If EPA and Energy Star goes away

ratio

ChrisJ said:

I really wish there was an easy way to set up a test to actually compare overall energy used between boilers.

For example, take 5 of those 95% boilers and put them up against 5 simple cast iron HW boilers over a 30 (or even 60?) year period and see which consumes less energy and produces less pollution from start (creation) to finish (repairs, landfill etc).

Energy and pollution aside I'd also be curious which costs the end user the least in the end as well.

I really doubt that'll happen, it's too hard! Catch every single nickel it costs over the lifetime? Does the gasoline the installer used to drive to the site count? How 'bout his cigarettes? What's the cost of the HO going down to reset whatever on the system at O-dark-thirty Sunday morning? The lists of "allowed costs" would either have to be sooo specific that it'd be comical and no one would be happy, or sooo broad & judgment-call-ish that no one would be happy.

I believe that the costs, start to finish, would be about the same, discounting failures & assuming a correct installation. This is based on the still-ongoing argument of tastes great vs less filling low-first-high-operating costs (80% CI) vs high-first-low-operating costs (95% mod con). If there was a clear winter there, we'd know it by now.

If you've ever taken an armchair philosophy class, here's something to ruminate on: I suspect the actual "cost", money aside, of this is attached to comfort; that is, the more comfortable you make it the more it's going to cost—in one form or another.

But, I could be mistaken. Who knows.

ChrisJ

ratio said:

ChrisJ said:

I really wish there was an easy way to set up a test to actually compare overall energy used between boilers.

For example, take 5 of those 95% boilers and put them up against 5 simple cast iron HW boilers over a 30 (or even 60?) year period and see which consumes less energy and produces less pollution from start (creation) to finish (repairs, landfill etc).

Energy and pollution aside I'd also be curious which costs the end user the least in the end as well.

I really doubt that'll happen, it's too hard! Catch every single nickel it costs over the lifetime? Does the gasoline the installer used to drive to the site count? How 'bout his cigarettes? What's the cost of the HO going down to reset whatever on the system at O-dark-thirty Sunday morning? The lists of "allowed costs" would either have to be sooo specific that it'd be comical and no one would be happy, or sooo broad & judgment-call-ish that no one would be happy.

I believe that the costs, start to finish, would be about the same, discounting failures & assuming a correct installation. This is based on the still-ongoing argument of tastes great vs less filling low-first-high-operating costs (80% CI) vs high-first-low-operating costs (95% mod con). If there was a clear winter there, we'd know it by now.

If you've ever taken an armchair philosophy class, here's something to ruminate on: I suspect the actual "cost", money aside, of this is attached to comfort; that is, the more comfortable you make it the more it's going to cost—in one form or another.

But, I could be mistaken. Who knows.

Comfort is understandable.
That part I get and agree with.

The Steam Whisperer

Hi Mark,

I'm with you on installing more efficient equipment, its just that those 95% efficiency numbers are generally bogus in real life. If you compare the overall energy use of a standard 95% AFUE Furnace driven new Hot Air system and an 82% AFUE Steam boiler driven steam system in good condition, the energy use is very likely going to be about the same or likely lower for the steam system due to issues of distribuation losses, increases in building air leakage for hot air, the need for higher set point temperatures with hot air to compensate for lack of radiant heating (MRT is much more imporstant than air temp for comfort). That goes back to what I said originally, instead of posting some type of efficiency number, they should do like it is done on every other DOE tested appliance, give actual comparable operating costs. The current rating system hugely favors forced air and some what favors hot water. High efficiency hot water boilers use lots more electricity than the typical older cast iron model, but none of this shows up in the efficiency numbers.

Gordy

I would like to see cradle, and grave seperate as in cradle then grave all aspects of green energy. Don't forget all parts of standard, and HE equipment is recyclable. So grave means little.

Bottom line it's fossil fuel conservation.

Jamie Hall

Cradle to grave or life cycle costing or efficiency rating or environmental impact assessment is possible, although there will always be fudge factors. However, it isn't particularly popular, as it is also expensive to do properly -- and it tends to be if not actually unfavourable to the ... searching for a polite term... green enthusiasts doctrines at best break even.

