If EPA and Energy Star goes away

hot_rod

And boiler efficiency standards along with fuel milage requirements are gone, or no longer enforced would you go back to cast, steel or copper boilers with standing pilot? Would mod con sales drop or end?

Gordy

Doesn't that all still revolve around energy prices? Whether those entities disappear, or not most people want cheaper operating costs with what ever energy consuming device they have.

ROI usually revolves around energy costs. All though I think energy star rebate programs,and government incentives help people make that choice that are on the fence.

ratio

Most people don't seem to want cheaper operating costs. Up front costs seem to drive the vast majority of new work and more of the rework than one would like to see.

I dislike the government "incentive" programs, as I really Really REALLY dislike being strong-armed into something, especially by a bureaucrat who knows soooo much more than me. I'm quite able to make an informed decision that best fits my situation, thank you very much.

I have yet to see any indication that the move from "less efficient" to "more efficient" is a win except in very specific, restrained conditions, i.e. only comparing fuel costs. How about maintenance interval and, related, emergency demand service? How about IAQ, with all it's secondary costs? How about comfort? Going by the anecdotal evidence, it's neck and neck. More costs & headaches come with reduced fuel usage. Is it a good trade? I'm not sure a government dept. is the best decision maker for that question.

Tinman

First question - I still offer CI boilers so I wouldn't necessarily being going back but I wouldn't stop selling mod cons because of it. They are a big part of what we do. But I don't see that happening. There are too many checks and balances in our government to allow it to happen.

Second question - Yes, mod con sales would drop.

If R12 and R22 were legalized again and recovery was no longer necessary...?

Tinman

@ratio - To my last question, do you feel strong armed by being forced to recover refrigerants? Is that a decision that should be left up to the individual w/o government intervention?

GW

I think the rebates are local utility driven aren't they?

You think the AFUE will go away?? That would be a shocker.

It's impossible to keep everyone happy when we live in a 1st world society. When things change, someone cheers and someone moans.

Tinman

Maybe the FDA is next on the hit list??? Ever read The Jungle?

Sal Santamaura

If Pruitt succeeds at his goal of turning the EPA into a history book footnote, this country's "Walmart" mentality will trash mod con sales big league. The boilers then sold instead will be made from just as much American cast iron as the Keystone XL pipeline will be made from American steel.

Also, expect a resurgence in gravity systems. Along with those standing pilots, it'll be nirvana when the so-called smart grid suffers more frequent power outages. Heat without end.

psb75

"Heat without end"....until the fuel runs out.

Sal Santamaura

psb75 said:

"Heat without end"....until the fuel runs out.

Nah, it'll never run out. Drill, baby, drill. Frack, baby, frack. Stop worrying about the distant future, i.e. more than a profitable decade or two ahead. And don't even think about negative consequences for the environment. With all that petroleum cash, those running the show will be able to easily afford cooling / oxygen-delivering suits that'll isolate them from the hot, toxic mess they're creating.

ratio

Stephen Minnich said:

@ratio - To my last question, do you feel strong armed by being forced to recover refrigerants? Is that a decision that should be left up to the individual w/o government intervention?

Government mandated issues aren't going to go away. What I don't like are the ones that target (actually, even if not intentionally) those least able to afford them. I'm in the middle of replacing my water heater. I went with a standard 50 gal gas unit for several reasons. One of which is that a condensing model is ±5 times the cost of the less efficient one. Truth is, I'd probably get payback within the lifetime of it—but I have to amortize this purchase. I simply can't afford the better one. Now, what are the odds, should condensing water heaters be mandated (one way or another), of the price immediately falling to within range of the current ones? It's a near certainty that they will fall, but it's doubtful that the price'll crater immediately, nor is it likely that it'll do more than approach the current prices. So, unless you happen to have a little nest egg, you're hurting if you have to replace your water heater.

Dunno what the right answer is. but is it impossible that regulation is not the best solution?

GW

Stephen Minnich said:

Maybe the FDA is next on the hit list??? Ever read The Jungle?

OK NOW you're really stepping in it hahaha the feds know us stupid Americans will eat ANYTHING, and that of course keeps the medical field fat and happy , no pun intended.

Tinman

@ratio - I understand your point. When I started most everything was standing pilot, you could get residential furnaces with belt drive blowers, and buy a furnace for a song. I'm just bothered to no end that the head of the EPA is actually against protecting the environment and was given this appointment with that fact being public knowledge. 2 steps up and 3 steps back.

Gordy

Who gets targeted by the federal government, and utility program incentives to upgrade to more efficient appliances, and envelopes on a residential level? No one gets strong armed into those decisions. Other than envelope energy codes for new construction.

If the government doesnt step in who will?

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

Who gets targeted by the federal government, and utility program incentives to upgrade to more efficient appliances, and envelopes on a residential level? No one gets strong armed into those decisions. Other than envelope energy codes for new construction.

