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Boiler flame too big?

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Comments

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,518
    @Ying, do the flames impinge on the bottom of the boiler block? If not, they are not likely too large. If they do, get this guy back out to re-adjust and remember, the flames will behave differently with the front burner cover plate is off. At least mine does. I don't think anyone who watched that video said definitively that the abnormality of the flames wasn't the result of having the front burner cover off, moving dust around the burner area while you were moving around the open flame and while you were reaching in to film.

    If the burner is set up correctly, and you lower the flame, you are not saving any fuel costs as it will just take longer to make steam so the boiler will run longer cycles.
  • Ying
    Ying Member Posts: 58
    @Fred I believe they were when I'm observing it with the cover plate off. The fire just look a very little smaller with the cove plates back on.

    What adjustments can be made if combustion results are ok and gas pressure is where the manufacture say it should be. I've asked multiple times to get it lower a bit more but the guy just wont do it
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,518
    Ying said:

    @Fred I believe they were when I'm observing it with the cover plate off. The fire just look a very little smaller with the cove plates back on.

    What adjustments can be made if combustion results are ok and gas pressure is where the manufacture say it should be. I've asked multiple times to get it lower a bit more but the guy just wont do it

    @Ying He won't do it because he assumes liability for doing anything outside of manufacturer's specifications. Even though it may seem like a simple request, there are a 1000 and 1 variables that can affect each installation. He gets no more compensation for honoring your wish and assuming any liability than he gets for setting it to specs.
    I'm just concerned that you are maybe looking for fuel savings in the wrong places. Get the main venting done and let the boiler run for a month and see how the gas bill looks. I can tell you those vents saved me a ton on fuel costs and I have made sure every year since I added venting to make sure they work and to even upgrade them when a better mouse trap comes along, like the B&J Big Mouth.
  • Ying
    Ying Member Posts: 58
    @Fred Thank you for all of your helpful replies on all my question. Definitely helped me understand my system better.

    Not looking to save on the fuel cost, at least not this winter season. I do understand that my system can be made better, but since I'm in no rush to get a main vent in, I know I will be spending extra on the fuels.

    More worry about the boiler failing in a very wrong way with people at home.

    Maybe I'm getting too worked up over this since it was running the way it was for the past 4 years without being touch since we moved it and I only started to take interest in it this season. My past few weekends has been spent mostly in that boiler room. Re-piped the pressure relief valve to skimming the boiler multiple times, replaced the relief valve, pressuretrol, drain valve, sight glass and added another pressure gague. Now with a new gas valve, felt like almost all the loose parts has all been changed.
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,176
    edited January 2019
    I think your numbers should look like mine....I just clocked the gas meter and it fell in line.




  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,176
    Actually, your numbers are not that much different...
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,150
    EVERYTHING is $$$ now

    Even if you by your own parts and fix it yourself.

    You can't do everything yourself not with combustion analyzers at $$$$$$$. peace of mind is worth something.

    With that type of boiler if the boiler is cleaned and checked it is unlikely to suddenly get out of adjustment

    Although I would much prefer to have a analyzer of my own (love my company Testo)

    Wesstwood products does have an old style "wet kit" still available. Don't know what it cost. Still need something for CO though. Don't know if they still have the old BacharachCO with the glass tubes
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,490
    edited January 2019
    @Ying Sorry you went to all that trouble and expense but the picture of your flame was fine and believe me I have been looking at gas flames for 65 years. I have also worked on a number of your model burner and the flame was okay. By the way that Honeywell valve is a step opening valve it comes on at a lower pressure and then after 10 seconds will ramp up to full 3.5" W.C. gas pressure at the outlet of the gas valve. Why didn't someone clock the gas meter to determine what it was burning???? I just looked back at the postings and the slips for combustion test the slip on the left is way out of adjustment. The one on the right is more what it should be with your boiler.
  • Ying
    Ying Member Posts: 58
    edited January 2019
    @EBEBRATT-Ed yeah, peace of mind is worth the test. Did find a website that will let you rent a combustion analyzer for like $100. Might just do that every few years. The process looks simple and now that I know where the numbers should be.

    @Tim McElwain thanks for the confirmation. Nice to know that money spent returned some results. As for clocking the meter, remember that I did something like that a few days ago. Answer seem to be less than what the plate on the boiler states, but within that 10% difference. Will do another one later tonight, when I get home.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,792
    Unless you really know how to use the necessary test instruments, do NOT attempt to fiddle with the gas pressure or any other combustion adjustments, like the air. You paid a person good money to come and adjust your burner, and they came up with good results. It simply is not possible to adjust a burner -- either gas or oil -- by eye, and unless things are grossly out of whack, one can't even make a decent guess.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Ying
    Ying Member Posts: 58
    edited January 2019
    Just clock the meter, 11.5 seconds on the half dail to make a full turn. 3600x.5/11.5x1032 is 161,530. About 7.7% less than the boiler plate states. Not too big of a diffence, given room for error on my time.

