Why are energy efficiency standards so far behind the technology?

sunlight33

Three years ago when oil is over $100 a barrel propane costs $3 a gallon here. Now that oil is in the $30s it is still $3, whereas heating oil has dropped from close to $4 to $1.5 per gallon. Greed?

ChrisJ

So far all I've seen is the more efficient an item is, the more expensive it is to buy, repair and the shorter the life it has.

This goes for furnaces, dish washes, clothes washers and dryers, refrigerators, the list goes on and on. The only thing they seem to have really improved at all is cars, and that seems to be taking a downhill turn regarding reliability and longevity for all manufacturers.


What you claimed was "off topic" is exactly on topic. High efficiency appliances waste more energy in the long run. They cost more energy to manufacturer and they end up in a land fill much sooner.


Of course, as I pointed out and proved to you, modern refrigerators though they have a pitiful short life, actually aren't more efficient than pre-WWII refrigerators and most of them use far more energy due to defrost circuits, fans and size. But, you being so concerned about energy I'm sure you have a manual defrost, reasonable sized (5-8cuft) refrigerator in your house sipping as little energy as possible like I do.


Since you want new energy standards and want to force people to conserve perhaps that's one of the first things you should fight for. No refrigerators allowed over 10 cubic feet (half the size of the typical ones in the USA) allowed for sale in the country unless it's for a commercial kitchen, hotel etc. No ice makers through the door and no defrost heaters allowed as they are the biggest energy hogs in the appliance. I do have to mention, we have a UK member that told us a 7 cubic foot monitor top was way too big for him over in Great Britain and that refrigerators there were smaller.


If your response is going to be "No one will go for that, you can't force people to buy smaller refrigerators" then forget your efficiency standards on anything because you apparently can't force people to do anything.




I realize I'm just feeding the troll again, but whatever.

hot_rod

sunlight33 said:

Three years ago when oil is over $100 a barrel propane costs $3 a gallon here. Now that oil is in the $30s it is still $3, whereas heating oil has dropped from close to $4 to $1.5 per gallon. Greed?

LP seems to vary a lot more than other fuels, I paid $1.38 last week to fill my two tanks here in Missouri. This morning they at at $1.29. I'll bet the large ag customers are paying closer to a buck.

Bob Bona_4

I'm still at 1.69 for lp SW CT

sunlight33

Darn it! many LP providers in upstate NY are around $2 to 3. One place even went as far as saying "I will give a special offer for $3.05 per gallon!", it was the same two years ago!

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

So far all I've seen is the more efficient an item is, the more expensive it is to buy, repair and the shorter the life it has.

This goes for furnaces, dish washes, clothes washers and dryers, refrigerators, the list goes on and on. The only thing they seem to have really improved at all is cars, and that seems to be taking a downhill turn regarding reliability and longevity for all manufacturers.


What you claimed was "off topic" is exactly on topic. High efficiency appliances waste more energy in the long run. They cost more energy to manufacturer and they end up in a land fill much sooner.


Of course, as I pointed out and proved to you, modern refrigerators though they have a pitiful short life, actually aren't more efficient than pre-WWII refrigerators and most of them use far more energy due to defrost circuits, fans and size. But, you being so concerned about energy I'm sure you have a manual defrost, reasonable sized (5-8cuft) refrigerator in your house sipping as little energy as possible like I do.


Since you want new energy standards and want to force people to conserve perhaps that's one of the first things you should fight for. No refrigerators allowed over 10 cubic feet (half the size of the typical ones in the USA) allowed for sale in the country unless it's for a commercial kitchen, hotel etc. No ice makers through the door and no defrost heaters allowed as they are the biggest energy hogs in the appliance. I do have to mention, we have a UK member that told us a 7 cubic foot monitor top was way too big for him over in Great Britain and that refrigerators there were smaller.


If your response is going to be "No one will go for that, you can't force people to buy smaller refrigerators" then forget your efficiency standards on anything because you apparently can't force people to do anything.




I realize I'm just feeding the troll again, but whatever.

@ChrisJ

Just agree with what you are saying about product longevity. However stop, and think where our economy would be if we did not live in a throw away society.

ChrisJ

@Gordy

Not sure.
What I do know is everyone always says our country was at it's peak just out of WWII and we didn't have a throw away society then.