I could go on and on about this sort of thing -- I have been, privately, for decades -- but I've pretty well given up on it. Sigh...

Mark Eatherton

The Steam Whisperer said:

Hi Mark,

I'm with you on installing more efficient equipment, its just that those 95% efficiency numbers are generally bogus in real life. If you compare the overall energy use of a standard 95% AFUE Furnace driven new Hot Air system and an 82% AFUE Steam boiler driven steam system in good condition, the energy use is very likely going to be about the same or likely lower for the steam system due to issues of distribuation losses, increases in building air leakage for hot air, the need for higher set point temperatures with hot air to compensate for lack of radiant heating (MRT is much more imporstant than air temp for comfort). That goes back to what I said originally, instead of posting some type of efficiency number, they should do like it is done on every other DOE tested appliance, give actual comparable operating costs. The current rating system hugely favors forced air and some what favors hot water. High efficiency hot water boilers use lots more electricity than the typical older cast iron model, but none of this shows up in the efficiency numbers.

I hear you. Where all of this proof meets the road is in baselining. That is where you compare building A with its systems and connected loads to all other buildings (B thru Z), and the TOTAL energy used, not just thermal energy. Major cities have been doing this for a few years now and the numbers for hydronic and steam systems are starting to shine through. It includes all the variables of people, exposures, usage, meal covers etc.

I also hear what you are saying in regards to parasitic energy consumption for the higher efficiency systems, but even those energy costs have come down significantly over the years.

As I've said before, I do it (HE equipment) because it makes the most sense for all parties concerned. But I try and keep an open mind, and if someone can prove to me that they have a better, more efficient way of doing things, I am always willing to listen and learn.

ME

jumper

Atmospheric burners can be quite efficient if draft is positively controlled. And I can afford gas for pilot flames.

The Steam Whisperer

Yeah, i find on older atmospherics typically with cast iron burners, that the excess air is often well below 30%, sometimes 15 to 20 %, and they burn clean. However, almost all lanced steel burner boilers the excess air is over 50% and as high as 90%. However, heat from combustion is going every which way, so alot is lost and of course standby losses are high. Maybe if the stack dampers get moved below the draft hood, like on water heaters, then the standby losses would be lower.

Dennis

hot rod said:

And boiler efficiency standards along with fuel milage requirements are gone, or no longer enforced would you go back to cast, steel or copper boilers with standing pilot? Would mod con sales drop or end?

Free market is always best for all. However that being said; From a contractors point of view the EPA and EnergyStar have made more contractors wealthy then could have ever been imagined. Sadly for the consumer it has been on their backs, but this is the price of saving the world from humankind's propensity to release long buried carbon back into the atmosphere.

When I first entered hvac the idea anyone would change a cooling or heating system to save energy was unknown. I can actually remember adding on cooling to existing gas furnaces which contained cast iron heat exchangers. We did this by adding a separate blower connected into the existing duct system matched with some duct modifications to isolate the heater from the duct system in summer.
To add, I had several commercial customers with open type compressors (driven by external motor with fan belt and pulley). No thought was ever given to changing these out, with basic maintenance these systems would last forever.

One of my old timer customers was finally convinced changing such a system to a modern R-22 system would save hundreds of dollars in electric. We appeared as geniuses as his electric bill was slashed by 70%, and his maintenance by a great deal also. All was good until he decided to avail himself of a Federal tax credit and change to the "new" refrigerant R-410a. Things have been going downhill ever since, as the indoor and outdoor copper coils both failed within 4 years of each other, and the entire system was replaced after only 8 years of service. His second R-410a system suffered two defective TX valves, and seemingly requires a new run capacitor every year. This is good for us because this unit pays him to purchase a parts and labor maintenance contract each year.
One year after clipping a coupon, he tried another hvac company figuring maybe we had failed him. What he discovered was the hvac industry has moved towards performance pay for their technicians turning all into salesmen. The new company suggested a duct cleaning, internal duct sealing, replacing the Merv 16 filter case a hepa unit, a steam humidifier, and the entire replacement of his only 6 year old system. Needless to say he is back in our customer list.

