customers?  

Voyager

Danny Scully said:

OMG! This conversation will never end. The loop was invented by the Hartford insurance company to allow the boiler to retain water (if even for a small amount of time) if the wet returns should leak. Period, stop. 

In 1919. There are a lot of things invented in 1919 that we no longer need or use. I think that was the point of the experiment. This is a technology whose time has long passed yet we still invest money in it.

JUGHNE

Of course they did not.
Probably somewhere in the small print of the new insurance policies, there was an added condition.
"If owner has any claim involving the steam system, and HL was not installed, the Hartford Company has the option of not covering any damages or liability."

Or if an inspection of system did not show the HL, then policy would not be renewed.

Today, most insurance companies will look for a way out of claims if there is any possibility kicking the can down the road.
Lack of HL may give them that chance.
They have enough power to dictate their wishes.

They all have great TV ads and PR promos though.

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

Of course they did not. Probably somewhere in the small print of the new insurance policies, there was an added condition. "If owner has any claim involving the steam system, and HL was not installed, the Hartford Company has the option of not covering any damages or liability." Or if an inspection of system did not show the HL, then policy would not be renewed. Today, most insurance companies will look for a way out of claims if there is any possibility kicking the can down the road. Lack of HL may give them that chance. They have enough power to dictate their wishes. They all have great TV ads and PR promos though.

I'm suspicious that the loop situation is similar to GFCIs and arc faults.

There was no lack of snake oil back then, look at Nujol oil.  

jumper

>>another pressuretrol and LWCO<<
Why aren't redundant safeties more common?
For that matter, how about dual return?

ChrisJ

jumper said:

>>another pressuretrol and LWCO<< Why aren't redundant safeties more common? For that matter, how about dual return?

The object is to make it reasonably reliable and safe.


Reasonably.

A system of any type that is neglected and not maintained will eventually become dangerous no matter what you do or how many LWCOs you install.

Danny Scully

@ChrisJ, wouldn’t you say then that a Hartford loop is reasonable (the addition of only a few fittings) and reliable (100+ years)?

ChrisJ

Danny Scully said:

@ChrisJ, wouldn’t you say then that a Hartford loop is reasonable (the addition of only a few fittings) and reliable (100+ years)?

If you look through the thread you'll notice I never said not to use it.

My boiler has one.

ethicalpaul

Mine has one too! It will reliably keep my boiler boiling for 10 more minutes upon LWCO fail “OK” than without it. 🙏🏻

Danny Scully

I know you didn’t say not to use it @ChrisJ, just proving you like to stir the pot 🤣. 

ChrisJ

Danny Scully said:

I know you didn’t say not to use it @ChrisJ, just proving you like to stir the pot 🤣. 

I DO NOT!