That, and this discussion isn't about our economy, it's about saving energy.

Regardless, I am 100% against a throw away society, that I'll admit right here and now. I have those discussions with my dad a lot, he likes throwing out stuff and getting 100% brand new, I don't.

R Mannino

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, You're assuming that equipment that can perform efficiently won't last. I would say that the standards being so far behind the technology are telling me that either the government regulators aren't with the program, or there are outside influences pushing back against common-sense efficiency regulations. I'd say it's probably the latter, but that just loops back to my original question. Who? Why?

I don't think most people realize how bad their houses are. The free energy audits in many states are certainly a first step. I like Germany's system of having the chimney sweep do a yearly efficiency test and the government shutting your heat off if you don't fix problems, but that would never fly in the US.

I'm not saying it won't last, I'm saying it costs more and may be more problematic with regard to service and maintenance. Simpler things tend to be less problematic, no? They usually cost less too.

Common sense a favorite topic of mine. Why can't we let the consumer decide what level of efficiency they want? If I want to drive around with 381 HP and get 14 mpg AND I can afford it why shouldn't I? Or I could choose a 2007 Civic and get 40 mpg if I so desire.

Building envelope improvements are low hanging fruit as far as I'm concerned and should always be done first before any HVAC equipment upgrades as they change equipment parameters.

As far as someone turning MY heating system off other than myself, you're right that will never fly.

BobC

I agree completely, you have to choose what part of the curve you can AFFORD. The most efficient system isn't affordable for a lot of people and the total cost of ownership comes into play as well.
People only buy what they can afford. Your much better off putting money into the building envelope than a 95% heating system because you get a lot more bang for your buck.

Bob

Unknown

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R Mannino

Comparing a Navien to a Weil Mc is like comparing a Yugo to a Chevy. Compare that Weil to something real like a TT, Veissmann or Bosch.

ChrisJ

@AJinCT

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/choosing-energy-efficient-refrigerator


Wrong.
America should be using small, or what you call "mini fridges" like the rest of the world.

You call them normal, Europe calls them a Tahoe and energy pigs.



From the above GBA website. Oh and, I love the last sentence.

Refrigerators in Europe
How big a refrigerator do you need? Most Americans are used to living with a refrigerator measuring anywhere from 20 to 26 cubic feet. When Americans visit European homes, however, they are often startled to discover that most Europeans are happy with refrigerators that are only half as big.
It’s hard to find up-to-date data on the average size of European refrigerators. One source, however, described the “average European fridge-freezer” as one with 215 liters [7.6 cu. ft.] of refrigerator space and 60 liters [2.1 cu. ft.] of freezer space — that is, an appliance with a total volume of only 9.7 cubic feet.
Anecdotal reports by Americans who are surprised at the small size of European refrigerators are common. Here are some examples from blogs written by Americans living in Europe:
“I've lived in Paris for about six months now, which is both long enough to get used to and appreciate a different way of life and also long enough for the novelty of certain differences to have completely worn off. One such difference between my life in Chicago and my life in Paris is my teeny-tiny fridge.”
“Refrigerators in Europe are similar, if not identical to the ones we all had in college.”

“Sure, there are exceptions, but in general, fridges [in Paris] are about half the size of an American fridge.”
So, here’s my bold suggestion of the week: the next time you buy a refrigerator, consider buying a small one. I’m an enthusiastic cook who enjoys preparing large home-cooked meals three times a day, and my family of four has lived happily with a 10-cubic-foot Sun Frost refrigerator freezer (an RF-12) for 20 years. It uses only 171 kWh per year.

Another option: you can always visit a local antique store and look for an old GE Monitor-Top. If you’re lucky, you may be able to buy a working model for $150 to $800.

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

@Gordy

Not sure.
What I do know is everyone always says our country was at it's peak just out of WWII and we didn't have a throw away society then.

That, and this discussion isn't about our economy, it's about saving energy.

Regardless, I am 100% against a throw away society, that I'll admit right here and now. I have those discussions with my dad a lot, he likes throwing out stuff and getting 100% brand new, I don't.

