Why are energy efficiency standards so far behind the technology?

Fred

Gordy said:

My Mom is from northern Italy, and I have 4 uncles in Italy they told me the reason no ice cold drinks, or iced beverages are served is because the government has determined it to cause problems with the digestives system. They have socialized health care.

I was going to add that they even drink thier water (always bottled water) warm.

Gordy

so in a nut shell Europe in general has always had to contend with high energy prices. This transcends into utilized public transportation. The high use of energy efficient comfort systems. The implementation of alternative energy sources.

So long as a society has cheap energy, and tends to be gluttonous to begin with change will be a brick wall.

So if you go waaayyy back to one of my posts in the spirit of the thread it's the cost of energy that stone walls governments energy efficiency standards.

Let's face it if the product i seek to sell is limited by a standard, law,or code that seeks to limit the quantity of what i sell then I'm not making the money that a code less market would allow

Gordy

Fred said:

Gordy said:

My Mom is from northern Italy, and I have 4 uncles in Italy they told me the reason no ice cold drinks, or iced beverages are served is because the government has determined it to cause problems with the digestives system. They have socialized health care.

I was going to add that they even drink thier water (always bottled water) warm.

Quite frankly if you get use to drinking it that way it quenches my thirst much more effectively than ice water.

Fred

Gordy said:

Fred said:

Gordy said:

My Mom is from northern Italy, and I have 4 uncles in Italy they told me the reason no ice cold drinks, or iced beverages are served is because the government has determined it to cause problems with the digestives system. They have socialized health care.

I was going to add that they even drink thier water (always bottled water) warm.

Quite frankly if you get use to drinking it that way it quenches my thirst much more effectively than ice water.

I guess, LOL. I'm just not a plain water drinker. Green tea for me.

Gordy

My point falls to all most any beverage.......except beer for me.

BobC

i lived on a mountaintop in Korea (about 3,400 ft) for 13 months on a remote communications site with 5 other GI's and about 6 Koreans. We had a good sized fridge powered off the generator that powered the transmitters. About 500 ft below the mountain peak there was a village that had no power except for a maybe 5a 120v line (WD2 communication wire #19? ) we ran down there for lights and radio's, they had a fire in the brush one afternoon when one of the villagers tried to use an iron.

They had no refrigeration whatsoever and lived just fine. If they slaughtered something it was eaten that day. There were 3 oxen in that little valley and a several dozen chickens. Any milk they got that morning was used that day. They farmed a good crop of vegetables and traded that for rice with villages below.

They had lived that lifestyle for thousands of years. I saw woman who gave birth during the night plowing fields that afternoon. They were very hardy people who worked the land and cared for their families.

The point is we have become accustomed to huge refrigerators and theer really isn't any real need for them. When I was a kid most were 7-10 cuft and served our needs just fine.

Bob

ChrisJ

BobC said:

i lived on a mountaintop in Korea (about 3,400 ft) for 13 months on a remote communications site with 5 other GI's and about 6 Koreans. We had a good sized fridge powered off the generator that powered the transmitters. About 500 ft below the mountain peak there was a village that had no power except for a maybe 5a 120v line (WD2 communication wire #19? ) we ran down there for lights and radio's, they had a fire in the brush one afternoon when one of the villagers tried to use an iron.

They had no refrigeration whatsoever and lived just fine. If they slaughtered something it was eaten that day. There were 3 oxen in that little valley and a several dozen chickens. Any milk they got that morning was used that day. They farmed a good crop of vegetables and traded that for rice with villages below.

They had lived that lifestyle for thousands of years. I saw woman who gave birth during the night plowing fields that afternoon. They were very hardy people who worked the land and cared for their families.

The point is we have become accustomed to huge refrigerators and theer really isn't any real need for them. When I was a kid most were 7-10 cuft and served our needs just fine.

Bob

And cars.
And houses.
And sodas.

Fact is I'm probably one of the fattest people on the forum and I'm saying 7cuft is plenty. That should tell you something.

