Labor Shortage?

BobC

I have no problem with someone who is truly disabled getting some help but that help has to be contingent with periodic checkups to see how things are progressing.

In '69 my head got clipped by a Chinook's main rotor blade that failed, I was medivaced down to Camp Carol where they patched me up with stitches and an impressive looking bandage. i was out in the vil celebrating by good luck that night. The CO said they should have made me paid for the blade I broke.

That clip on the head left me with some dizzy spells and some vision problems but I made do. I was never able to drive after that but I worked and did ok; I retired at 62 and still do most of the upkeep n the house. People always told my I should have a disability but I've seen men with real disabilities from war injuries and I could not live with myself if I took what those mean earned.

My back hurts pretty much all the time, the knees are suspect and I still have the dizzy spells and bad vision in one eye - but I've always thought myself lucky, that injury could have been a LOT worse.

Bob

GreenGene

Hatterasguy said:

GreenGene said:

Does the economy do better when the actors, writers and directors and all get good pay from the film and then the resales or would it be better for the studio to get it all and they get $14hr??

Do you really not understand how capitalism works? Who is the studio beholden to?

Option 1: Its employees
Option 2: Its stockholders.


If you want a socialistic society go elect Bernie and those legislators who will support that type of government and have at it.

Your posts show a fundamental misunderstanding of capitalism. Virtually everything the government does to support the little people, including the minimum wage, and including health benefits, undermines capitalism in favor of socialism.

If you want that, have at it. But really, the whining is getting old.

it's apparent you do not understand our history at all

the studio is beholden to its employees who the paying public wants to see even if it is an arse in a movie with a chimpanzee

what whining? you listen to hannity and rush too much??

those are facts, that IS what happened, that IS what Ronald Reagan DID when it benefitted him

dig it?

GreenGene

I'll tell you what Hatterasguy, you come to work for me, I'll pay you $2hr, you work 22 hours a day, I'll be on my yacht or my island, I'll pay you with a voucher you can use at my store

sound good?

GreenGene

and you understand nothing about our govt, our govt spends very little on the people, the majority of our taxes goes to large corporations so they can expand GLOBALLY, and now they want our S/S and you would probably give it to them while 1/2 of your family uses it

GreenGene

1. Tax Breaks for obscene CEO bonuses ($7 billion/year)

2. Tax cuts for luxury corporate jets ($300 million/year)

3. Big oil subsidies ($37.5 billion/year)

4. Pharmaceutical subsidies ($270 billion/year)

and 6 more

The combined cost of these 10 corporate welfare programs is $1.539 trillion per year. The three main programs needy families depend upon — Temporary Assistance for Needy Families ($17.3 billion), food stamps ($74 billion), and the Earned Income Tax Credit ($67.2 billion) — cost just $158.5 billion in total. This means we spend ten times as much on corporate welfare and handouts to the top 1 percent than we do on welfare for working families struggling to make ends meet.

GreenGene

To top that off most of the large corporations not only paid NO TAXES they get a refund because they write the tax laws to fluff up their write offs.

That means another few trillion is not coming in.

You & I have to make that up.

Gordy

As for disability there are those that are good at manipulating the system. Plenty of that. Also on comp is it fair that a person collects on an injury that was facilitated from work through out their career? The last company they work for holds the trick bag. Example carpel tunnel, knee injuries etc.

As for unions as @GreenGene pointed out unions got the nonunion people the 40 hr. Work week, sick days, OT, holiday pay, health insurance, comp, a living wage, OSHA. The list goes on. So don't go there on unions. People take for granted the pain, and suffering their union brothers, and sisters went through to get where they are at today. The non Union should respect those same people.

I would strongly suggest watching the series "The men who made America.

Paul48

What I have learned about capitalism, is that under any of its forms, there is no rules as to how the acquired capital could be shared.
Hat.....I'm afraid you left out Option #3...The Board of Directors. The companies seem to be beholden to these employees, but not the hourly employees making the products that earn the profits. The president of the company makes $10 Mil last year, but times are tough and they have to cut the hourly employees pay and benefits by $5 Mil.

