Viessmann Disappointment

JC49

After months and months of research on Mod-Con LPG fired boilers, I found myself between IBC and Viessmann as my final choice to replace the boiler in my house. I turned away from IBC due to the lack of exposure in northeast, and living in Putnam county, NY i really saw no support for the IBC product or any contractor that had any experience with them. This left me with Viessmann as my boiler of choice. The research I did led me to the Vitocrossal 300 CU3A. It had great reviews and fit my application well. I looked at Viessmann technology and was very impressed, so i went ahead and looked for contractors to perform the install for me. I ended up using a company called Perry heating cooling and plumbing in cornwall, new york. http://perryphc.com The owner claimed to have 20 + years working with viessmann boilers and seemed to know the product well. claimed to be one of the first contractors in area to install viessmann boilers. Well it turned out this was the furthest thing from the truth. The install was one problem after the other, the vent pipes were installed wrong, there was no permit filed for the job, boiler was programmed wrong, 3 way mixing valve was piped wrong to radiant, set point was un-reliable for DHW, And there is not a full priority for DHW production. All basic mistakes that an installer should be able to handle.
The sad thing is that I took me the customer to find and point out all of these mistakes, they left the job and told me it was ok and i was left on my own to find all of these problems by trial and error. And it's still not right two months later! Needless to say after spending good money for a high end boiler I was angry and disappointed. So I called Viessmann in rhode island to hopefully get some guidance on how to handle my problem and get someone who knows what they are doing. I left multiple messages with John Babbit head of operations who never called me back and spoke with the viessmann regional manager who doesn't seem to have time for me. So I am left disappointed in Viessmann for not having the time to make sure their end users are being taken care of and have their product operating correctly. I also have a problem with the fact that I can't file a complaint with them against this contractor who shouldn't be installing their boilers. But they don't seem to care, and that too is sad.
So I am left hiring a second contractor to correct the install and make sure it is running correctly. It will end up costing me more money and aggravation than the project should of but I won't rest until it is 100% right. I still believe I bought a top notch boiler, i did not however buy a top notch install, and viessmann does not provide top notch support to the end user. I attended the open house in september at viessmann and they are preaching growth in the us. the us has the market for them to expand, but this is not how you expand.
My only hope is that someone else doesn't go through what i did, there has to be a better way. you shouldn't buy such a high quality product with a great reputation and not have support, and allow hack installers that are out there falsely advertising they are supposed experts because they put a viessmann decal on the truck...
We can do better than this....

NYplumber

You do have a top notch boiler, however the contractor installing it incorrectly (assuming your right), has nothing to do with Viessmann. They can not control who installs their boilers, nor can any manufacture. If they had to certify each installer, the cost for their boiler would be astronomical and you most likely would not have installed it.
I cant answer for their lack of response, however they may have chosen to divert since they cant be of help other then to recommend a competent installer. Had you called with a broken boiler, they would return your call in a timely fashion. They have always been there for my company.
We don't discuss pricing on the wall however I would be willing to bet the installer was priced according to his workmanship assuming all holds true. You did the research on the equipment however you did not do the research on the installer. I am willing to bet you got multiple quotes on the job and went with the budget installer.

Just my 2cents

Tinman

@JC49 - I think its unfair to blame Viessmann for a contractor's mistakes, and the biggest mistake they made is not correcting their original mistakes.

The programming errors are minor and take minutes to correct.

The lack of a permit being pulled is both on the contractor and the homeowner in my opinion.

IF ...the mixing valve and vent pipe were installed incorrectly, that's just sad. There should be some sort of oversight and quality control on all installations, whether it be a highly qualified lead installer or the owner of the company signing off on it.

Viessmann is world class.

Paul48

Once he hired the "professional", every aspect of that job became the professionals responsibility. If the homeowner must pull the permit, the professional should have made that clear to the homeowner, and work should not have proceeded until the permit was in place. He is the victim.

JC49

Thank you for feedback, it was not the budget job. I had a hard time getting quotes to install a viessmann in my area with a contractor that was close enough to be licensed and able to perform future service. I do understand that this is not viessmann's fault. However I think a returned phone call is not much to ask. Overall satisfaction with product and installation should be of some interest to them, that's all I'm getting at.

RobG

I understand that you are frustrated as you should be. This is not a forum however to come to bash a manufacturer. Viesmann holds regular training classes for their products however going to one training class does not an expert make. Caveat emptor.

