Viessmann Disappointment

Rich_49

Sadly and apparently not Stephen . This thread I think shows that . There is a bit of difference of opinion amongst us contractors but that is to be expected . What one man will tolerate will repulse another .
I , as have you , have worked hard to build my brand and I insist and demand that whomever's product I install do the same , no matter the source of the request for information . I am not afraid that I will get exposed as something other than what I represented myself as , a professional . We all make mistakes and probably still will occasionally in the future . Responding and making it right it what separates those with integrity and those without . My mistakes are what made me what i am and have given me the knowledge to speak here among my peers . By the way , we have few peers as a collective . These mistakes and making them right at no expense to the end user , as taken from our host , were my tuition . our manufacturing and supply partners would do well to learn from these lessons .

Tinman

I think we may disagree on a SPECIFIC favorite brand, perhaps. But collectively, I think if we were to poll the contractors here doing primarily mod-con boilers that it would be very clear what our Top 5 or so would be.

Paul48

There are sections of electrical code, and plumbing code that go (far?) beyond public safety issues, and clearly cross into the domain of simply doing the job correctly. Inspectors see that these are adhered to daily. I know what your going to say.......in most cases the inspector doesn't even know what they are looking at. I contend, that is the problem. There is an opportunity to protect innocent folks from unscrupulous hacks, and it's not being taken advantage of. You don't have to certify all the contractors, if you have certified inspectors. The hacks will either toe-the-line, or be out of business, period.

Rich_49

Just a thought . While some manufacturers do not have time to or just think they don't need to answer a cal from an end user (customer) some others are doing this ,

http://blog.htproducts.com/blog/free-consultation-cash-back-0?utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=23487187&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--7iA0B8AVPP2wX8FWsJvWohMQ-Cov6z5ciTP3rmabxU13LY35V4KKpYcrdilcfN0rLLeQl0z68tus9LIKMVn7Zgic6jw&_hsmi=23487187

jonny88

@GW I don't see where you are coming from.I understand a company can't oversee every install but when a customer reaches out to them and gets no response I have a little issue with it.Thanks for the words @Rich and the info you posted really gives me confidence in their units.Nice to know they care about customers and not just sales.I won't give the name of the Veissmann rep and what he said but hopefully customer will get issues resolved .This is not an attack on Veissmann as I have never had s problem with using them.

Zman

The OP has posted very few details and remains aloof on the sequence of things and his interaction with the installer.
I don't see a legitimate complaint here.
How about some pictures of the defective install and an account of the interaction with the installer then the manufacture?

Rich_49

4 questions of the Op whom is still watching .

What was wrong with the vent piping ?

How was the mixing valve to the radiant piped wrong ?

Was there an assumption on your part that a permit would be filed thus an inspection performed by the AHJ ?

@Zman . I think that this discussion is not bashing a product but the lack of response from Veissmann . He has already told us that the contractor was unable to perform the job to his satisfaction which is not altogether hard to believe since we see this again and again at the site . How could he possibly give more of an account of the interaction between himself and the manufacturer when it is non existent save the fact that he called them and heard nothing in return ? Not much more of an account can be given due to the lack of interest shown by the manufacturer . I can safely say I would have called him to find out what the issue was for the simple fact that one bad install can negate my hard work and investment in building a brand . You know , the internet , HeatingHelp and all those places where I can be bashed for not doing what I SHOULD as a vendor .

Tinman

Rich - I don't think Carl is asking for more of an account between the OP and Viessmann. He's asking about specifics about what the contractor allegedly did incorrectly.
I could give you a list a mile long of things customers have told me I've done incorrectly. Like putting a pump on the supply, using black iron with copper on a hot water heating system, using Teflon tape with Teflon dope on the same threads, and on and on.
It's not wrong because a non-pro says it's wrong.

Tinman

Well, after reading it a second time...maybe he is : ). But, he's asking for a lot more too.

Rich_49

Unfortunately it seems I forgot how to count to 4 . This is exactly why I asked the OP the 3 questions Stephen . maybe he can give us a good explanation of what is wrong . That still does not excuse Veissmanns piss poor customer relations skills and / or policy .

jonny88

Guys I know the system is not functioning.The OP talked to someone I know whom I hold in high regard.He actually Veissmann on behalf of the OP whether and the OP might not even know this.I agree with online bashing and it can hurt us all.On this Stephen I agree with you 100%.To the OP a pic would go a long way.

Paul48

Now that's a "Horse of a different color". The installer left him with a non-functioning system? Not a system that is functioning poorly, or not up to unrealistic expectations of a homeowner.

Zman

Oh, I'm still here. To the people who realized my point and offered valued & positive input, thank you. Let me clarify, I had problems with an install and I reached out to viessmann via a phone call for assistance in finding a qualified professional to resolve my issues. I did not receive an adequate response from them. Even though they are not responsible for the install which I understand, I think they should be able to offer support on their product. Since this post, I am now in contact with them and I'm sure they will help resolve my issues. Thank you for your interest in the post.

