Why are energy efficiency standards so far behind the technology?

ChrisJ

His last sentence is his next planned argument.

MarkS

regulatory approaches should encourage heat pumps

I don't see how this can possibly work. You can't make steam with a heat pump.

ChrisJ

MarkS said:

regulatory approaches should encourage heat pumps

I don't see how this can possibly work. You can't make steam with a heat pump.



Why not?

SWEI

Not with R-410A anyway...

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

Not with R-410A anyway...

Steam aside,
It's interesting @AJinCT is promoting the use of refrigerants that have a high GWP in heat pumps.

I'm strictly an organic refrigerant man my self. They're flammable, but they have 0 GWP and 0 ODP.

njtommy

@ChrisJ we could build a heat pump to vacuum steam system. That way we could meet the temps down on the compressor.

JUGHNE

I see it coming, cows and their methane gas attacks are the next target.

Harvey Ramer

@AJinCT
Are you one of those that advocate for a tax on the farmers to address cow farts? (methane)
I'm not kidding, our fearless leaders tried to get it passed.

This thread is mostly pointless anyway.

Gordy

AJinCT said:

What would the code have done to go above and beyond the federal standards?

I'm not sure how it should be approached, but regulatory approaches should encourage heat pumps, especially in milder climates. In the Southeast and Southwest, there's no reason to be burning stuff to heat. And even in New England, we can go much of the year without burning stuff with cold weather heat pumps.

Of course, where the power comes from is also a challenge, since we are way behind in building new nuclear power plants.

I figured you would be PV, wind, hydro, nukes have a long cradle to grave, along with their waste.

JUGHNE

There has been some preliminary work done on a cow feed additive to reduce flatulence. I want the copyright rights on the trademark "Bovine Beano"

Steamhead

AJinCT said:

What would the code have done to go above and beyond the federal standards?

I'm not sure how it should be approached, but regulatory approaches should encourage heat pumps, especially in milder climates. In the Southeast and Southwest, there's no reason to be burning stuff to heat. And even in New England, we can go much of the year without burning stuff with cold weather heat pumps.

Of course, where the power comes from is also a challenge, since we are way behind in building new nuclear power plants.

About time to activate the ........................

Abracadabra

Steamhead said:

About time to activate the ........................

It's pegged!!!

Steamhead

Abracadabra said:

Steamhead said:

About time to activate the ........................

It's pegged!!!

That's saying something. This meter doesn't just go to 11- it goes all the way to 12!

ChrisJ

Disappointed steamhead.
Using a meter without a damped movement, how cheesy is that?

ChrisJ

AJinCT said:

Harvey Ramer, yes we do need to drastically reduce our meat production and consumption. Meat should not be cheap, the only reason it is so cheap now is that numerous negative externalities, like manure production, feed production, and methane emissions, all of which are environmental disasters are not priced into the meat. CAFOs should be eliminated, and small farmers should produce all of our meat. Yes, I know they could never produce what we consume now, that's part of the point. Meat should be expensive, vegetables and fruits should be cheaper.

Gordy, we should absolutely massively expand PV and wind turbines to each produce at least 25% of our power. However, for the sake of grid stability, we need baseload generation, and that's either coal, gas, or nuclear. Nuclear is the only acceptable option from a deep decarbonisation perspective, and while it is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination, it is very cost stable.

Harvey Ramer

Why don't you start doing your part and pay more for meat and fuel than you have to. I'm sure the sellers won't object.


How about everyone just gets along and doesn't try to force their opinion down other people's throats. That is, after all how wars get started. Wars are the least healthy for the environment and the people out of anything I can think of. So let me ask you this AJinCT, what's the environmental impact of an attitude that legislates the people forcefully into an unaffordable lifestyle and ends up impoverishing societies of which will ultimately rise up and fight for their lost freedoms?

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

Steamhead said:

About time to activate the ........................

Finally.

It took awhile but you eventually came around.

SWEI

AJinCT said:

Meat should not be cheap, the only reason it is so cheap now is that numerous negative externalities, like manure production, feed production, and methane emissions, all of which are environmental disasters are not priced into the meat.

Ahem.

Gordy

Meat is cheap? where? Red meat? Again oh where?

Rich_49

List of possible future employers grows : DOE , EPA , BLM , Carbon tax advocate .