Rich_49

Rob ,
Veissmanns response or lack thereof is unacceptable . Are you kidding me , not a place to bash a manufacturer ? This is or so I thought a place to voice one's opinion and make others aware of possible issues so they could make informed decisions as to whom they want to do business with . we beat the s%*t out of AO Smith awhile back , or was that only allowed because one of our regulars took issue with the service he received . How close are you to D.C because you sure sound like an inside the beltway idiot sometimes . Someone else posted recently about potential issues with Energy Kinetics , the owner of the company responded and i am sure that issue is being addressed in house . This is how the world is supposed to work in case you were not aware . This is exactly what this forum is for along with many other things .

I am also quite sure that as moderator Dan is quite capable of performing that job himself . Offer your opinions and advice where it is warranted . Censure is never the right approach to the free flow of ideas and opinions and yours is not the only one that matters . Don't bother to respond with some snarky comment either .

Yours truly .

Tinman

Pulling permits - I've yet to meet/see an inspector who has any clue as to what I do or have done. Typically, the inspection is me explaining to him how the system works and how TRV's and balancing valves and ECM pumps work. I'm fine with that because most of them are really cool about it. BUT, if they have the power to collect money for a permit and the power to stop work for whatever reason they choose, they really ought to have at least a marginal understanding of modern hydronic heating.

I doubt an inspector would have made much of a difference on the OP's job.

GW

JC, did you speak with the local Viessmann rep? That's what the rep is there for. The rep knows the pros and knows the goons. RI had no clue which contractors are which, it's not their role. Yes maybe they should have returned your call.

It's a different age and sadly many people have no idea the world up and changed. A memo was not sent out. Up till 15 or 20 years ago, a knuckleheaded bafoon could successfully make a heating system work.

Some plumbers can't install a high tech boiler like Viessmann if they were paid. Some hvac dudes can not deal with piping especially mixing valves. All trades people have their wheel house, what they are good at ( well that was a broad stroke), and then they do the stuff when times are tight. You know, Learn On The Fly.

The days of homeowners complaining they hired the wrong guy...those days are coming to an end quickly. Why treat heating systems like a loaf of bread? It's an item that must be professionally installed. Why not find the best heating gup in your community and install what THAT guy is familiar with? I fear your intentions were correct but the order was backwards. Hire the pro, and let him stand proud behind his work.

If the guy that installed the system is a pro, he would stand behind his work. If he's a goon, he will run and make you chase him.

Best of luck

Gary

lchmb

an inspector may not make a difference for piping issue's but if the installer failed to pull the proper permits, one would think the authority having jurisdiction would be interested in this... My next question would be, does your contract state that the unit will be installed to code and to manufacturer specs? If so, take them to court for breach of contract..

jonny88

Correct me if I am wrong but I might have heard about your problem from someone I know.I think you did reach out to a rep and he failed to show.@Rich I agree 100% with you here.And yes A.O.Smith got their asses reamed on this site not so long ago.Looks like home owner did everything in his power to do the right thing.Very sad and unfortunate that the installer won't go out of his way to get a rep down to fix his mess after all he has 20 yrs installing Veissmann surely he must know someone ??
Please keep us updated .

hot_rod

Rich said:

Rob ,
Veissmanns response or lack thereof is unacceptable . Are you kidding me , not a place to bash a manufacturer ? This is or so I thought a place to voice one's opinion and make others aware of possible issues so they could make informed decisions as to whom they want to do business with . we beat the s%*t out of AO Smith awhile back , or was that only allowed because one of our regulars took issue with the service he received . How close are you to D.C because you sure sound like an inside the beltway idiot sometimes . Someone else posted recently about potential issues with Energy Kinetics , the owner of the company responded and i am sure that issue is being addressed in house . This is how the world is supposed to work in case you were not aware . This is exactly what this forum is for along with many other things .

I am also quite sure that as moderator Dan is quite capable of performing that job himself . Offer your opinions and advice where it is warranted . Censure is never the right approach to the free flow of ideas and opinions and yours is not the only one that matters . Don't bother to respond with some snarky comment either .

Yours truly .

I'm with Rich on this one, also.

Viessmann once kept a tight rein on who sold and installed their product and they did a fine job training installers, reps, and dealers. They also provide hundreds of pages of I&O and start up manuals.
No excuses for basic installation error if in fact that is the case.
Or lack of a returned phone call?

JC49

Hatterasguy said:

GW said:

Why not find the best heating gup in your community and install what THAT guy is familiar with?

Should he look up "best heating guy in Mytown" on the internet?

Or should he ask his neighbor, who is obviously well qualified to determine a proper "heating guy"?

Or should he ask his Father, who obviously has more experience than he does and would be qualified to provide the "best heating guy"?

Or should he just get the biggest and most costly "heating guy" from the biggest company in town who, obviously would provide the best install?