It's huge Chris. Think if everyone bought a product that lasted like the good old days. Like your monitor top. The reason we were at our peak post World War 2 is because we sacrificed during the depression, and through the war. There was no where to go but up.

Gordy

I can tell you using Europe is an umbrella statement. I have been to Italy a few times I can say that is not the case with refrigerators.

How ever Europeans do not feel the need to shop for the whole week, and have to store it. I see a more buy as needed. A trip to the market is an every other day routine. Freshness.

njtommy

@R Mannino
Weil Mclain has plenty of issues with their 90% plus boilers.

First generation ultra boilers had heat exchanger problems with rotting due to condensate build up on the right hand side. Now they have bit of a newer design with a funnel cone at the bottoms help clear away the condensate.

There down firing tube wall mounts like the Eco and wm97. Same design at TRiangle tube and the same manufacturer for it as well. The difference is the taper there heat exchanger at the bottoms. Also they had a big run of gaskets that would cause the spark ignitoror flame sensors to ground out and fail. Due to the foil the tape . Also they have the same draft inducer fans to. Which Weil Mclain will be changing very soon to a up dated model. Because of the fan blades falling apart just like triangle tubes.

All boiler manufacture problems. It's just matter of a good quality installation and how fast can you get the parts if you need them and don't stock them.

R Mannino

We were comparing the Naviens to a CI Weil.

I'm with you, any properly installed system will work and all boilers can potentially have issues.

I was trying to point out the apples to oranges comparison given by the OP.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

ChrisJ said:

@Gordy

Not sure.
What I do know is everyone always says our country was at it's peak just out of WWII and we didn't have a throw away society then.

That, and this discussion isn't about our economy, it's about saving energy.

Regardless, I am 100% against a throw away society, that I'll admit right here and now. I have those discussions with my dad a lot, he likes throwing out stuff and getting 100% brand new, I don't.

It's huge Chris. Think if everyone bought a product that lasted like the good old days. Like your monitor top. The reason we were at our peak post World War 2 is because we sacrificed during the depression, and through the war. There was no where to go but up.

I'll never be for a throw away society, give up.
We're filling the planet up with garbage and that's bad, real bad.

Gordy

Never said I was for a throw away society Chris. My statement is how industry thinks.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

Never said I was for a throw away society Chris. My statement is how industry thinks.

Agreed,

SWEI

Full cost accounting, please.

Bob Bona_4

AJ, we have 3- 100 lb bottles, there is no rental.

Unknown

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ChrisJ

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, The Navien is still a way more efficient boiler. Sure, Weil makes a good quality CI boiler, with a design that was obsolete years ago. It's like a '59 Caddy with the fins, minus the collector value.

ChrisJ, I have no interest in some ancient fridge. Next time I buy a fridge, I'll buy whatever has the highest energy efficiency ratings and is the size I want.

Well,

the government should enforce new energy standards that limit the size refrigerator you can buy. Anything over 10 cubic foot is wasteful in my opinion as is automatic defrost so the government should enforce those rules and stop wasteful people like you from making poor decisions and destroying our planet.

Anyone else agree?

BobC

The best modern fridge you can get n this country is probably the Sun Frost.

http://www.sunfrost.com/all_efficient_refrigerator_models.html

They are not cheap and they don't do auto defrost but they run with very little juice. If you want a fridge/freezer combo you have a choice of 12 or 16 cuft.

Bob

Mark Eatherton

ChrisJ said:

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, The Navien is still a way more efficient boiler. Sure, Weil makes a good quality CI boiler, with a design that was obsolete years ago. It's like a '59 Caddy with the fins, minus the collector value.

ChrisJ, I have no interest in some ancient fridge. Next time I buy a fridge, I'll buy whatever has the highest energy efficiency ratings and is the size I want.

Well,

the government should enforce new energy standards that limit the size refrigerator you can buy. Anything over 10 cubic foot is wasteful in my opinion as is automatic defrost so the government should enforce those rules and stop wasteful people like you from making poor decisions and destroying our planet.

Anyone else agree?

From the stand point of gasoline consumed getting to and from the grocery store, maybe overall, the carbon foot print connected to a smaller refrigerator isn't really saving all that much energy... Or at least that's what my son in law and daughter told me about their 2 year stint in Italy...