Hmm,
I thought there was no response. What do you mean by "I did not receive an adequate response"?
Why don't you tell us the whole story?
Still nothing....

jonny88

Non functioning system or system functioning poorly interesting interpretation .functioning poorly my bad I should have clarified

Rich_49

Christ Z , I know you can read . At the start of this discussion he had not heard Boo from Veissmann and a rep did not show as arranged . Since that time he has had contact and is allowing time for whatever takes place to take place . he is not commenting apparently in an effort to let the process play out and then I'm sure eh will let us know how it worked out . This poor **** has made only a few comments and most of the discussion has involved us and our opinions of how we believe the manufacture , rep , wholesale , contractor , end user chain should be handled .

I am of the opinion that a vast majority of reps are just parasites that drive up cost in between the actual concerned parties and that manufacturers basically have no balls and don't want to piss off the parasites and lose potential points of sale .

So , how bout that crazy HTP offering to talk with consumers prior to a purchase or while in the decision making phase to determine what might be right for them and offering them some advice PRIOR to a POTENTIAL sale ? Support before purchase , yet some think HTP has no presence . Go figure .

Tinman

I'm beginning to think you're a big fan of HTP? No?

jonny88

There is another thread going on as Triangle Tube cold feet.Check out the OP 's last post.

JC49

Again, to the guys who have offered insight and REAL input to help me, I thank you. I listed problems I had with install in original post 4 pages back. Some have been resolved and some haven't. I still don't have the DHW running on priority where it should shut all zones down while DHW is being satisfied. Original installer isn't sure if it can be done. I've been told it can be done no problem elsewhere. I don't believe the coding is done correctly due to the numerous other rudimentary mistakes that were made throughout the install. I still have doubts the viessmann auto mixing valve is plumbed correctly. And i still have no permit paperwork over two months later. these are the problems i'm still dealing with. So at the end of the day i don't have a lot of confidence the system is operating to 100% of it's performance. I am awaiting viessmann and a second contractor at this point. I will update when I have more info. Thank you for your interest in this post and to the people who want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Zman

I'm sorry but I still have no idea what your installation looks like.
How can you be part of the solution with no idea what the problem is?
I have no opinion as I have no idea what the system looks like...

Rich_49

@JC49 .

At this point I too am of the opinion that you should show some pictures of the system . Another contractor may just cloud the whole deal , who knows what his capabilities are ? Maybe pictures ( usually do ) will help us to advise on problems and what to demand or have addressed by the original or a new contractor .

jonny88

So through the grapevine I heard rep showed up and showed all that was wrong with install.Everything running good now?Not really fair to come and disappear without giving a final result.

CMadatMe

Just want to comment on the rep not showing up back in Nov so the true facts on that point are on the table. The rep was with me that day on another job where we had a down boiler with no hot water. Was one of those you should be in and out in a hour jobs that turned out to be more involved then expected. The rep called this gentleman in front of me to explain that he would need to reschedule as we were on this job for 3-4 hours and this gentleman's job was another 2hrs away.

The rep did go to the job jonny88. The unsolved issues are not Viessmann product related but they continue to work with the homeowner in helping him resolve his issues.

Zman

@JC49
Kind of a small world eh?
Any chance you are going to post the outcome?

CMadatMe

ZMan the issues at hand are minor that do need to be addressed. As for the overheating the issue is two fold. This was an existing radiant system, clips, no plates. Yes initially mixing valve was installed wrong. That was addressed and fixed.

Contractor set the curve based on the existing insulation floor value, etc and noted to the homeowner that the heating curve may have to be adjusted. It's been 50-60 out and as you know and most contractors that trying to set a curve under those conditions can be tricky.

The other dynamic that changed is the homeowner had someone come in and install bubble wrap to maintain the air gap then foam insulate under the floor changing the dynamic. Yes the curve needs to be adjusted. It's a single zone radiant running constant circ.

One thing that I've learned in 26 years of doing radiant and setting heating curves is that every person has there own comfort level and patience in getting the heating curve set for their comfort and the room/zones dynamics can take up to a full heating season.

That's where the homeowner themselves can help out by learning about how to operate their equipment from a control standpoint, knowing their limitations and making the simple adjusts in the curves themselves.

GW

ahhh one more item added to my "list of things not to get jammed on"; existing radiant floor heating settings.

We had this recently- boiler change out with a cheapo fixed-mix installation done back in the hay day. Customer emailed and said the floor wasn't satisfying stat- we showed up and showed her how to adjust the mixer. And we said, "too hot, not good for your floors, too cool, well you already know about that".

BUT if you install the thing wrong and then the settings are off- wow you're off to a bad start.