Paul48

@Gordy

Unfortunately, the gains that unions made in this country are systematically being taken away. The last I read in union newsletters, they were going down to Mexico, to try to organize the workers there. There was articles congratulating the newest members of the union, and they would be negotiating the plant closing (truth).

Gordy

True with factory work. To easy to close shop, and move to more labor friendly (corporate wise) regions.

Paul48

Hat........Have you noticed, that you defend everyone's right to nice share of a company's profits, except those actually earning the profits for the company. The folks getting dirty, and injured. American industry is what it is, sadly. At least when there's a stock market crash, poor folks won't be jumping off buildings. I just don't share your white collar perspective.

Gordy

I look at it like this. If I invent a widget that people like to buy, and it makes me a billionaire. Am I obligated to pay more than the going rate for the labor to make it? For that matter anything really?

If the going labor rate is enough to keep work force working for me, and not seek employment else where is that a fair wage. If they complain it is not enough yet stay working for me is that my fault?

If I drive up to the gas pump, and it's 2.53 a gallon. Should I feel obligated to pay 4.53 a gallon because I can? Even though I probably won't miss the money?

If I'm only obligate to pay X tax dollars should I pay more?

In my opinion capitalism turns evil when it manipulates politics with lobbying money. But then is it my fault that the political system is geared to take my money for favors, or best interest to my well being?

Paul48

The company I work for is always doing market studies , of other companies local to us, to determine what could be given to their employees. This is a joke. Because, there are few companies local to us. Those few companies have done the same things to their employees(union shops included). The competitive market, now includes most of the Third World nations. We all know why that has happened. There has been a deliberate re-distribution of wealth here. Most of the statements you guys are making, are the way it use to be here, not the way it is now. Ask anyone.....If you quit your job today...Could you have a better job tomorrow? That's the way it use to be. We lived just fine, in this Capitalist society, and companies made plenty of money paying employees at or near union scale. The only behavior, defined by Capitalism, is the acquisition of capital.

jonny88

As an immigrant I still see it as the land of opportunity.Plenty of successful guys on this forum also in the same boat.It is what you make of it .Every country has their problems but for me this is home

ChrisJ

jonny88 said:

As an immigrant I still see it as the land of opportunity.Plenty of successful guys on this forum also in the same boat.It is what you make of it .Every country has their problems but for me this is home

What reason did you immigrate to the United States rather than somewhere else? For example, Denmark, Germany, England etc?

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

jonny88 said:

As an immigrant I still see it as the land of opportunity.Plenty of successful guys on this forum also in the same boat.It is what you make of it .Every country has their problems but for me this is home

What reason did you immigrate to the United States rather than somewhere else? For example, Denmark, Germany, England etc?

They wouldn't let him in.....................

That's ok, they won't let you in either.

Now let the man speak.

SWEI

Look at the percentage of low-wage workers who are on Medicaid, SNAP, etc. That is in effect more corporate welfare, though we typically account for it as social welfare.

Oh, and check out some of the numbers in that link I posted above. More massive cost shifting.

KC_Jones

Not that one individual is representative of the population, but my sister is on disability and as a single person lives quite well. She actually has a nicer house than I and a fair amount of disposable income. She however is collecting disability pension from being a teacher for 14 years and SS benefits. Her situation isn't typical, but we can't make blanket statements about how "poorly" a person on disability lives. BTW as far as I am concerned she isn't disabled at all, but she was able to convince the check writers she is. I am sure she isn't the only one like this.

SWEI

Around here the model is to get on disability and then work for cash on the side. It's not uncommon in the construction trades -- probably 40% of the applicants we see "have to work for cash because I need to keep my (unemployment, disability, not pay child support, etc.) We tell them to take a hike, but many end up working for other contractors, sometimes even on that same jobs we are working. Two of them were still collecting unemployment from us.