If the government doesnt step in who will?

Everyone does.
Look at the absolutely garbage appliances we have now. High priced short lived piles of junk.

A dishwasher used to last 20+ years, now constant failures.
Washer and drier used to go decades, now, same as dishwashers.

They save water and electric, but not materials or landfills.

What they do do very well is make profits for manufacturers. Too expensive to repair and most failures are out of warranty.

Air conditioners used to go 20-30 years, now constant evaporator failures. Super thin materials with extremely high pressures.


Let me be perfectly clear.
I do believe we are having a big impact on global warming. I do believe we need to be as conservative with energy as possible.

I do not believe we are necessarily doing that with HE appliances.

Gordy

Chris, do you really believe product longevity is energy star related? Or is it the fact that most anything you buy now days doesn't last like the old stuff use to. Energy star, or not.

Gordy

Energy star was a voluntary label as early as 1992. There was the garbage you speak of around before that..........

Gordy

No entity makes me buy the most fuel efficient car, or a high efficiency mod/con. All though those products have evolved to become more efficient.

Conservation has been around long before EPA, and energy star was conceived. Completely voluntary, and thought provoking ways to harness, conserve energy, and not pollute the planet.

Sadly we live in a throw away society. Yes the cradle to grave of these throw away products can create another mess in our land fills. However a good portion is recyclable. Heck most of what you speak of if set out at the curb the local scrapers will pick it up before I get home from work.

So the question becomes if someone does not make people conserve energy, and not pollute. Then its back to the individuals good faith in doing so. We have seen how that works in past history..............

ratio

Unfortunately, that is something that can't be legislated. It can only work through what you're calling good faith. Without that, there will be what others called the "race to the bottom", there'll be people gaming the system, there'll be the crooks. The only way to minimize that (there's always going to be some of that) is to act better, not to have tighter laws.

There is a place for that kind of legislation, but once that's seen as the right way of doing it, if there are never any alternatives to passing more laws, we're screwed.

ChrisJ

So @Gordy

What you're telling me is the reason steam boilers are rotting out faster isn't because of high energy standards, which all of the manufacturer's keep blaming on the reasons their blocks are so thin?

I'm also told manufactures keep blaming high efficiency for their evaporators failing.


Cast iron is cheap, it doesn't cost much more to make a much thicker block when most of the money goes into labor. I'm not buying the cost is the reason for boilers rotting out or evaporators leaking.

As far as kitchen appliances, the cost of dishwashers etc certainly has not come down. Why is it a $800-1200 dishwasher won't last?

Paul48

That's something I never gave a lot of thought to....but now that you mention it, longevity has gone down with the rise in efficiency. I can't think of a case where that's not true. There's exceptions, but, on average, look how long a $40000 truck lasts.

NY_Rob

ChrisJ said:

...As far as kitchen appliances, the cost of dishwashers etc certainly has not come down. Why is it a $800-1200 dishwasher won't last?

Because it uses the same Chinese made core parts as the $400 "no frills" dishwasher.
The $800-1200 models have the fancy expensive stainless skins, OLED/touchscreen displays, control boards, WiFi connectivity, etc.. where the $400 model have painted skins, simple mechanical push-buttons and/or rotary timers.
Both share the same Chinese pump, heating element, solenoids, etc.. that seem to wear out quickly.

Tinman

My mom and dad are in their 80's, never had a dishwasher. Zero failures. Zero repairs. Old school.

ChrisJ

Gordy

Stephen Minnich said:

My mom and dad are in their 80's, never had a dishwasher. Zero failures. Zero repairs. Old school.

Quality time

Fred

I read an article a few weeks ago about Speed Queen washers/dryers. They had numerous examples of washers that were 30/35 years old and still going strong. They are the only washer/dryer manufactured today using the same parts as they did 50 to 60 years ago. No plastic gears, all mechanical dials/switches, still made here in the USA.
I don't necessarily believe greater efficiency shortens the life of an appliance. I have always believed engineered failure is the major reason for shortened life. Manufacturers want repeat buyers and can't wait as long as we'd like so they all design a failure around a given threshold. I mean just ask an engineer. Most can tell you the life and failure rate of just about every component in an appliance. By design, my friends, by design.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

I read an article a few weeks ago about Speed Queen washers/dryers. They had numerous examples of washers that were 30/35 years old and still going strong. They are the only washer/dryer manufactured today using the same parts as they did 50 to 60 years ago. No plastic gears, all mechanical dials/switches, still made here in the USA.
I don't necessarily believe greater efficiency shortens the life of an appliance. I have always believed engineered failure is the major reason for shortened life. Manufacturers want repeat buyers and can't wait as long as we'd like so they all design a failure around a given threshold. I mean just ask an engineer. Most can tell you the life and failure rate of just about every component in an appliance. By design, my friends, by design.

