Why are energy efficiency standards so far behind the technology?

KC_Jones

If that's the case we need people to post....quickly.

KC_Jones

I see what I want to see. I like a dead troll better.

ChrisJ

JELLY OF THE MONTH CLUB!

KC_Jones

Perhaps we should just get it to 499 and then stop posting.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

KC_Jones said:

Perhaps we should just get it to 499 and then stop posting.

........ah.........been suggested already...........several times..........ignored.

Unknown

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BobC

If it was a liquid sodium based reactor instead of a boiling water pressure cooker "bomb" it would be a good choice.

Bob

Abracadabra

wut? was going to post a mindblown gif but figured it wasn't even worth my effort trying to track one down

Harvey Ramer

Electric resistance heat. Way to practice what you preach.

BobC

Boiling water re4actors were developed for the navy and then enlarged for use in power stations. They are basically unsafe by design because the operate at high pressure, if you lose cooling it goes poof.

If you use a liquid sodium reactor it operates at normal pressure and does not need external water or huge pumps for cooling. This is because the fuel is in a liquid form, it can not melt down, it can not create hydrogen like solid fuel plants do - it was hydrogen that cause the explosions at Chernoble and Fukushima. They can be designed so they are walk away safe and can not go poof.

If you make it a liquid thorium reactor it has 90+% less waste that does not have to be safeguarded for thousands of years. The waste can not be used to make nuclear bombs, and you can use existing nuclear waste as fuel. It's the only rational way to deal with nuclear waste.

Industry hates the idea because it would kill their cash caw (solid pellet uranium fuel pellets). BTW we only use 3% of the energy in those fuel pellets, the other 97% is nuclear waste.

Bob

njtommy

This thread got to me sorry guys. Lol

Gordy

BobC said:

Boiling water re4actors were developed for the navy and then enlarged for use in power stations. They are basically unsafe by design because the operate at high pressure, if you lose cooling it goes poof.

If you use a liquid sodium reactor it operates at normal pressure and does not need external water or huge pumps for cooling. This is because the fuel is in a liquid form, it can not melt down, it can not create hydrogen like solid fuel plants do - it was hydrogen that cause the explosions at Chernoble and Fukushima. They can be designed so they are walk away safe and can not go poof.

If you make it a liquid thorium reactor it has 90+% less waste that does not have to be safeguarded for thousands of years. The waste can not be used to make nuclear bombs, and you can use existing nuclear waste as fuel. It's the only rational way to deal with nuclear waste.

Industry hates the idea because it would kill their cash caw (solid pellet uranium fuel pellets). BTW we only use 3% of the energy in those fuel pellets, the other 97% is nuclear waste.

Bob

What's the real kicker is the technology is not a recent development.........

BobC

That's right @Gordy , the oak ridge national laboratory had a molten salt reactor working for almost 5 years with no safety problems what so ever. They shut it down every Friday and restarted it every Monday, try doing that with a boiling water reactor.

That program was shut down by Nixon to give the research work to Stanford, but they only worked on the boiling water bombs. Had we done a little more research into the liquid salt reactor the country would be covered with reactors without the furor over nuclear waste and the possibility of that waste being used to build a bomb.

Tricky **** was the gift that keeps on giving.

Bob

ChrisJ

What's the type of reactor that if it looses cooling actually shuts down and it doesn't use control rods?

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I swear there was a type like this.

BobC

The liquid salt reactor works like that. If something goes wrong and nobody is in the control room the reactors fluid will drain out of the core and shut itself down. That is why this design is called walk away safe - no external action is required in the event of a problem.

They utilize a freeze plug, essentially a restriction in the outlet pipe with a fan on it. If that fan turns off because of a problem or the loss of power, the plug melts and the fuid drains out into a holding tank where it just sits.

We have had this technology for over 40 years but we walked away from it so some fat cats could make a bundle making solid fuel pellets that GUARANTEE 97% of the fuel will be long term nuclear waste.

When they finally figure out nuclear fusion we will be home free but I think that is a long way off. We could have a liquid fuel reactor up and working in a decade. They are much cheaper to build, much safer to operate, and they can use the nuclear waste we don't know what to do with FOR FUEL.

absolutely amazing,

Bob

Steamhead

Then we can start installing electric steam boilers.

Danny Scully

I love that no one has busted his chops on this yet, @AJinCT ...steam is hydronics!

ChrisJ

Danny Scully said:

I love that no one has busted his chops on this yet, @AJinCT ...steam is hydronics!

I'm always busting chops over that but most people ignore me.

ChrisJ

Regardless,

Steam always wins.

https://youtu.be/BeDLX9hzPoA?t=59s

Gordy

I wonder what the weight difference is between machines

Gordy

United Nations Agenda 21 anyone. How many know about this 351 page document?
http://whatisagenda21.net/agenda21.htm

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Steamhead

"everything will just be heat pumps"?

Where are you getting this? You need to start posting some source material to back up these outlandish claims. Otherwise, you're just being a troll, and doing a disservice to the rest of this community.

Since you have never posted anything of the kind, it's pretty obvious you're just trolling.

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Steamhead

AJinCT said:

It's pretty obvious......

That's not the same as posting actual data.