Zman

Chris said:

ZMan the issues at hand are minor that do need to be addressed. As for the overheating the issue is two fold. This was an existing radiant system, clips, no plates. Yes initially mixing valve was installed wrong. That was addressed and fixed.

Contractor set the curve based on the existing insulation floor value, etc and noted to the homeowner that the heating curve may have to be adjusted. It's been 50-60 out and as you know and most contractors that trying to set a curve under those conditions can be tricky.

The other dynamic that changed is the homeowner had someone come in and install bubble wrap to maintain the air gap then foam insulate under the floor changing the dynamic. Yes the curve needs to be adjusted. It's a single zone radiant running constant circ.

One thing that I've learned in 26 years of doing radiant and setting heating curves is that every person has there own comfort level and patience in getting the heating curve set for their comfort and the room/zones dynamics can take up to a full heating season.

That's where the homeowner themselves can help out by learning about how to operate their equipment from a control standpoint, knowing their limitations and making the simple adjusts in the curves themselves.

Chris,
Thanks for following up on this.
My point from the beginning has been that the OP never wanted any "Heating Help".
He never provided any real details of the problem and misrepresented his communications with the manufacture.
He was using the internet to get the attention of the manufacture (who's attention he already had, just not fast enough) to help get the installer to finish the job.
Good to here it was resolved, I just think the OP went about it in a way that was not fair to the manufacture.
Carl

hot_rod

Chris,
Thanks for following up on this.
My point from the beginning has been that the OP never wanted any "Heating Help".
He never provided any real details of the problem and misrepresented his communications with the manufacture.
He was using the internet to get the attention of the manufacture (who's attention he already had, just not fast enough) to help get the installer to finish the job.
Good to here it was resolved, I just think the OP went about it in a way that was not fair to the manufacture.
Carl

I agree Carl, and it;s not the first time it has happened.

4Johnpipe

This seems to be a problem with just about every manufacturer...They make equipment and sell it...The assumption is the installers have a clue...Huge assumption. I have been out to an HTP job as a rep for the rep...The customer had the "same part fixed twice". her first words to me were I hope they will send a new boiler this part broke twice already. Then I turn the corner into the boiler room and see a poorly installed system.
Now I am not in the habit of bashing anyone's work...we have all been in the situation of a "first time install" With kit gloves we worked with the home owner and the contractor was willing to learn the proper way to pipe primary secondary and with some guidance it was resolved. Good thing is the homeowner has a changed attitude towards the product and we have another educated installer out in the world....
More of this needs to take place immediately if not sooner...

4Johnpipe

I agree Hatt and they have pictures too...somehow that seems to go by the wayside...

hot_rod

This seems to be a problem with just about every manufacturer...They make equipment and sell it...The assumption is the installers have a clue...Huge assumption.

But keep in mind John, many manufacturers spend hundreds of thousands of dollars every year taking training to the reps, wholesalers, and contractors. Anywhere and everywhere it is requested.

If there are un-educated and incompetent installers out there, and there are, it's their own fault. Training is just a click away, no excuses.

4Johnpipe

Yes Hot Rod was not my intent to blame the manufacturers it was just an observation with the available "trained installers" out there...We are fortunate in having some great manufacturers reps and the training from the manufacturers is made readily available in my neck of the woods and it still seems like pulling teeth to get a full class!
Was also hinting at those of us well versed may find benefit in offering our current knowledge when the situations arise...
I know it's a pain and not always directly profitable...if we look further down the road it may be that it is priceless to not do so...

CMadatMe

At some point and not specific to this particular job, contractors need to accept the responsibility to train themselves and their employees. You don't even have to attend a mfg training facility these days for training. Caleffi, Taco and many others offer tons of online training in all aspects hydronics from piping, boilers, application to controls. Putting it on the mfgs as their responsibility is hogwash in my opinion.

The real issue is you have contractors out there that as long as the customer is writing the check and telling them what they want they'll do anything for a buck. Homeowners own some of that blame as well because they don't do their diligence in asking for references and following up on them. They just see in many situations the cheapest price.

GW

"Homeowners own some of that blame as well because they don't do their diligence in asking for references and following up on them. They just see in many situations the cheapest price. "

You can say that again- some roll the dice, thinking-- "That guy sure sounded like he knew his stuff, but i sure as heck am not going to pay an extra $$$$ to hook up a stupid boiler, what a rip-off, who does he think i am, and, does he think he's a doctor or what??"

It's going to be a while folks, our American consumer mindset and high efficiency heating systems are not quite on the same playing field yet. Some people get it of course, but most do not.

On a different note, I kinda wonder why all manufactures don't have a dealer locator on their web site. Back in 2003 i asked the then-president of Viessmann US why Viessmann didn't have this on their web site and he cited potential liability. I know I'm just a blue collar guy, but why can the smart people figure out a way to write a simple disclaimer?? All of the HVAC manufactures have it, and I know some boiler manufactures have it (I am on several locator listings) It just stumps me.

