Why are energy efficiency standards so far behind the technology?

Steamhead

To a troll, that IS an ivory tower!

ChrisJ

In the words of Pope Julius II, When will you make an end!!!!!!!!!

njtommy

The Navien is an inexpensive boiler. Look up HTP or Lochinvar you will find that their prices will be double or even high depending on model.

njtommy

Trying to take it up to 500 comments. Lol

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

In the words of Pope Julius II, When will you make an end!!!!!!!!!

Clearly, we ain't done yet...........

The proper response would've been "When I am FINISHED!!!"

vaporvac

AJinCT said:

Steamhead, Quick Google search for a 75,000 BTU gas boiler gives me a Peerless for $1770, a Navien NHB-80 is $1825. Even if you figure the time savings of not hauling the CI clunker around is eaten up by venting and re-piping for the Navien, the Navien is still a much better deal.

"A lot" is not a defined number. It's pretty obvious that a lot of steam systems are a mess, and steam is way less forgiving than hot water.

I was considering the space consumed by a big steam boiler and the maze of pipes versus a mod/con with PEX piping, the controllability and zoneability of the mod/con, and the maintenance needed for the steam system versus virtually none for gas hot water.

From extensive reading on this site, I would argue that steam is MUCH more forgiving of bad installs: it may bang (usually due to pipe sag), hiss or be slow to heat, but even with a gaping hole in the boiler, it will still heat! Most of the bad HW installs result in no or sub-par heat. It also doesn't take much to get a steam system running top-notch once one knows what to do.

I'd also say that steam systems don't generally need a lot of maintenance. Everything needs something done regularly if you want it to last. It's becoming more apparent that HW installs require water maintenance, as well.

BobC

And how many Naviens will you have to buy to last as long as the Peerless?

Also we don't usually discuss pricing per se.

Bob

ChrisJ

BobC said:

And how many Naviens will you have to buy to last as long as the Peerless?

Also we don't usually discuss pricing per se.

Bob

I believe @Steamhead asked him to provide pricing.
I think he made an exception for this rare..............treat.

Steamhead

BobC said:

And how many Naviens will you have to buy to last as long as the Peerless?

Probably several.............

BobC said:

Also we don't usually discuss pricing per se.

We're not supposed to discuss pricing at all. That appears at the top of each page, with a yellow background. Pretty easy to see, if you're paying attention.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

I believe @Steamhead asked him to provide pricing.
I think he made an exception for this rare..............treat.

That was sort of a trick question. Posting numbers is something AJinCT consistently refuses to do. I didn't specifically mention pricing. Here is my quote:

Steamhead said:

Post your numbers. If you have them, that is. I suspect you don't.

as in, which boilers were cheaper than the Navien?

But, as @njtommy correctly pointed out:

njtommy said:

The Navien is an inexpensive boiler. Look up HTP or Lochinvar you will find that their prices will be double or even high(er) depending on model.

which opens up a lot more CI boilers as being less expensive than a mod-con. To say nothing of all the extra installation work needed, assuming there is a proper and safe way to install one, as @The Steam Whisperer correctly pointed out.

R Mannino

Steamhead said:

ChrisJ said:

I believe @Steamhead asked him to provide pricing.
I think he made an exception for this rare..............treat.

That was sort of a trick question. Posting numbers is something AJinCT consistently refuses to do. I didn't specifically mention pricing. Here is my quote:

Steamhead said:

Post your numbers. If you have them, that is. I suspect you don't.

as in, which boilers were cheaper than the Navien?

But, as @njtommy correctly pointed out:

njtommy said:

The Navien is an inexpensive boiler. Look up HTP or Lochinvar you will find that their prices will be double or even high(er) depending on model.

which opens up a lot more CI boilers as being less expensive than a mod-con. To say nothing of all the extra installation work needed, assuming there is a proper and safe way to install one, as @The Steam Whisperer correctly pointed out.

Well said Frank, I'm still waiting for some numbers too...........

Steamhead

Don't hold your breath..............

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

Don't hold your breath..............

Abracadabra

AJinCT said:

Gas hot water can run for 20 years with zero maintenance.

LOL!!!

njtommy

@AJinCT I'm very familiar with the Navien products do to having one in my own home along with having installed quite a few of them as well.

I really like my Navien combi, but it lacks control options the tdr is crap.

ChrisJ

Abracadabra said:

AJinCT said:

Gas hot water can run for 20 years with zero maintenance.

LOL!!!

Yeah......
He kinda bought the farm with that comment.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

Abracadabra said:

AJinCT said:

Gas hot water can run for 20 years with zero maintenance.

LOL!!!

Yeah......
He kinda bought the farm with that comment.

Well, well.

Here is the boiler manual for the Weil-McLain Ultra, a mod-con that has sold a few units. The maintenance section begins on page 109:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/ultra-manual_1.pdf

Triangle Tube's Prestige Solo's manual is here- this is also fairly popular as mod-cons go. Jump to page 64 in the PDF for the maintenance instructions:

http://www.triangletube.com/documents/33/Prestige_60_175_250_399_Manual.pdf

On the cast-iron side, the maintenance instructions for the Burnham Series 2 start on page 32 of this PDF:

https://file.ac/ppQZpobSbGs/Series 2 I&O.pdf

Give 'em enough rope.......................

Gordy

Im going to go out on a limb here. I'm assuming that AJ is talking about a dedicated water heater in a radiant heat application. Since he mentioned cryo-tek.