Gordy

Really it's about habits. More so shopping. Americans feel the need to stock pile food when it is actually readily available any time to buy. We are like squirrels burying nuts in the summer for winter. By the time winter comes the nut is decomposed.

I would like to see the tonnage of food thrown away in this country by super markets on a yearly basis. Sickening from what I have seen disposed of with my own eyes.

As Hot Rod, myself, and others point out other countries shop as needed on a daily basis. Usually on the way home from work. Which actually does not create more of a carbon foot print since its on the way home anyway. This also creates more of a steady flow of perishable items from markets which cuts down on waste, and long term need to store items refrigerated, or frozen.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

RJMCTAFO

That is the attitude you displayed about the refrigerator that was suggested you should purchase. I just changed the word refrigerator to boiler.

Sooooooooo

Here is what it comes down to. Don't tell me you want to regulate the way I buy my heating and A/C by passing government regulations. In turn I wont tell you that I am gonna have ChrisJ drop off your new Moniter Top refrigerator.

See it's that easy. I buy what I want and you do the same.

#freemarket

ChrisJ

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, Every other factor, like the size, the direct venting, the modulation, points to the Navien over the Weil.

RJMCTAFO, That's an amazingly back-asswards attitude.

And now we have refrigeratorhelp.com apparently.

No, I run that forum, well, sort of. We only help with antique refrigerators, but that's moot.

I simply took the subject I know a lot about, and applied your logic to it and the results are the same. You didn't like the thought of someone forcing you to buy things you don't want to regardless of whats best for the environment.

All that was said here was true, current refrigerators sold in the US are energy pigs. They're overszied and packed with useless features that waste energy both in their creation and in use.

That "Energy Star" tag may give you a warm and fuzzy but it's B.S.

You don't want the government forcing you to do whats best for the environment if it means inconveniencing you even a little bit.

Fact is, you only want the government forcing others to do what you want to do.

Gordy

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, Every other factor, like the size, the direct venting, the modulation, points to the Navien over the Weil.

RJMCTAFO, That's an amazingly back-asswards attitude.

And now we have refrigeratorhelp.com apparently.

Seems to me you need to have a better understanding of HE equipment to even begin to make a comparison of the initial advertised word of such equipments efficiency.

That is what conditions HE boilers actually get their 93/95% stated efficiencies. Sometimes they do no better than a modern CI boilers efficiency.

The refrigerator analogies are on point as with any equipment trying to be more efficient.

Why buy a 25 CF refrigerator, and consistently use 10 cf. is that being green?

If I drive a Tahoe, and spend 100 dollars a week on gas. I decide to buy an economy car. I still spend 100 dollars a week in gas because I drive it more. Have I saved anything, or become greener in my efforts?

As far as refrigerator efficiency comparisons with old verses new. Chris leaves out all the things his old fridge does not do that new ones do with the same, or slightly more power consumption, and size.

So if I buy an energy efficient boiler to swap out with an old lower efficiency boiler. I choose to not correctly size it, and ignore envelope improvements. Then am I greener for it?

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, Every other factor, like the size, the direct venting, the modulation, points to the Navien over the Weil.

RJMCTAFO, That's an amazingly back-asswards attitude.

And now we have refrigeratorhelp.com apparently.

No, I run that forum, well, sort of. We only help with antique refrigerators, but that's moot.

I simply took the subject I know a lot about, and applied your logic to it and the results are the same. You didn't like the thought of someone forcing you to buy things you don't want to regardless of whats best for the environment.

All that was said here was true, current refrigerators sold in the US are energy pigs. They're overszied and packed with useless features that waste energy both in their creation and in use.

That "Energy Star" tag may give you a warm and fuzzy but it's B.S.

You don't want the government forcing you to do whats best for the environment if it means inconveniencing you even a little bit.

Fact is, you only want the government forcing others to do what you want to do.

You boast your monitor top in comparison, yet ignore what new refrigerators do that old ones do not with slightly more power usage.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

ChrisJ said:

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, Every other factor, like the size, the direct venting, the modulation, points to the Navien over the Weil.