This is an excellent point, It was very difficult to find installers in my area that would come to give me a quote and install a viessmann. A lot of contractos wanted to sell me the boiler they wanted to use. and when I heard names like peerless and weil mclain. I wasn't interested.

Bob Bona_4

Couldn't have said it better.

GW

Hat, such a good collection of rhetorical questions. Neither question has a worthwhile answer. With all of the information at one's fingertips these days, the excuse list is shrinking quickly.

LIke you said, he wedded himself to a brand first then went looking for a contractor.

I've installed over 100 Viessmann wall hung boilers, and consider myself good at control strategies. It's not a sysyem the beginners should be experimenting with on a good paying customer.

Heck, most heating contractors can't even navigate a Buderus 2107 in my area, let alone utilize a BFU room sensor properly.

I feel badly for the op's plite, it stinks. I'd love to hear the contractors side of the story. I've been ripped by homeowners before with less than accurate accounts of what actually happened.

Gary

Tinman

If I don't know something, I say I don't know.

If I've never used a particular boiler or component, I say this is the first time for me.

I've never designed or installed a solar or geothermal job. When I do, I'll lean heavily on people I know who have and potential customers who don't know me will go elsewhere and I wouldn't blame them. People who do know me would most likely still insist on me doing the job.

And on top of that, I don't let customers dictate to me what I am going to use or not going to use. It doesn't mean I'm inflexible. I've done my homework and I'm the one who is going to be married to that system for a long time. I have to be comfortable with it and support it to the best of my abilities.

Also, my truck is only so big for installation and replacement parts.

90% of my boiler sales right now are one particular make and model.

hot_rod

GW said:

Hat, such a good collection of rhetorical questions. Neither question has a worthwhile answer. With all of the information at one's fingertips these days, the excuse list is shrinking quickly.



LIke you said, he wedded himself to a brand first then went looking for a contractor.



I've installed over 100 Viessmann wall hung boilers, and consider myself good at control strategies. It's not a sysyem the beginners should be experimenting with on a good paying customer.



Heck, most heating contractors can't even navigate a Buderus 2107 in my area, let alone utilize a BFU room sensor properly.



I feel badly for the op's plite, it stinks. I'd love to hear the contractors side of the story. I've been ripped by homeowners before with less than accurate accounts of what actually happened.



Gary

Excellent point Gary, there are usually several sides to a story.

RobG

GW said:

I feel badly for the op's plite, it stinks. I'd love to hear the contractors side of the story. I've been ripped by homeowners before with less than accurate accounts of what actually happened.



Gary

Absolutely!

GW

Hat said "Your ongoing suggestions that the HO should somehow be capable of accomplishing this task are simply wishful thinking. "

It comforts me to know that the people who spend their hard earned money on my company do so by sheer luck and happenstance

Harvey Ramer

The majority of American consumers buy the sizzle hoping for a decent steak.

GW

Harvey, so true but buying a steak hasn't changed much in the last several centuries, has it? Buying a heating system is a different animal, no longer can you simply expect good performance if you're buying from an unknown, un-vetted contractor. But a vast majority of American consumers done not know this fact. It's sad and some day that will change.

I am sure Hat and I are on the same page, just saying it differently.

RobG

Hatterasguy said:

RobG said:

I understand that you are frustrated as you should be. This is not a forum however to come to bash a manufacturer. Viesmann holds regular training classes for their products however going to one training class does not an expert make. Caveat emptor.

RobG said:

Just poor customer service / support in my opinion. If it had been handled quickly and efficiently A.O. would still have a customer. If their own service people and reps can't get it figured out ASAP, it's time to step up and replace it. John's customer holds him responsible and they should jump through hoops to get the problem taken care of. JMHO

How is it acceptable to bash AO Smith but not acceptable to bash Viessmann?

A bit two faced..............don't you think?

The difference is that in the AO Smith post it was the contractor going out of his way to fix a problematic product for a client, a contractor who probably buys a couple of hundred a year.

In the OP's case he was lucky to even get a human on the phone from Viessmann. That is what reps are for, to buffer the HO's from the manufacturer. The rep though will only wish to speak with a licensed, trained contractor. It's how the industry works.

There is nothing the manufacturer or rep can do to correct a poor install except to say it's all in the manual, anything more and liability comes into play.

Harvey Ramer

I didn't mean "steak" literally. Consumers buy what sounds to them like the best deal.

It's a tough thing for sure. All each of us can do is to strive to provide impeccable service and keep our customers happy and warm.