KC_Jones

She collects both. First she retired under disability from the school system. She then applied for benefits from Social Security due to disability. Took her 2 years and several reapplication, but they eventually approved her. Not only did she start collecting, but they also pay back to when the first application was made. So she got a large check for 2 years worth of benefits. That's how she bought her house.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

Around here the model is to get on disability and then work for cash on the side. It's not uncommon in the construction trades -- probably 40% of the applicants we see "need to work for cash because I need to keep my (unemployment, disability, not pay child support, etc.)

Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

KC_Jones

I doubt it, think of all the trouble this person would get in when the government finds out they have been working all this time? These people wouldn't squeal on themselves like that. They could end up a huge loser in that situation. I don't disagree with you just pointing out another perspective. "Don't do that I might lose my disability". Some people work really hard to be lazy.

SWEI

They really don't have a clue what kind of liability they're taking on, but then many of these are the same people who don't bother charging Gross Receipts Tax (New Mexico's version of a sales tax, but it applies to labor as well as materials.)

At one point on the hotel job, we were paying child support to three different states. A couple of guys had kids in more than one state, and the states couldn't even agree on who got what. Dirty little secret about child support garnishment: as an employer you are required to comply with the laws in 49 states where you don't even do business. Each one has different rules, different payment deadlines, and of course more paperwork. It's a big burden for small business, and one that IMO the Feds should really take over. The employer should make one payment to one agency and not have to worry about the distribution.

Robert O'Brien

Hatterasguy said:

SWEI said:

Oh, and check out some of the numbers in that link I posted above. More massive cost shifting.

But, in most cases, going on disability means you will not work, you will not get a raise, you will not get whatever meaning people get from work. Going on disability means, assuming you rely only on those disability payments, you will be poor for the rest of your life. That's the deal. And it's a deal 14 million Americans have signed up for.


An interesting conundrum. They make a bargain with the devil and believe that they will be better off for it.

Some are truly disabled and cannot work. Others make the choice to be permanently poor (unless they they are similar to the LIRR workers, of course).

They were always psychologically poor....

GreenGene

Here's the real problem gents, you keep saying Capitalism.

We do not have Capitalism, in the 1800's some of it was based on that, which is you make a product or service and so do others and let the best one get the most sales and on with competition.

That is not what we have.

What we have is a Corporate Monarchy or Oligarchy.

That is when large corporations own your politicians and write the laws so that they make things that were illegal, legal so they cannot be prosecuted and they write or push laws that favor them and not the people.

We are also moving into dangerous territory with a return of Monopolies which also hurts the people every time.

It's amazing how certain news paints the elite as some sort of Gods who are so all knowing and every 23 seconds WHAM there's a new Liberal Threat, quick duck n cover, DefCon 7.

BS

The only threat liberals pose is to them.

Liberals are why you have an 8 hour work day, vacation, overtime, Holiday, sick time, clean air and water, GI Bill, the EPA and more, although jokingly some sites will credit Nixon with the EPA, he had nothing to do with it, it was push through by Liberals and he seized it thinking the protestors would back off Vietnam and other issues if he gave them that, they didn't.

GreenGene

Sometimes I wonder what this nation would be like if we hadn't made the liberal gains we did in the 60's-70's, not to mention if the Worker Revolution hadn't occured in the early 1900's either.

People just do not understand what it was like under a Corporate Rule, they think like they say on faux or radio they going to create jobs and well, they've been saying that since 1980, we should be awash in jobs, well they did create jobs, in India, China, Mexico anywhere they could exploit cheap labor and a lack of environmental laws and regulations, we've polluted some places horribly, kids have serious birth defects, cancers, it's really sad.

They are where we were in the late 1800's before OUR Worker Revolution, and we're headed back there thanks to scripted propaganda tv and radio.

gennady

Hatterasguy said:

It has been that way since the beginning of time, Paul. That's capitalism.

I understand that you don't like it and the average worker might be better off under socialism.

Lacking that change, it is what it is. A company can pay only a "competitive" wage and not a penny more if they want to survive.

I lived under socialist/communist rule.
Watching Berny speak makes me sick. I feel like I have deja vu.
And all these, blaming capitalism, yes, there are a lot of problems. But lucky you, living and whining in USA.