YMMV

R Mannino

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, The Navien is still a way more efficient boiler. Sure, Weil makes a good quality CI boiler, with a design that was obsolete years ago. It's like a '59 Caddy with the fins, minus the collector value.

ChrisJ, I have no interest in some ancient fridge. Next time I buy a fridge, I'll buy whatever has the highest energy efficiency ratings and is the size I want.

The 59 Caddy is a fine looking automobile I wouldn't mind being seen in that car. Buying something based solely on efficiency ratings as the only criteria doesn't seem prudent there are other factors that should be considered also.

ChrisJ

Mark Eatherton said:

ChrisJ said:

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, The Navien is still a way more efficient boiler. Sure, Weil makes a good quality CI boiler, with a design that was obsolete years ago. It's like a '59 Caddy with the fins, minus the collector value.

ChrisJ, I have no interest in some ancient fridge. Next time I buy a fridge, I'll buy whatever has the highest energy efficiency ratings and is the size I want.

Well,

the government should enforce new energy standards that limit the size refrigerator you can buy. Anything over 10 cubic foot is wasteful in my opinion as is automatic defrost so the government should enforce those rules and stop wasteful people like you from making poor decisions and destroying our planet.

Anyone else agree?

From the stand point of gasoline consumed getting to and from the grocery store, maybe overall, the carbon foot print connected to a smaller refrigerator isn't really saving all that much energy... Or at least that's what my son in law and daughter told me about their 2 year stint in Italy...

YMMV

Electric cars such as the Tesla should be mandatory as per government laws.

That fixes that problem as well.




On a serious note, we have a manual defrost chest freezer we keep meat, bread and other items in. It too, is far more efficient than any frost free machine. I also find it keeps food better than frost free because the temperature swings aren't as wide.

All joking aside, I'd never be without a quality vacuum sealer and a chest freezer. Our chest freezer is from around 2008.

BobC

Well insulated 12 cuft refrigerators with a top mount compressor and no auto defrost will use about 15 KWH per month.

The buyer has to decide if it's worth the money for that level of efficiency. Some may opt for it but many just can't afford it.

Bob

ChrisJ

BobC said:

Well insulated 12 cuft refrigerators with a top mount compressor and no auto defrost will use about 15 KWH per month.

The buyer has to decide if it's worth the money for that level of efficiency. Some may opt for it but mant just can't afford it.

Bob

Bob, we can't have that!
At least that's what the OP is claiming about HVAC systems. Apparently it cannot be left up for people to decide, we must force them.

BobC

@ChrisJ
Then they must be beaten into submission - so let it be said, so let it be done!

Bob

RJMCTAFO

ChrisJ, I have no interest in some ancient fridge. Next time I buy a fridge, I'll buy whatever has the highest energy efficiency ratings and is the size I want.

Oh the irony of this statement.

AJinCT
I have no interest in your doodad and gismo of a boiler that hangs on the wall. Or your heat pump that blows dust all over my house. I'll buy whatever boiler is the easiest and cheapest to service, lasts forever and it burns what it burns.

You see you've just answered your own question.

KC_Jones

I was waiting to see how long it took someone to comment on that.

SWEI

Full cost accounting would take care of the fridge too. Just price in what the fuel really costs and let people make up their own minds. Free markets larger than an acre in size need help...

hot_rod

Gordy said:

I can tell you using Europe is an umbrella statement. I have been to Italy a few times I can say that is not the case with refrigerators.

How ever Europeans do not feel the need to shop for the whole week, and have to store it. I see a more buy as needed. A trip to the market is an every other day routine. Freshness.

Exactly what I have noticed.

\We stay in the smaller villages when traveling in Italy.
People stop on the way home from work and pick up fresh bakery, produce, and meat almost every day. Trains are the more common mode of transportation. Towns smell of fresh baked goods early every morning.

In Heilderberg, Germany thousands of folks get off the trains, onto their bicycles and stop along the route home for the food.

It's rare to find a grocery store as we know them in Europe. And almost impossible to find ice in restaurants.

The dish washes and wash machines are about 1/2 sized in Germany and Italy also.