To the original poster. Don't feel like you have been singled out by Veismann or their Reps. I have had quite a few Reps promising to get me information or other things but they never got back. Some of them just can't be bothered with anything that isn't going to make a big sale this week. It's not the right way to be but that's how it is. I really hate it, but with some people, the only way to get their attention is to make a lot of noise and keep making it until they make things right.

hot_rod

RobG said:

Hatterasguy said:

RobG said:

I understand that you are frustrated as you should be. This is not a forum however to come to bash a manufacturer. Viesmann holds regular training classes for their products however going to one training class does not an expert make. Caveat emptor.

RobG said:

Just poor customer service / support in my opinion. If it had been handled quickly and efficiently A.O. would still have a customer. If their own service people and reps can't get it figured out ASAP, it's time to step up and replace it. John's customer holds him responsible and they should jump through hoops to get the problem taken care of. JMHO

How is it acceptable to bash AO Smith but not acceptable to bash Viessmann?

A bit two faced..............don't you think?

The difference is that in the AO Smith post it was the contractor going out of his way to fix a problematic product for a client, a contractor who probably buys a couple of hundred a year.

In the OP's case he was lucky to even get a human on the phone from Viessmann. That is what reps are for, to buffer the HO's from the manufacturer. The rep though will only wish to speak with a licensed, trained contractor. It's how the industry works.

There is nothing the manufacturer or rep can do to correct a poor install except to say it's all in the manual, anything more and liability comes into play.

This chain of distribution and support has changed a bit. Typically the installer would deal with the wholesaler, the wholesaler with the rep, and the rep with the manufacturer.

Online and box store sales of pumps and boilers has changed that model somewhat. For support the buyer at a box store has the non-existent apron wearing dude or gal, or the factory support. You lose the knowledge base and support of the wholesalers and reps in this model.

Many, but not all the times the reps and wholesalers have the most years of hands on support and product experience. They see what works and what fails in an area. The box stores just give you a replacement when you return a product regardless if the failure is operator error, not much motivation to learn how to support a complicated product.

Also the challenge of supply houses selling technical products over the counter to the public. While some DIYers are competent, what % can actually wield a VOM, torch and combustion analyzer?

GW

Hot Rod, how many times do you hear the heating contractor brought the vendor out to the job to set up the boiler? Especially nat to LP? I did this ONCE in the last since the advent of high efficiency, and the local guy got stumped too and had to call the factory (lesson learned, it was a silly glitch).

jonny88

Rob the installer has 20 yrs working with Veissmann.I think it's a load of b/s that they won't answer him or customer.After 20 yrs you build a relationship.The home owner deserves the same respect from manufacturer as does the a.o.smith customer.Difference is because who he is A O Smith got a lot of calls from people on this site after his problem in the restaurant .Nobody knows everything but only a fool will not look for advice.
To the OP has the first installer responded yet.

gennady

Viessmann is my boiler of choice for hot water heating. Most logical and reliable boiler on the market. Excellent attention to details and accessibility. And yet, most of our jobs come from fixing bad installations. It never stops to amaze me an extent of how badly boiler can be installed. I think topic starter must accept part of the blame for his own mistake in picking qualified installer and stop blaming manufacturer. Yes, there will be money spent for fixing installation, and probably, way more then he might imagine. Good luck.

Tinman

Hat - "Always" - I wholeheartedly disagree. I'm the sole salesperson of my company right now but I'm mostly a skilled craftsman. We have plenty of work and I go up against strictly sales people every day who offer their services, typically, much cheaper than I do.

SWEI

We have working relationships with the reps for every major product line I can think of that we install.

Wholesalers seem busy these days moving boxes and dealing with corporate directives, plans, compliance etc. I certainly don't expect them to design or troubleshoot systems -- yikes.

Tinman

I don't know? If I'm a good salesman, I'm as atypical as they come. Not once, never, have I asked for the sale. I never want to be that guy.

hot_rod

Stephen Minnich said:

I don't know? If I'm a good salesman, I'm as atypical as they come. Not once, never, have I asked for the sale. I never want to be that guy.

Nothing happens until a sale is made, period.

Nobody in the entire chain makes a dollar if you get a no from the customer.

Somehow Stephen you are a much better salesperson than you believe yourself to be.

Listening to Richard T up above, if 99% of your market is forced air, and you are making a living in hydronics, you ARE a good salesperson.

There are many styles of sales, presenting the facts, your systems features and benefits, and then not talking is a powerful sales skill.

Tinman

Yeah that sounds a little familiar.

wcs5050

Just saw the Vitocrossal in the viessman truck. Pretty sure the model is brand new this year. Nice boiler. All set up to pipe like a conventional boiler with no added exterior pri/sec. Easy burner cleaning. Control understands gas BTU density/cubic foot fluctuations and adjusts valve for better burn. Looks hard to screw up.