RJMCTAFO, That's an amazingly back-asswards attitude.

And now we have refrigeratorhelp.com apparently.

No, I run that forum, well, sort of. We only help with antique refrigerators, but that's moot.

I simply took the subject I know a lot about, and applied your logic to it and the results are the same. You didn't like the thought of someone forcing you to buy things you don't want to regardless of whats best for the environment.

All that was said here was true, current refrigerators sold in the US are energy pigs. They're overszied and packed with useless features that waste energy both in their creation and in use.

That "Energy Star" tag may give you a warm and fuzzy but it's B.S.

You don't want the government forcing you to do whats best for the environment if it means inconveniencing you even a little bit.

Fact is, you only want the government forcing others to do what you want to do.

You boast your monitor top in comparison, yet ignore what new refrigerators do that old ones do not with slightly more power usage.

Woah wait, where did you see that?
A 1935 6 cubic foot monitor top runs on practically the same power that a brand new 5.6 cubic foot manual defrost mini-fridge does.

Where do you see new ones, running on slightly more power, with more features? The only decent ones were the ones BobC mentioned and those seem awesome in my book though we don't know how long they last overall. I'd still push for people to buy them.

http://www.sunfrost.com/all_efficient_refrigerator_models.html


Personally, I don't care about new "features". Our 2011 Kitchenaid has no icemaker because I was against it. They're a PITA and do nothing but cause problems especially when they get old.

Gordy

If yours is bigger, and uses the same power then if the newer model were same size it would use slightly more power no?

Which one is lighter? Which one uses less material to build?

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

If yours is bigger, and uses the same power then if the newer model were same size it would use slightly more power no?

Which one is lighter? Which one uses less material to build?

Good point, except that the monitor tops are still running after 80+ years.

A new mini fridge with plastic interior will likely be in a land fill in 10 to 20 years.

The Steam Whisperer

Like most things, if you want to know why it is like it is, follow the money.

Forced air heating clearly dominates the US market, despite it being virtually non-existent in other countries where efficiency is a norm. So what's going on here in the US?
The current efficiency standards only look at fuel burnt in, and Btus out. This is despite 25 years of the gas industry's research arm ( located here in Chicago) to get this standard changed. Electrical use is ignored, as is the btu's it adds to the heat stream of the appliance. Big, energy gobbling fans increase the efficiency rating of current furnaces. These additional btus I believe are also ignored in cooling SEER ratings, artificially inflating the efficiency numbers of ducted central air system.
Also, better efficiency standards would also be looking at system efficiency and how the system interacts with the building and occupant comfort.
According to DOE testing, the typical forced air system losses 23% of its heating and cooling before it reaches the living spaces. Also, and I am not sure how much these numbers overlap, the air leakage of a structure increases 10% when ductwork is installed and not in use, and increases 50% when the furnace blower turns on. Typical forced air systems do not allow room by room zoning, which is available with other systems. I haven't seen data on this potential energy savings, but I am sure it is significant.
When looking at the interaction of the system and the comfort of occupants, the often stated a btu is a btu is found to be untrue. I don't know of any typical modern forced air systems that deliver anything but convective forms of heat. However, if a system can deliver large amounts of radiant heat, the black body temperature is higher than the air temperature, allowing lower air temperatures to maintain the same comfort level. If you add in the decreased air leakage too and the accompanying higher humidity levels this creates in occupied building (wet bulb temperature), there starts to be a significant difference in the air temperature that needs to be maintained in a building to achieve comfort. The general rule is that space can be kept 2 to 3 degrees cooler most of the year if heating with a system that delivers large amount of radiant heat. 2 to 3 degrees cooler over the course of a season in most northern cities is another 6 to 9% reduction in heating fuel needed. I believe this is the radiant heat effect often cited in radiant emitter heat output ratings.
If the efficiency standards were truly raised in the US, the forced air industry would get clobbered with system efficiency ratings in the 60% range. Who do think has the most money to loose,if the standards are raised? This is probably a major reason why the standards haven't changed, especially taking into account the response the gas industry's has received.