TDS count says , 990,000 ppm .

ChrisJ

Nobody cares.

njtommy

Getting closer to 500 post.

Gordy

I just think the search for an answer to the original question has been answered 7 ways from Sunday.

Your talking to a group who desperately cares about efficiency on every level from structure to systems. Who desperately cares about codes their validity, And implementation. You will not find a finer, and more forward thinking group of professionals AJ. Quite frankly you need to learn a lot more about the equipment you are debating.

Harvey Ramer

AJinCT said:

Meat should not be cheap, the only reason it is so cheap now is that numerous negative externalities, like manure production, feed production, and methane emissions, all of which are environmental disasters are not priced into the meat.

Manure is great to enrich soil. It contains many essential nutrients. In short, it makes things grow better and increases yield. Environmentally friendly, Check

Feed production;
Just to pick one, we have increased the production of corn from an average of 36.9 bu/acre in 1951 to a current average of 130 bu/acre. And we do it without plowing and tilling therefore, we have all but eliminated erosion. Sounds environmentally friendly and efficient to me. Check

Methane Emissions;
We are busy installing digester systems that harvest the methane from manure. The methane is then used to produce electricity and or hot water. Sounds good to me.

Leon82

I want the government to tell me what to eat, drive, drink, how to heat my house and run every aspect of my life. They have my best interest in their heart and I want them to choose for me. I'm not smart enough to make decisions for my self. They wouldn't do anything for power or money that would make it harder for me to live or prosper!

JUGHNE

In over 6 decades of living in a state that has more cows than people, I have never seen any farm/ranch operation of any size that throws manure away to the land fill. There is an industry built around manure handling, everyone realizes the value of it.
Any liquid runoff is captured and used in fertilizer application.

Yes, in the past things were not so good.....but I would rather step in something on the ground, smell something that seems rather "earthly" than find lead or PCP's in the drinking water.

And that is no Bull!

SWEI

JUGHNE said:

In over 6 decades of living in a state that has more cows than people, I have never seen any farm/ranch operation of any size that throws manure away

Large CAFOs have major issues with manure ponds.

Gordy

Leon82 said:

I want the government to tell me what to eat, drive, drink, how to heat my house and run every aspect of my life. They have my best interest in their heart and I want them to choose for me. I'm not smart enough to make decisions for my self. They wouldn't do anything for power or money that would make it harder for me to live or prosper!

As George Carlin put it that is what they want. They only want people just smart enough ro show up for work run the machine, and do the paper work.

Gordy

JUGHNE said:

In over 6 decades of living in a state that has more cows than people, I have never seen any farm/ranch operation of any size that throws manure away to the land fill. There is an industry built around manure handling, everyone realizes the value of it.
Any liquid runoff is captured and used in fertilizer application.

Yes, in the past things were not so good.....but I would rather step in something on the ground, smell something that seems rather "earthly" than find lead or PCP's in the drinking water.

And that is no Bull!

All I know is I'm glad I do not live by a hog farm. An acquired smell I'm sure.

Where I'm from the beef cattle, milkers, refuge gets dispersed in the fields with the manure spreader. Concentration per acre plays a role here. All I see is it does not get spread evenly over a field. It's the closest to the barn with out piling up.

JUGHNE

I am sure......but things are improving....as in any environmental department. We have a newer feedlot, maybe 15,000 head, they have lined ponds for liquid runoff, the place is surrounded by monitor wells to check the water quality. (The state EPA dept. has plenty of clipboard commandos around checking things.)

In the 4-5 years they have been there, (we live down wind 4 miles away), I have smelled nasties maybe 4 times. One of the major investors built a million plus house within 2 miles of the cows.

This was put here to partner with our local Ethanol plant to consume the brewer's by-product......cows are happy cows.
The Ethanol word has to be another hot button I imagine...

Gordy

You had to say it.

SWEI

The new, new thing is closed-cycle dairy and pig operations. Pretty impressive stuff, and they require a lot less external energy inputs.

Gordy

You had to say it.

KC_Jones

This thread has gotten really crappy. 481 only 19 more to go.

Abracadabra

What happens at 500? Does the thread disappear? Forum crashes?

ChrisJ

Abracadabra said:

What happens at 500? Does the thread disappear? Forum crashes?

Whoever makes the 500th post gets enrolled in a Jelly of the month club.