The moral of the story; Saving the planet is not free.
Not that I think the world is only interested in making a buck, but what if the EPA and the manufacturers promoted a myth? That would be politics and I have no interest in politics.

SuperJ

How about putting a stiff tariff on any product that has a warranty less than 10-15 years? The consumerism, and waste of the current buy and replace cycle every 10 years for appliances and cars is not sustainable resource wise.
IMHO consumerism might be doing great things to the economy short term, but it is the long game economic equivalent to newspaper in a fireplace (it burns hot and bright but not for long).

hot_rod

10- 15, will those companies be around to warranty anything in 10 year? Those long warranties for inexpensive imports is worth the paper it is written on.

SuperJ

hot rod said:

10- 15, will those companies be around to warranty anything in 10 year? Those long warranties for inexpensive imports is worth the paper it is written on.

Good point...
I'm just disgusted with short lived products. I've gone thru about 4 electric kettles and 4 toasters in the last 10 years. Never had to replace a furnace, boiler, or AC unit yet. Just one DHW tank.

Gordy

Longevity in products across the board are gone. For good reason from a manufacturers stand point. What to do when you make something that lasts 30 years. The maytag repair man commercial goes through my head

Most reasons are technology is advancing at faster rates than the yesteryear days, and people's taste changes with the next flip this house episode.

To many things to want today. Some here can remember when there was about 6 choices of bar soap on the shelf. Now look at it

As far as warranties maybe we should follow the auto industry with the extended add on offerings. I know mine came in handy for a vehicle I own that 30k to present 66k miles required an astonishing 7 k in extended warranty repairs. That's not counting recalls, and TSB services on the manufacturers dime.

So I wouldn't say warranties are only as good as the paper they are printed on in some cases.

As far as energy star it should just fade away. In most cases the cradle to grave to make it energy star valid out ways it's worth.

hot_rod

As far as warranties maybe we should follow the auto industry with the extended add on offerings. I know mine came in handy for a vehicle I own that 30k to present 66k miles required an astonishing 7 k in extended warranty repairs. That's not counting recalls, and TSB services on the manufacturers dime.

So I wouldn't say warranties are only as good as the paper they are printed on in some cases.

I suspect those extended warranties make the manufacturer additional $$ also. I doubt they would continue if they were break even or losing money.

Like a 10 year warranty on a 5 year WH, just betting the odds.

The home owner extended warranties not as successful, for either provider of HO.

ChrisJ

Extended car warranties.......
Like I said when we bought our last car.

GM made the car........and they want to sell me an extended warranty on it. So they're betting it won't break in that time period, at least not enough to cost more than I pay for the warranty................. Hmmm.


Those are my thoughts on buying extended warranties on anything.

I'm with @hot rod most warranties are garbage.

Gordy

Maybe the percentages are in their favor. However I spent 1400 on the warranty, and the repair costs were over 7k cheap insurance in my book over the 3y/36k bumper to bumper. Pans out to 280 bucks a year for that repair that you just never know when, or how much. GM just decided to cover the wave plate in the transmission for 10 years 120k since they were having so many issues. That’s stepping up.

Obviously smaller appliances we are talking far less dollars, but the piece of mind is there.

Fred

Many of the warranties (for any product) are not issued or held by the manufacturer (including cars) Most manufacturers get a commission on the policies they sell and wash there hands of any other financial obligations as it relates to profit/loss so don't assume that because the manufacturer sells it, they are betting on the life of the product. They are simply making a little more profit on the deal. The insurer is the one betting the odds.
Extended warranties, like any other insurance, isn't worth the paper it's written on, until you need it. They it's as good as gold.
I for one rarely, if ever buy extended warranties unless it is given to me as an incentive on a purchase but for those who end up needing it, especially on high tech products or where reliability is somewhat questionable but the only option you have, they may be worthwhile, especially if the cost is a very small percentage of the replacement cost. For non durable goods, it doesn't make sense and for those who tend to trade every time technology changes it may not be worth it. Some policies include coverage for damage and even loss, like cell phone and even eye glasses. For the careless and especially for children, some of those policies make sense.