    Observing the flame again, they are okay, mostly blue, not going to get too work up over the size.

    One big difference is the polit light, it is very orange.

    And holy ****, just got flame in the last burner tube again as Im writing this up in the bolier room.

    Burner tubes looks all clean, not sure what caused that.
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    Did anyone check the incoming pressure? It sure sounds like you have a failed gas company regulator.
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,490
    Flash back into the burner is the result many times of an incorrect adjustment to primary air on that burner. You really need to get some one who knows what they are doing to look at this boiler.
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91

    Flash back into the burner is the result many times of an incorrect adjustment to primary air on that burner. You really need to get some one who knows what they are doing to look at this boiler.

    Tim,

    Many of these things we see on here would be very simple to diagnose if we could be there and put our test tools on them.

    A spider in the cross lighter can even raise havoc, he also mentions an orange pilot. May need to be cleaned too.

    You know how delayed ignition can behave.

    He for sure needs to find a competent tech to figure this out.

  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,490
    Orange on a flame is not a problem but yellow is a problem. Orange is usually a case of movement in and around the burner when observing or servicing the system. You may also get orange in the burner flames for the same reason. It is not a problem.
    Steve Minnich
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91

    Orange on a flame is not a problem but yellow is a problem. Orange is usually a case of movement in and around the burner when observing or servicing the system. You may also get orange in the burner flames for the same reason. It is not a problem.

    Tim, for the most I agree with you as the flames are picking up dust and such but we really can't see it our self.

    Pilot type and flame shape have to be right for smooth ignition.

    I do not even know what type of pilot he has. I have experienced the burn from inside the burner from dirt, plugged cross lighters, poor pilot(plugged air hole or orifice) , pilot location, maybe some one has even put the wrong pilot in.

    Also as I posted, a regulator issue can drop pressure too low at ignition and cause the burn back.

    It is amazing what we see in the field!!!!!!!!!

    If you ever have a class in Michigan, be sure to let us know.

    We go Dan up here a few times.

    I plan to retire this spring but would still go to a good class!!

  • Ying
    Ying Member Posts: 58
    edited January 2019
    @kevinj_4 no gas regulators next to the meters in the meter room and all outside pipes are underground. So I think it is a low pressure gas line system into the house with a central regulator for the neighborhood.
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    Ying said:

    @kevinj_4 no gas regulators next to the meters in the meter room and all outside pipes are underground. So I think it is a low pressure gas line system into the house with a central regulator for the neighborhood.

    I would still think that the incoming pressure should be checked???

    We do not have true low pressure systems here, all 30# and above regulated at the meter.
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,490
    A low pressure gas line into a house will typically be about 7" W.C. to 10" W.C., at the outlet of the meter or actually measured as close to the inlet side of the gas valve. Some valves actually have inlet and outlet pressure taps. Normal outlet pressure for natural gas valves is 3.5" W.C.
  • Ying
    Ying Member Posts: 58
    Observed the boiler for a while, looks like the flash back was a result of delay ignition. Ignition didn't happen till 2-3 seconds after the gas valve opened.

    Took the polit apart and cleaned it. Polit flame looks a lot more like it was before the new valve, a lot longer and is actually blue now

    Boiler runs alot smoother and quiter now. No flash back for the past hour and Ignition at the same time as the gas valve opens. Looks like dirty polit which lead to the short/small polit flame was the culprit here.

    @kevinj_4 thanks for the advice.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 3,371
    You didn't come across that way, and I don't blame you for your concern, but the reality of it is, at least from this distance, that you took care of a big unknown and are in a much safer place now, so enjoy it :)
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • mikeg2015
    mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,184
    2% gain in efficiency is pretty good. If the regulator was at 8”, it needed to come down. If the regulator on the old valve can’t get under 4”, then it’s toast. Sometimes they just fail.

    $1000 for a $200 valve (cost) and 2 hours labor tops plus 1 hour for a combustion analysis seems steep. But some shops charge you 100% of their travel time to and from the shop to retrieve parts, which IMO is BS. (Our company doesn’t do that). One local company does that, and I’ve noticed they have a LOT of trucks parked all day at their shop, while we are busy with calls all day and have a 4 week backlog on installations, during what normally is our slower time before spring PM’s and AC installations.

    I know we’re not supposed ot discuss pricing. But while I get markets vary, there should be more transparency in the industry.
    ethicalpaul