R Mannino

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, Every other factor, like the size, the direct venting, the modulation, points to the Navien over the Weil.

The Navien has more moving parts which means it has a greater chance of failure in my book that makes it less reliable. Some people place reliability above efficiency . I purchased a vehicle and reliability was one of the important factors for me. It happens to get less mpg than the other choices from what I was able to gather but reliability was more important to me. How much reliability are you willing to sacrifice for the sake of efficiency?

Some people really hate direct venting they don't want to see the vapor plume. Some homes are very difficult if not impossible to direct vent.

sunlight33

I've been to Europe many times and I can tell you how Europeans are shocked looking at our cereal aisle. There really isn't any real need for most of them.

Also can someone enlighten me on why Americans hoard toilet papers before hurricanes? I can understand the reason for bread and milk, but toilet papers?

SWEI

Just price the true cost of their exploration, extraction, distribution, use, and cleanup into all fuels and overall system efficiency will begin to drive purchasing behavior. Efficiency standards are a Band-Aid, not a cure.

ChrisJ

sunlight33 said:

I've been to Europe many times and I can tell you how Europeans are shocked looking at our cereal aisle. There really isn't any real need for most of them.

Also can someone enlighten me on why Americans hoard toilet papers before hurricanes? I can understand the reason for bread and milk, but toilet papers?

I can't understand the reason for bread and milk or toilet paper.
This isn't the 1920s, roads are open and clear very shortly after any storm. Many areas have a forecast of 2" of snow and everyone buys all the bread and milk they can find. Like the town will be shut down for 2 months.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

This isn't the 1920s, roads are open and clear very shortly after any storm.

Not in Baltimore. It took them over a week to plow everyone out after the last major snowstorm. Fortunately, we have a city election this year.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

regarding AJinCT:
You don't want the government forcing you to do whats best for the environment if it means inconveniencing you even a little bit.

Fact is, you only want the government forcing others to do what you want to do.

Yup.

Gordy

sunlight33 said:

I've been to Europe many times and I can tell you how Europeans are shocked looking at our cereal aisle. There really isn't any real need for most of them.

Also can someone enlighten me on why Americans hoard toilet papers before hurricanes? I can understand the reason for bread and milk, but toilet papers?

Well milk is a little hard to refrigerate do to power outages from hurricanes. Usually water is hoarded. TP why of course we want a clean caboose no matter the natural disaster.

Choices. People like choices. I can remember about 6 choices for soap, shampoo, deodorant etc. now look at it. Each company has that many in the same line. Same goes for any product on the grocery store shelves.

As far as toilet paper someone has determined there is a proffesional series. Who would want to use the armature brand.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Steamhead

AJinCT said:

RJMCTAFO, Well actually, exactly the opposite. The free market clearly doesn't work here. If it did, all gas heating and water appliances would be condensing, oil boilers would be wrapped in 3" of insulation, and heat pumps would all be cold-weather VRF. And that's not the case.

Nope- in a completely free market, only the cheapest stuff would sell.

Keep drinking your Kool-Aid..............

Gordy

My point is unless extreme attention to detail of the total system is accounted for no equipment is going to give its highest potential efficiency. When I say total system it's the envelope, emitters, distribution piping, or duct work, and the appliance itself.

Putting a 90plus anything into an inefficient rest of system is not the answer. All though people believe that.mwe know better.

Kool aid. I'm thinking everclear

R Mannino

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, More moving parts because it works much better than the Weil.

I just don't believe that logic. I've seen very creative ways of venting all over the place, and some of them just use the existing chimney now that it's no longer needed as a traditional natural draft chimney. It could get challenging in apartments and condos, but so be it. They'll just have to figure it out, which is what good installers are doing now anyway, not taking the shortcut of installing a low-efficiency furnace or water heater.

I know why it has more moving parts but it's still likely to be less reliable.
Believe the logic people don't want to see the vapor plume.
Using the existing chimney works I do it about 80% of the time usually because it's the only way it will work.

I have never heard of the installation of standard efficiency equipment described as a shortcut.