Gordy

Fred, exactly modern automobiles are a nightmare to work on yourself. Some of the things you don’t find out until you have ownership, and go to do the repair. To change spark plugs I have to pull the intake manifold. That procedure is a four hundred dollar maintenance item at the garage to change plugs......

The serpentine belt requires removing the front tire, and inner fender well. To change the head lamp bulb requires removing the inner fender well. These are simple things, but do most people look at that when purchasing the vehicle.

Fred

@Gordy, to your point, my brother-in-law bought a new Cadillac CTS three years ago. To replace one of the front lamps required that the front bumper be removed! The engineering is "engineered" to promote service revenue, not reliability.

Gordy

I’m inclined to think the engineers just think about how to fit it all together, and not serviceability anymore. By the way it’s only one of six spark plugs that requires the intake manifold to be pulled in my case, the rest can be removed with out taking it off. That’s a flub in my book.

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

Extended car warranties.......
Like I said when we bought our last car.

GM made the car........and they want to sell me an extended warranty on it. So they're betting it won't break in that time period, at least not enough to cost more than I pay for the warranty................. Hmmm.


Those are my thoughts on buying extended warranties on anything.

I'm with @hot rod most warranties are garbage.

And the salesman gets a spiff for selling extended warranty.

No doubt they can work and save $$ for some, but it's spread amount the many that never use them.

Why not just warranty the car for 7 years by the manufactures without adding another profit center or two?

Kinda like attorneys, most hate them until they get in trouble, or can't payoff credit card debt.

Fred

Gordy said:

I’m inclined to think the engineers just think about how to fit it all together, and not serviceability anymore. By the way it’s only one of six spark plugs that requires the intake manifold to be pulled in my case, the rest can be removed with out taking it off. That’s a flub in my book.

It really doesn't matter, Gordy. At the point you have to pull the intake manifold, it might as well be for all six plugs.

BobC

In the early 80's a neighbors daughter bought a new Ford Escort. I helped her dad when it was time to change the oil, we found you had to remove the left front tire to change the filter. A PITA but a lot easier than removing the inner fender.

Bob

D107

35 yr old maytag washing machine, going strong. Nowadays there's no appliance you can buy without being offered an extra 3-5 year complete warranty for 10-20% extra cost. Just makes me think what a piece of crap they must be selling if they can't guarantee it for such a short time without paying extra.

Many regulations are necessary, but some come with onerous strings. In NY, if a customer wants the ConEd rebate for a new boiler, HWH, etc. he must choose from their approved contractor list. Apparently not so in NJ. I know one HVAC contractor who blew his top when heard that--though admittedly the NY approval process is fairly simple.

Gordy

I really don’t even think the old reliables are so reliable anymore “Maytag” for instance. It’s a new racquet. My old house still had the original crane faucet in one shower. Simple change some washers done. 60 years. Simple to fix. I don’t think you’ll get that with top of the line extra dollar faucets today. Get use to it.
Come to think of it the middle of the road older stuff outlasted even the top of the line new stuff today. So long as consumers keep buying they’ll keep making. Brands hardly make a difference since it’ll be the same rehtoric if a consumer spins off in disgust, and buys a different brand name.

ChrisJ

> @Gordy said:
> I really don’t even think the old reliables are so reliable anymore “Maytag” for instance. It’s a new racquet. My old house still had the original crane faucet in one shower. Simple change some washers done. 60 years. Simple to fix. I don’t think you’ll get that with top of the line extra dollar faucets today. Get use to it.
> Come to think of it the middle of the road older stuff outlasted even the top of the line new stuff today. So long as consumers keep buying they’ll keep making. Brands hardly make a difference since it’ll be the same rehtoric if a consumer spins off in disgust, and buys a different brand name.