Rich_49

Gordy said:

United Nations Agenda 21 anyone. How many know about this 351 page document?
http://whatisagenda21.net/agenda21.htm

I usually avoid linking to stuff like this . It is refreshing however that someone else recognizes the game which we are involved in . Good for you Gordy , for being awake and realizing exactly what our value is .

Rich_49

AJinCT said:

Harvey Ramer, Unfortunately that's what they have. I wish the state would force them to install heat pumps, but they don't. One of the engineers at work tried telling me his baseboards were "100% efficient" one time and I just rolled my eyes. What a joke. Realistically I guess it could get close to 50% if you're generating with CCGT, but with nuclear fission, you're real lucky to break 32% when you include line losses.

BobC, Yes there are a bunch of advancements in nuclear technology that haven't seen the light of day. We also don't recycle our fuel like the French do, which is a shame.

Steamhead, why? At that point, everything will just be heat pumps. I guess if electricity is cheap enough, resistance could come back. But why use resistance to heat up water or make steam? Far less maintenance just to put resistance in the first place. I suppose it could be a transitionary crutch, but eventually everything would be heat pumps/resistance backup. MSHPs and ASHPs with resistance strip backup would then be the ultimate, since they would provide A/C too.

AJ ,

Could you tell us exactly how the French recycle their fuel and what type of fuel you are referencing ?

ChrisJ

Rich said:

AJinCT said:

Harvey Ramer, Unfortunately that's what they have. I wish the state would force them to install heat pumps, but they don't. One of the engineers at work tried telling me his baseboards were "100% efficient" one time and I just rolled my eyes. What a joke. Realistically I guess it could get close to 50% if you're generating with CCGT, but with nuclear fission, you're real lucky to break 32% when you include line losses.

BobC, Yes there are a bunch of advancements in nuclear technology that haven't seen the light of day. We also don't recycle our fuel like the French do, which is a shame.

Steamhead, why? At that point, everything will just be heat pumps. I guess if electricity is cheap enough, resistance could come back. But why use resistance to heat up water or make steam? Far less maintenance just to put resistance in the first place. I suppose it could be a transitionary crutch, but eventually everything would be heat pumps/resistance backup. MSHPs and ASHPs with resistance strip backup would then be the ultimate, since they would provide A/C too.

AJ ,

Could you tell us exactly how the French recycle their fuel and what type of fuel you are referencing ?

Dammit @Rich
The fire was almost out and you just sprayed Ether on it.

Rich_49

That's what I do ChrisJ , make people think . He'll no doubt further show how much he does not get it .

SWEI

AJinCT said:

Unless it's like <5 cents a kwh or something like that</p>

Light commercial users currently pay $0.406 per therm for NG here in NM. Even at five cents per kWH, you'd need an overall annual COP above 4 in order to compete with a mod/con.

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SWEI

Properly designed common-sense passive solar design here requires tiny amounts of supplementary heat. Some use none. Unfortunately, 99.999% of our housing stock is not passive solar, and over 95% of it is severely lacking from an energy standpoint.

Cleanly and efficiently burning the natural gas we have is the best thing we can do for the majority of clients. We're turning over 90% of the fuel into useful work, and leaving only a fraction of the carbon, mercury, sulfur, etc. in the air (and God knows what in the water and soil) that the PoCo does burning coal.

BobC

I think any light water reactor or boiling water reactor is a mistake because they use solid fuel and that is the path to all kinds of problems.

The key is to use liquid fuel in low pressure reactor, it can not melt down and does not need a pressure vessel or huge energy sucking pumps. Those two items wipe out a lot of complexity and cost.

Keep it simple and build on the lessons we learned at Oak Ridge in the 60's.

Bob

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R Mannino

On LI we burn natural gas and oil for electricity, so the heat pumps really consume natural gas and oil. Given the high cost of electricity per KWH make heat pumps not necessarily the least expensive option for heat.

hot_rod

R Mannino said:

On LI we burn natural gas and oil for electricity, so the heat pumps really consume natural gas and oil. Given the high cost of electricity per KWH make heat pumps not necessarily the least expensive option for heat.

Does Long Island still get 20% or more of it's power from the underwater cable from NJ or CT?

exqheat

Exhausting. All Over the map. An additional issue has to be exhaust from the flue. Envelope, heating source, piping, insulation, control, maintenance are all one pie. it is not about money. It is about education of building owners. It is about each building being a citizen to the environment. The owners have to take their custodial responsibilities more knowledgeably. We hear about solar and geo like they are the answer. When 50 years from now. No, we have solutions as a trade to reduce energy use and flue gasses. Let's be professional. Fix the buildings you have now. The trend will grow by your professional application of skills in all these areas.

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R Mannino

AJinCT said:

Hot Rod, yes, LI is stealing about 350MW through the Cross-Sound cable. Most of that is probably being generated in NH in the oil burner down there that's since been converted to Natural Gas IIRC. Not sure if they were smart and set it up as a CCGT, or if they just fired the existing boiler on gas. There is very little oil power generation left in the US, with the exception of extreme peak generators, and a few islands and other isolated places that are using diesel piston generators. I believe Martha's Vineyard now runs entirely off the mainland, it used to use diesel during summer peaks.

Stealing implies non payment, I doubt that's happening.

Good question HR I don't know but the building of new plants is on hold right now due to adequate power being available. So we are either using less or "stealing" more from NH according to AJ.

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