ChrisJ

When I installed my steamer the main reason I chose an atmospheric boiler with an AFUE rating of 82.9% over a wet base boiler with a power burner was simplicity.

Simple is almost always more reliable and when it fails, easier and cheaper to fix.

This of course isn't always the case, but it usually is.

njtommy

This weekend we had to do a system and tank style hot water heater swap out. The Homes prefab chimney fell over and was not worth the money to rebuild it. I'm not sure why or how I didn't ask. We installed 96% forced hot dust for furnace and a Navien tankless.
Venting was a huge nightmare.

The front of the house no wants to see vents. The back of the house was all deck/ patio. The one side of the house had the garage on it and the other was the AC condenser, gas meter, and fire place chimney. High efficiency is great but venting can be a real nightmare.

ChrisJ

njtommy said:

This weekend we had to do a system and tank style hot water heater swap out. The Homes prefab chimney fell over and was not worth the money to rebuild it. I'm not sure why or how I didn't ask. We installed 96% forced hot dust for furnace and a Navien tankless.

Venting was a huge nightmare.



The front of the house no wants to see vents. The back of the house was all deck/ patio. The one side of the house had the garage on it and the other was the AC condenser, gas meter, and fire place chimney. High efficiency is great but venting can be a real nightmare.

If any of it was easy, it wouldn't be a skill.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Gordy

Everyone looks at or should look at ROI with any major energy efficiency improvement. When you pay over double for an HE
boiler over a ci boiler. Baby sit it yearly with proper maintenance, coupled with more expensive parts, and perceived shorter life span which reflects on the quality of the installation the ROI is not there until fuel prices go through the roof.

The consumer that does buy HE does so either because they do not fully understand the potential of the equipment( maintenance, the ability to easily get less than quoted efficiencies), or because they want to decrease their carbon foot print with out being told they have to, and do their own do diligence with their contribution.

If we as a nation will ever make it possible to acheive a higher standard of energy codes we have to use better incentive programs on a federal, state, local, and utility level. Because it will be that, or we wait until fuel is so costly, and scarce that it has to be done.

In Italy my uncle has to pay local inspectors 150 bucks a year to have his heating system inspected. That's a yearly cost. iF the system does not meet the requirements for efficiency it is tagged out until it is upgraded. That is the kind of enforcement that needs to happen here.

sunlight33

I wonder how many would pay $3000+ for a Sun Frost fridge?

Gordy

Someone who wants to desperately be green, and has the green to do so.

Steamhead

AJinCT said:

Steamhead, you're assuming uninformed customers. If all customers are informed, which in theory is required for the ideal free market, then only the most efficient stuff would sell.

It is obvious you are completely uninformed about how things work in the real world. You need to get out of your engineers' ivory tower. But that would be too much like work, wouldn't it? So much easier to keep trolling a website............

ChrisJ

sunlight33 said:

I wonder how many would pay $3000+ for a Sun Frost fridge?

Everyone if the government forced them to.

hot_rod

Gordy said:

Really it's about habits. More so shopping. Americans feel the need to stock pile food when it is actually readily available any time to buy. We are like squirrels burying nuts in the summer for winter. By the time winter comes the nut is decomposed.

I would like to see the tonnage of food thrown away in this country by super markets on a yearly basis. Sickening from what I have seen disposed of with my own eyes.

As Hot Rod, myself, and others point out other countries shop as needed on a daily basis. Usually on the way home from work. Which actually does not create more of a carbon foot print since its on the way home anyway. This also creates more of a steady flow of perishable items from markets which cuts down on waste, and long term need to store items refrigerated, or frozen.

SWEI

Paraphrasing a quote from a famous economist some years back, "I've never seen a free market larger than an acre in size." Take away (or intentionally obscure) the price signals and the market will fail to function.

njtommy

@AJinCT they have gas and all the equipment was 95% or higher so it was direct vent.

Sometimes their is just not many places to run the lines but up or out where they are visible.

Gas meters, Windows, electricity meters all change this when you have to run them out side walls or out of basements