If you're looking for a reliable refrigerator I can give some recommendations

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

> @Gordy said:

> I really don’t even think the old reliables are so reliable anymore “Maytag” for instance. It’s a new racquet. My old house still had the original crane faucet in one shower. Simple change some washers done. 60 years. Simple to fix. I don’t think you’ll get that with top of the line extra dollar faucets today. Get use to it.

> Come to think of it the middle of the road older stuff outlasted even the top of the line new stuff today. So long as consumers keep buying they’ll keep making. Brands hardly make a difference since it’ll be the same rehtoric if a consumer spins off in disgust, and buys a different brand name.



If you're looking for a reliable refrigerator I can give some recommendations

If you are referring to GE as to who made the monitor top don’t get me started as to their modern day garbage......

I had a profile dishwasher that had a complete melt down on the inside because the heating element stuck on. They replaced it, and it started a recall after two whole years.thank god GE made good on it since it was out of warranty. When you say it almost burnt my house down it gets action. The same profile line fridge purchased same time as dishwasher in a kitchen remodel lost the board for the dispenser, and ice maker after 5 years 400 bucks . The double oven same line the convection element burned out in 6 years. The cook top was trouble free big bonus there......

I had an Lg washer dryer. The dryer ate heating elements like candy. 3 in 5 years. The tub gasket on the front load washer tore in 3 years. Luckily it was in a spot where water wouldn’t leak out. Left it alone.

It’s all garbage by old standards.

Gordy

As you can see I don’t have much faith in about anything the average consumer buys, and hopes to last a meaningful time frame for dollars invested.

I honestly don’t believe you hit that mark until large quantities of human lives are a part of the reliability, and longevity requirement. Say jet engines and airframes...........

brandonf

I would be happy with an atmospheric boiler and a standing pilot. It's common sense in any place where your electrical can go out during a storm. Screw the wasted fuel on the pilot. It's still cheaper than frozen pipes and frozen people.

GBart

Pruitt is an industry dirt bag and has no business running a govt agency let alone one called the ENVIRONMENT PROTECTION AGENCY. Think about it's name.

How many are too young or lack the memory of the green and purple rivers in the US that were devoid of any life? It only took a few years of the clean water act to see the fish and other life return. How soon we forget. There was this song, one of my favorites, We Won't Get Fooled Again

apparently we will

GBart

From article below-- "Did you know that the HVAC industry is the top employer in the energy efficiency sector? Moreover, 70% of these HVAC workers are employed by local businesses with 10 or less employees meaning that across the USA, there are thousands of local HVAC companies creating jobs to strengthen their local economies and a more environmentally friendly future. And as the industry grows, job creation in the industry is only set to increase.

The Importance of Energy Efficient HVAC Systems

Making HVAC systems energy efficient is a huge priority. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, replacing aging HVAC systems with an Energy Star-certified model could cut household cooling costs by 30%."

Now we know that some heating and cooling units are cutting costs by 40-50% but we advertise 30%.

Now guess what happens when people spend less on electricity and fuel? They spend that money and that is called Middle Class Discretionary Spending and that is what drives the economy, more people spending.

http://www.cleanalert.com/blog/how-energy-efficient-hvac-systems-are-creating-more-jobs

GBart

Here's another article regarding energy efficiency, regulations and job growth, and guess why they best HVAC equipment is foreign, we are way behind the rest of the world.

http://www.contractingbusiness.com/residential-hvac/how-energy-efficiency-creates-jobs

Gordy

The problem is the word. “Energy efficiency Movement” movements go a certain distance, and stop....a better word would be revolution.

So long as the gluttonous Americans have cheap energy the energy efficiency industry status will always be a movement.

When we start to pay utility, and fossil fuel rates like people do around the world, unless you happen to live in the oil producing country . The movement becomes a revolution.