That way when Mr and Mrs Home Owner hire a goon, the people up top can say, "yes I'm sorry to hear your system isn't working to your expectations, if you go to www.so and so, you will find some competent contractors in you area, have a nice day."

ChrisJ

Perhaps some homeowners, but not all.
I had what looked like a respectable contractor lie to me and damn near kill me and my family because he didn't do his job. I even specifically asked him if he could check the draft because I didn't trust it. I guess that would've required too much effort because it certainly wasn't drafting.

Many homeowners take the cheap route, then again, so do many professionals when it comes to materials.

What I don't understand is when someone hires a "licensed professional" why are they not guaranteed someone that will at least do the job properly? And this being the case, what's the point in a license? How many times do we see steamers on here that are piped completely wrong, sometimes even dangerous by a licensed contractor who then fights the homeowner and refuses to fix his work that he had no business doing in the first place?

Sorry for the rant, but blaming homeowners for hiring a "licensed professional" that couldn't do their job seems like it's pushing it to me.

How do you know the highest priced contractor won't do the job wrong and the cheapest wouldn't do it right?


All of that said, I agree with everyone, this had nothing to do with Viessmann and it wasn't their responsibility.

CMadatMe

A license in my opinion doesn't mean someone is qualified in a particular field so to speak. You wouldn't go to a real estate attorney for a criminal or divorce case or your family doctor for ortho surgery. But those professions have ethical guidelines they must meet. There are no mandated ethics or association monitoring in our industry. Ethics are at the mercy of each individual business.

ChrisJ

Chris said:

A license in my opinion doesn't mean someone is qualified in a particular field so to speak. You wouldn't go to a real estate attorney for a criminal or divorce case or your family doctor for ortho surgery. But those professions have ethical guidelines they must meet. There are no mandated ethics or association monitoring in our industry. Ethics are at the mercy of each individual business.

So how is a homeowner supposed to find a good contractor to work on their heating system?

nicholas bonham-carter

Lack of professional training....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35131170

It's an international problem.--NBC

CMadatMe

ChrisJ said:

Chris said:

A license in my opinion doesn't mean someone is qualified in a particular field so to speak. You wouldn't go to a real estate attorney for a criminal or divorce case or your family doctor for ortho surgery. But those professions have ethical guidelines they must meet. There are no mandated ethics or association monitoring in our industry. Ethics are at the mercy of each individual business.

So how is a homeowner supposed to find a good contractor to work on their heating system?

Ask for references and make sure those references are for the same exact job that you are doing. A general reference isn't giving you feedback on what a particular service a contractor is offering you. Because he put Mr Smiths Gas Water Heater in and did a great job doesn't necessarily mean he installs a high efficiency boiler correctly.

GW

These recent comments (pertaining to "qualified contractor") are running with an assumption the same installer is on the job; how many hvac/plumbing companies have tiered staffing (sales force, install crew, services crew, so on and so forth)? These larger companies can be the problem as much as the little guy.

My opinion is the manufacturers should list competent contractors on their web sites. The reps know the goons from the guys that have a clue, and not to share that info with the public seems odd.

I was at a training recently and the rep was sharing a horror story about some boilers not being properly converted to LP. It's really sad what's going on out there. And, there is no quick answer to the problem. The trades get a back seat to the college-educated fields, which is a bit of a joke. Society will learn its lesson, but how long that will take is anyone's guess.

hot_rod

4Johnpipe said:

Yes Hot Rod was not my intent to blame the manufacturers it was just an observation with the available "trained installers" out there...We are fortunate in having some great manufacturers reps and the training from the manufacturers is made readily available in my neck of the woods and it still seems like pulling teeth to get a full class!
Was also hinting at those of us well versed may find benefit in offering our current knowledge when the situations arise...
I know it's a pain and not always directly profitable...if we look further down the road it may be that it is priceless to not do so...

We have been fortunate to get very good attendence numbers at our classes. I credit our regional reps and the wholesalers that sponsor the class with getting a room full of industry folks. They relentlessly e-mail, text, call, stop by offices and jobsites, whatever it takes to remind folks of the class.

I appreciate each and everyone that take time, often billable time from their day to show up, thanks to all.

Online training via Go To Meeting is really taking hold, we regularly see 200- 400 attendee at the monthly webinars, and many more views at the archive.
Manufacturers need to find and embrace the training formats that the customers are moving towards.
Quality tech journals, like Idronics, are still a top requested training product, and an excellent shelf life.


But the installers that most need some training, the ones that cause some much customer frustration willingly or not, rarely show up, or tune in, it's usually the top notch companies and installers that take the time to attend.