Steamhead

Not the same thing. Socialism has meant different things to different people over the years. Whatever one might think of Senator Sanders, he does not embrace the Soviet-style totalitarianism that you fortunately escaped.

And we must never forget the "National Socialist Worker's Party" in 1930s Germany, and what a nightmare that was.

Go here for an interesting discussion of the term:

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/socialism

gennady

Bernie reminds me Trotsky, when Leo Trotsky spoke, russian workers were pissing with boiling water. Oh boy, were these words sweet.
About capitalists, banks, business owners, unfairness of life and so on. Nothing new. Just listen to Bernie. Same old song and dance. And all this ended up in total disaster. Tens of millions killed and totalitarian society for 70 years.

SWEI

GreenGene said:

What we have is a Corporate Monarchy or Oligarchy.

I like the term Casino Capitalism.

Steve Minnich

Bernie is done and has almost conceded as much.

Steve Minnich

I was intrigued by Bernie but I never thought he was electable.

I never thought the guy on the other side was electable either.

Steve Minnich

I hope you're right.

BobC

What goes on in large corporations is not capitalism as we know it. It has become perverted by the buying and selling of influence and has resulted in anything but a level playing field. It is nothing but grand larceny writ large on the world stage.

Corporations are not responsive to the will of the shareholders, they respond to the board of directors who are in many cases appointed by the CEO That means there are no real checks and balances. They pay themselves outlandish salaries and bonuses that often have little to do with their performance, that's why owning the board of directors is so cozy. The congress is a reflection of corporate america, they are in it for the selves, any good that falls to the public is just an oversight.

We need another Teddy Roosevelt to take the whole thing down again. Look back at the 50's and 60's, tax rates were much higher but everybody could find a decent job and the government worked. It all fell apart when we sold our souls to fund Vietnam which did nothing but pile on debt and got a lot of kids killed for nothing. Whats has gone on in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Syria makes Vietnam look like a walk in the park.

Read Picketty's "Capitol" if you want to understand how perverted things have become. Bernie is extreme but believe me Trumps version of government would mark the end of this grand experiment. It's a poor commentary that we couldn't select better candidates than Hillary and Donald.

Bob

Robert O'Brien

gennady said:

Hatterasguy said:

It has been that way since the beginning of time, Paul. That's capitalism.

I understand that you don't like it and the average worker might be better off under socialism.

Lacking that change, it is what it is. A company can pay only a "competitive" wage and not a penny more if they want to survive.

I lived under socialist/communist rule.
Watching Berny speak makes me sick. I feel like I have deja vu.
And all these, blaming capitalism, yes, there are a lot of problems. But lucky you, living and whining in USA.

Best comment ever!

Gordy

BobC

Keep drinking that kool aid

http://www.asyousow.org/ays_report/the-100-most-overpaid-ceos-are-fund-managers-asleep-at-the-wheel/

Then read the book

Bob

BobC

85% of my investments are in mutual funds and i know Vanguard has fought with more than a few corporations about executive compensation.

If a company is privately held they are free to do as they please, if it's publicly owned that is a different story.

read the book,

Bob

njtommy

Unions in general get a really bad rap now a days. Do to every one thinking they are over paid and do very little.

Unfortunately Union pipefitters, plumbers, welders, ironworks, HVACR service techs, electricians, and others. Get lumped into the mess too even from non Union guys who have no idea what it's like to be Union.
I've worked on both sides as an hvacr tech. I will take Union pay, benefits, and pension any day of the week.

hot_rod

Hatterasguy said:

SWEI said:

Oh, and check out some of the numbers in that link I posted above. More massive cost shifting.

But, in most cases, going on disability means you will not work, you will not get a raise, you will not get whatever meaning people get from work. Going on disability means, assuming you rely only on those disability payments, you will be poor for the rest of your life. That's the deal. And it's a deal 14 million Americans have signed up for.


An interesting conundrum. They make a bargain with the devil and believe that they will be better off for it.

Some are truly disabled and cannot work. Others make the choice to be permanently poor (unless they they are similar to the LIRR workers, of course).

Or they find a way to work cash only. Many of the construction trades have "Cash Deals working for them.