Original post sounds like a sad story of poor execution by uninformed installers, lack of control setup, and poor follow through. (as mentioned)
Many tradesmen should attempt a little more integrity. It makes the rest us who call back, and do our research look bad... nevermind finishing the job 100% even when it starts dipping into the profit margin.

Zman

I really think the owner is barking up the wrong tree.
Is Viessmann guilty of not following up on a complaint? Sure, I guess so..
Keep in mind, there is nothing wrong with the product.

If you hired a company to install an appliance for you and they damaged it or installed it incorrectly would you be calling the president of Maytag, leave them a voicemail and complain that they did not call you back?

Where is the installer in all this?

The OP has an issue with a contractor that they hired.
Rather than hold the installer accountable he is blaming the manufacture who has done nothing wrong other than selling boiler to installers just like every other manufacture.

Why isn't the post titled "Perry Disappointment"?

Sorry, I just don't get it...

Paul48

In his original post, there is a link to the installers web site. It's a 90 yr old company, and here is what they say......

We Specialize in High Efficiency Boilers from Viessmann. This is our preferred brand because of their continued commitment to unsurpassed quality and efficiency standards. If you pay for quality now you don't pay for problems and higher fuel use later. Call us today at -------------- to find out why a Viessmann is right for you.

NYplumber

@Zman your on the mark. He should be talking to the BBB. If he paid with a credit card, maybe they can help him get a refund or the work done right. He probably got what he paid for. Regardless this has nothing to do with viessmann.

@Hatterasguy this is different then getting a ford from a ford dealer. This is blaming ford for a mistake made by jiffylube. (Nothing specific to those brands, just used as an example.)

Zman

You're most definitely factually incorrect about that.

The Ford dealer is an independent organization which has nothing whatsoever to do, legally, with the manufacturer. The only thing confusing you is the name on the building.

In the case of an independent heating contractor who installs Viessmann, the situation is identical. An independent company selling and servicing a manufacturer's product.


Hat,
What would you do with this if you were the guy in Rhode Island left a voicemail about a job hundreds of miles away? You might forward the message to the rep in that area. Where does it go from there? Maybe the rep talks to the installer who tells him the owner is nuts? Is the rep expected to go look at every call he gets like this?
Even if the job is not quite right, the rep is unlikely to call the installer out on it. It could cost him the sales of hundreds of units down the road.
In the US market, There is not a manufacture of boilers that has any control over the installers. Any boiler company that tries to control it on their own would lose sales and go out of business.

Robert O'Brien

Energy Kinetics does not use the sacrosanct normal distribution chain. They are the manufacturer,rep and wholesaler all in one.

Paul48

This all goes back to the certification discussion, from a while back. I'm not sure what the answer is, but people are being ripped-off daily. Everyone knows it, and it's allowed to continue. Whether, or not this persons complaints are warranted, is not the issue. We've all seen the pictures of butchered installs. How many times do you have to blame the victims selection skills, before you can feel good about this going on?

jonny88

Last week I went to a supply house I use because they were introducing HTP to their store.All products were on display etc.Reps were there who going to be representing their territory.They promised they would come to job site if I had a problem with a unit.And I know that this is true as Langans Plumbing in Jersey use a lot of their products and when needed got support from HTP.As Hat said IBC were introducing their boiler in Boston.I have no affiliation with the company other than I like their product,the trainer for IBC came to my house on Long Island after his demo inBoston.He was on his way back to Wisconsin.He went over my boiler changed a few parameters etc all because I asked over the phone about having a ignition that I thought was a bit rough.He spent 2 hrs at my house explaining everything to me.How much?Nothing.That is why I will use their products.Ask @Rich about HTP.Do they give you support.My problem with this situation is that a rep set up a date to meet the HO. and never came.To the OP please correct me if I am wrong.Damn I needed a Sep4 and couldn't get it.Bob Rohr got me one in 3 days.Support.BTW I will be installing a Veissmann in 2 weeks as I know it is a great company.JC49 did the rep say he was coming to your house?
Ask the Navien rep on Long Island how busy he is.They hired a guy to go around fixing boilers some that are bad and of course some that got installed incorrectly.They are looking for someone else at least they were a month ago.Its a tough call but Veissmann are large enough and should not want their reputation dragged through the mud like this where you have a company claiming 20 yrs experience with their product.Lets see.

hot_rod

Of course if more manufacturers would monitor HeatingHelp they could avoid or at least de-escalate situations like this.

A simple, quick, polite phone call goes a long way still.