With that being said it is entirely possible for a water heater to last for 20 years. Being it would not be subject to the constant freshwater.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

Im going to go out on a limb here. I'm assuming that AJ is talking about a dedicated water heater in a radiant heat application. Since he mentioned cryo-tek.

With that being said it is entirely possible for a water heater to last for 20 years. Being it would not be subject to the constant freshwater.

With zero maintenance?
Yeah, boilers seem to love that.

Gordy

Depends on the type of water heater, and water quality when filled Chris. AJ claims a need to drain, and refill. That would be worse than filling, and let it go.

What tears a water heater up Chris?

Gordy

My CI boiler is 22 years old. It's not needed one part. Do I check things, yes.

R Mannino

Gordy said:

My CI boiler is 22 years old. It's not needed one part. Do I check things, yes.

Reliability in a heating system is overrated (tongue in cheek). It's CI so it's a clunker (again tongue in cheek).

Gordy

The original lasted 41 years.....thing is the original and existing are connected to radiant. Present is bypass piping original was not.

Steamhead

AJinCT said:

I was referring to a gas hot water system with a boiler and a closed loop. Cryo-Tek has to be changed every 10 years. I grew up in a house with gas hot water, and it ran for 20 years without anyone touching it.

Sure about that? For example, are you sure the service person didn't come while you were in school? No one ever drained the expansion tank? Bled the radiators?

Unless you were there 24/7/365/20, your statement really has no basis.

Gordy

Like I said I went out on a limb. Timberrrr.

Why was the system filled with glycol?

No you don't need to drain, and refill system periodically. Ever. Unless it has to be done to do work on it.

Steamhead

Looks like AJ needs a backhoe, he's digging himself deeper and deeper....................

ChrisJ

It's ok.
He's using a steam shovel.

Gordy

Hatterasguy said:

Steamhead said:

Looks like AJ needs a backhoe, he's digging himself deeper and deeper....................

He's had the backhoe for quite awhile. What he needs is for a contractor to fence off the construction site because, apparently, that 20 foot chasm is simply irresistible to many.

It takes talent to be thebackhoe operator, and be able to bury yourself with it.

Rich_49

AJinCT said:

njtommy, That's fine, some people are willing to buy the premium product, but for a fair comparison you have to compare what's out there on each side. Also, for some systems, the Navien will actually work *better*, as it's got a 10:1 TDR versus most others which can only do 5:1.

vaporvac, Steam needs maintenance. Gas hot water can run for 20 years with zero maintenance. That being said, having seen what's in those pipes, I would drain and re-fill periodically, and you have to if you've got Cryo-Tek.

ChrisJ, I was responding to Steamhead's question. I can edit the posts to list the model numbers only if need be, it's easy to Google from there.

If I am not mistaken , didi AJ not state earlier that he is an engineer , can he or someone else verify ?

Maybe you could get a gig with DOE AJ and move the bar . You'd be perfect because nobody else that is a part of that Agency has a friggin clue either .

Jesus Christ , I cannot believe I contained myself this long .
Just so ya know AJ . The standards will never be in tune with the technology . That has to do with K Street lobbyists . As long as the low cost stuff is being made the high end stuff will not be mandated , manufacturers are happy because they make both .
Builders will cry because they'd have to up the price of the trash they construct to make like money or leave the price alone and take the hit .
Specifying Mechanical Engineers would actually have to learn something because at present they are the dumbest creatures in the process . How bout taking some responsibility for your design S*%theads ?
Codes such as IECC 2012 - 2015 would have to be adopted by States and once again their builders ****'s would cry bloody murder .
The consumer has a lcear choice to do it right yet still will **** about spending an extra 3-4 K for a proper heating system but has no problem purchasing the latest cell phone every 3 months , TV every 2 years , refrigerator ( wouldn't leave you out ChrisJ ) whenever there is a 12 dollar rebate available .

You Sir at this point have been given the rope , inserted neck , floor fell out , rope stretched , and has long since broke .
But since you are still with us I suggest writing a letter to the Dean of Admissions of the school of higher education which you attended and demand a full refund of your tuition . It was a waste of your parents money and your time . DOE is probably hiring next year after the administration changes , you're in luck , go make a difference . But please learn something about what you speak of prior to doing so .

Wow ! Politics , Religion and incorrectness all in one post . I apologize to all the lambs who have read this in advance . Trolls suck !

Fred

Must be more fun to continue to beat a dead horse than to drag it to a hole and bury it. The stench is the same in either case, at least while the deed is being done. Why does everyone continue to "take the bait" (of course unless you are having fun) ?

KC_Jones

Fred said:

(of course unless you are having fun) ?

Bingo....it's about the entertainment value for me at this point.

R Mannino

Fred said:

Must be more fun to continue to beat a dead horse than to drag it to a hole and bury it. The stench is the same in either case, at least while the deed is being done. Why does everyone continue to "take the bait" (of course unless you are having fun) ?

Fred said:

Why does everyone continue to "take the bait" (of course unless you are having fun) ?

Ah ha!

Fred

Twisted sense of humor, LOL!

SWEI

Rich said:

Codes such as IECC 2012 - 2015 would have to be adopted by States and once again their builders ****'s would cry bloody murder.

Tell me about it. We spent two years on a collaborative multi-stakeholder process adapting and modifying the 2009 IECC to meet the needs of New Mexico's different climates, based on a system of zones, and aligning it with our state's deep experience in alternative building techniques, passive solar, and tough economic times. The then-new Governor's handlers decided she should kill it. So she did.

Gordy

Section C402 is where it all starts. 11 pages of static on the radio this is. If code adoption can not be implemented none of this matters. The reasons why see Rich, and SWEIs posts.