I believe we are in grid lock because the owners of our precious resources would rather sell large quantities at cheaper prices than small quantities at higher prices. That would induce a revolution that they are not in the market share of............maybe BP solar......

jumper

> @Gordy said:
>> the original crane faucet in one shower. Simple change some washers done. 60 years. Simple to fix. I don’t think you’ll get that with top of the line extra dollar faucets today.<<

•Quarter turn are supposed to last lifetime. ha ha
•Change washer each leap year and old fashioned taps last forever.

>>I would be happy with an atmospheric boiler and a standing pilot. It's common sense in any place where your electrical can go out during a storm. Screw the wasted fuel on the pilot. It's still cheaper than frozen pipes and frozen people.<<

•ditto. Gravity HHW or pump less steam. NG hardly ever goes off.

GBart

Gordy said:

The problem is the word. “Energy efficiency Movement” movements go a certain distance, and stop....a better word would be revolution.

So long as the gluttonous Americans have cheap energy the energy efficiency industry status will always be a movement.

When we start to pay utility, and fossil fuel rates like people do around the world, unless you happen to live in the oil producing country . The movement becomes a revolution.

I believe we are in grid lock because the owners of our precious resources would rather sell large quantities at cheaper prices than small quantities at higher prices. That would induce a revolution that they are not in the market share of............maybe BP solar......

well you have to remember that due to a law called CFMA of 2000 oil companies ( you know who) were allowed to control commodities and raise oil prices to $5gal, this was done purposely to make fracking profitable, which also pollutes our drinking waters ( which they made exempt from EPA rules) and causes many earthquakes wrecking peoples homes, all for what??? for the nation??? no for themselves, it's called manipulation, after some corrections were made the price of oil dropped and fracking became unprofitable, still we have reduced our oil consumption which keeps prices under control, that's a free market system, it's not a free market system when someone pays off a politician to make something legal that shouldn't be for profit especially when it hurts the nation and businesses, all of these supposed pro business people hurt most other businesses with their policies because when you and I pay $5 at the pump we spend less everywhere else and thanks to that gift everything else spiked from electricity to food and those never came down in case you didn't notice, these people are not our friends

it's just the Chinese demand for fuel currently making us sell off our future oil for profit

Gordy

Yup it’s true they (big oil) hurts everything when the price goes up. Everything we buy gets moved by truck,plane,train etc. all burning the fossil fuel.

I use to laugh at the “fuel surcharges “ tacked on to a bill months, and years after fuel had risen to high levels. Just raise the bill save the ink..........

The thing is consumers will do with out a lot of things to keep the utilities going, and the vehicle rolling. At 4 bucks a gallon did anyone miss a beat?

hot_rod

Gordy said:

Yup it’s true they (big oil) hurts everything when the price goes up. Everything we buy gets moved by truck,plane,train etc. all burning the fossil fuel.

I use to laugh at the “fuel surcharges “ tacked on to a bill months, and years after fuel had risen to high levels. Just raise the bill save the ink..........

The thing is consumers will do with out a lot of things to keep the utilities going, and the vehicle rolling. At 4 bucks a gallon did anyone miss a beat?

I suspect the fuel surcharges did end up getting rolled into the shipping cost, even when prices dropped again.

$4 and up per gallon does make electric and hybrid sales jump.

Gordy

I usually gauge by what I see on the road, and in neighborhoods as far as vehicles, or shall I say what I don’t see

Same goes for homes, and utilities. Don’t see a lot of panels on roofs, windmills, and a lot of the new home construction still tote the 80% efficiency stuff.

Don’t see the market sore for envelope upgrades on older homes much above adding attic insulation, or if the windows go south new ones which usually end up being mediocre thermopanes ya know window world stuff.

Usually new construction meets mediocre codes no more than that.

I don’t mean to be a downer, or do I agree with what goes on, but we on Internet forums live in some what of a bubble as to what goes on with the mass population for energy star paraphinelia.

hot_rod

It's a triad in my opinion.

High fuel cost, rebates or incentives, and awareness driven from the top that gets folks buying green or more efficient products.

If any one leg collapses buyers lose interest.

We see it in solar sales, my brother in law sells replacement windows and see the shift also.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Well many here still promote 80% stuff as well.