I know quite a few engineers, and would have to respectfully disagree with this statement.

Paul48

Gordy said:

Stephen Minnich said:

My mom and dad are in their 80's, never had a dishwasher. Zero failures. Zero repairs. Old school.

Quality time

One might say, they've had the same dish washer, as long as they've been married.

Fred

@ChrisJ said: know quite a few engineers, and would have to respectfully disagree with this statement.

I worked for 41 years with a ton of engineering departments where we made and sold commercial Retail systems and Data warehousing systems and every one of them could pull an actuary report on a given component and tell you, within a few months when a component would likely fail. It's called actuarial science. I'm sure it's the same in the appliance industry. I know the manufacturers of gas valves can tell you, reasonably accurately how many cycles to expect out of a given valve before failure.

Tinman

@ChrisJ - I tend to agree with Fred. It's not the engineer deciding to use inferior parts. They're being told to use inferior parts.

ChrisJ

I don't know.
The 1935 monitor top had a 0.02% failure rate per year as per General Electric. But this wasn't known when they started producing them, it was done by collecting data over a period of time. At least, this is my understanding.

It gave a general idea of how reliable it was, but not exactly how long each part would last. Similar to MTBF.

Dollr

We bought a Speed Queen Washer a few years back and that thing is like a tank. No bells and whistles, spins the heck out of the clothes so that they are almost dry at the end of the wash cycle. It's so solid that even an unbalanced load will not walk the machine across the floor. They even give you a way to manually override the water fill limit. Great machine.

Fred

There was a different motivation back then. They built products trying to make them last a life time. When a component failed, they wanted to know why and what could be done to prevent that failure. Today, the mind set is to build a product that has a reasonable life (as defined by the manufacturers. No better/no worse than the competition) in order to keep a revenue stream in place with replacement/repeat sales.

ChrisJ

Jeez,
I don't think I've seen a washer walk across the floor in over 30 years. Cheap or not.

@Fred Maybe you're right, I just don't see them putting that much effort into it. I could be wrong.

Paul48

@Fred

People can't see the forest through the trees. A Speed Queen washer is twice the cost of a cheap washer, but will last 4x as long, easily. I agree that a lot of it, is planned obsolescence. I think when you start adding complexity, your planning can get away from you. The high efficiency stuff tends to be more complex.

BobC

@Stephen Minnich Sometimes simple things are best.

I've never owned a dishwasher either, the old cat did the pre-wash and I did the final. I did find the cats only lasted 18 or 19 years. i know some use dogs instead of cats but they don't last as long.

Similar thing with my clothesline but I don't usually get more than 4-5 years out of those.

Bob

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

I don't know.
The 1935 monitor top had a 0.02% failure rate per year as per General Electric. But this wasn't known when they started producing them, it was done by collecting data over a period of time. At least, this is my understanding.

It gave a general idea of how reliable it was, but not exactly how long each part would last. Similar to MTBF.

Back in the day things were over designed because they didn't know. Now with historical performance data,computer aided design etc. there is much more information used in designing everything. This saves on material, and labor costs, and as Fred pointed out in his last post keeps revenue stream.

Make it just good enough to keep them coming back to their brand name, and buy their next leap forward in product innovation.


To place blame on HE for shorter product life spans is an excuse if it's used by certain manufacturers. If it all went away I guarantee things won't start lasting 10-20, or 30 years again. If they did think of the unemployment. There is a reason things don't last, and it's not because they are HE.

Gordy

What about automobiles? The auto industry has seemed to handle complexity, and efficiency quite well.

What about the commercial aircraft industry?

BobC

I'm sure the thinning out of materials did not make things more robust just as the penny pinching by the accountants did not enhance reliability.

Everything you touch is built by the lowest bidder and you don't get to be the lowest bidder by using a better part - think about that then next time you board an airplane.

Bob

Gordy

So @Hotrod, what is it you seek? Is it the willingness of the installer, and owner to promote HE equipment regardless of what whom says you should be doing?

Gordy

BobC said:

I'm sure the thinning out of materials did not make things more robust just as the penny pinching by the accountants did not enhance reliability.

Everything you touch is built by the lowest bidder and you don't get to be the lowest bidder by using a better part - think about that then next time you board an airplane.

Bob

Being the lowest bidder does not get you out of having to meet design standards. However it can make the inspectors pull their hair out............

Thinning out of materials. Bob I'm sure you remember the stiff as a board Levi's. How many pair do you suppose they make at today's weight before they get another 45 dollar pair compared to the old weight? How many more pairs do they sell because the new ones wear out faster?

Some people over look that because either they weren't around when the heavier versions existed, or they hated breaking them in, and welcomed the lighter weight version.