Gordy

Mark Eatherton said:

ChrisJ said:

AJinCT said:

R Mannino, The Navien is still a way more efficient boiler. Sure, Weil makes a good quality CI boiler, with a design that was obsolete years ago. It's like a '59 Caddy with the fins, minus the collector value.

ChrisJ, I have no interest in some ancient fridge. Next time I buy a fridge, I'll buy whatever has the highest energy efficiency ratings and is the size I want.

Well,

the government should enforce new energy standards that limit the size refrigerator you can buy. Anything over 10 cubic foot is wasteful in my opinion as is automatic defrost so the government should enforce those rules and stop wasteful people like you from making poor decisions and destroying our planet.

Anyone else agree?

From the stand point of gasoline consumed getting to and from the grocery store, maybe overall, the carbon foot print connected to a smaller refrigerator isn't really saving all that much energy... Or at least that's what my son in law and daughter told me about their 2 year stint in Italy...

YMMV

The public transportation system is highly utilized in Europe. At least in Italy. Bike, walk, bus, train, taxi etc. so most of the transportation system is either carbon friendly, or running anyway. However my comment is more to the cultural habits. What they refrigerate, and freeze as opposed to us.

If one looks in their refrigerator most items do not need refrigeration. All though we as Americans believe so. For instance beverages probably take up most refrigerator space. In Italy most beverages are served room temp. Iced only upon request.

Vegetables do not have to be refrigerated if used promptly, eggs do not need to be if used in a reasonable time frame. Most Cheeses do not have to be. So that leaves meats, and milk.

My point is it's habits in how we shop for groceries. Dictates,the needs for refrigeration. We got by for how long before the refrigerator, and freezer was invented?

Take @ChrisJ shot of the inside of his monitor top with water, and Hershey kisses. None of that needs refrigeration.

SWEI

Basements, anyone? Tomatoes, root vegetables, and numerous other comestibles are actually happier stored at 50°F than they are at 35°F.

Gordy

hot rod said:

Gordy said:

I can tell you using Europe is an umbrella statement. I have been to Italy a few times I can say that is not the case with refrigerators.

How ever Europeans do not feel the need to shop for the whole week, and have to store it. I see a more buy as needed. A trip to the market is an every other day routine. Freshness.

Exactly what I have noticed.

\We stay in the smaller villages when traveling in Italy.
People stop on the way home from work and pick up fresh bakery, produce, and meat almost every day. Trains are the more common mode of transportation. Towns smell of fresh baked goods early every morning.

In Heilderberg, Germany thousands of folks get off the trains, onto their bicycles and stop along the route home for the food.

It's rare to find a grocery store as we know them in Europe. And almost impossible to find ice in restaurants.

The dish washes and wash machines are about 1/2 sized in Germany and Italy also.

Totally agree @hot rod one of the things I miss most, and remember most is the smell of the markets in Italy. It permeates the air. Just as you say all true.

Gordy

SWEI said:

Basements, anyone? Tomatoes, root vegetables, and numerous other comestibles are actually happier stored at 50°F than they are at 35°F.

Gardens, canning, dehydration.

Fred

I have two brothers and a sister that live in Italy, along with their families. They have been there since the early 70's and the comments on here about there lifetyle is right on. The shop, at neighborhood shops/stores/ bakeries, for that day's meals on the day they intend to use the food they purchase. Even the milk is vacuum packages and shelf stable and kept in a cabinet until it is opened and it is packaged is pint size or smaller packaging so, when they open it, they pretty much use it. The refrigerators are 7 to 10 Cubic feet, for the most part and, as far as my family is concerned, it is used pretty much for leftovers from dinner. They shop at a bakery in the morning to get pastries and bread for the day. They don't eat nearly as much meat as we do but do et more sefoods and they don't store those. Buy it use it that day. They all for the most part drink their sodas warm, at dinner for the kids and wine for the adults. Most Italians hate air conditioning. They think it makes people sick and I have to tell you, when I visit, I can't stand the heat the heat and, at night and the mosquitos eat you alive. They use some little candle by the bed to keep the mosquetos away (Yea, right). It is a different culture in most of Europe.

Gordy

My Mom is from northern Italy, and I have 4 uncles in Italy they told me the reason no ice cold drinks, or iced beverages are served is because the government has determined it to cause problems with the digestives system. They have socialized health care.